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Old
06-08-2008, 12:39 AM
  #26
DuklaNation
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This guy could put up 70+ points IMO. He needs to play on a scoring line the whole year. Martin has really screwed up his development. Put Matthias on the 3rd line for his rookie year. Sign or trade for a scoring RW. Zednik should never see the top 2 lines ever again. The 2nd line looks solid.

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06-08-2008, 03:31 AM
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Originally Posted by DuklaNation View Post
This guy could put up 70+ points IMO. He needs to play on a scoring line the whole year. Martin has really screwed up his development. Put Matthias on the 3rd line for his rookie year. Sign or trade for a scoring RW. Zednik should never see the top 2 lines ever again. The 2nd line looks solid.
How exactly has Martin screwed up his development?

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06-08-2008, 08:25 AM
  #28
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How exactly has Martin screwed up his development?
Yeah I can't agree with DuklaNation either. He sent him down to the minors once or twice to get his game back and it worked pretty nicely. He was having a good turnaround in the second half. Plus he really started getting into it, he played to the crowd at one point with the Hulk Hogan sign,

Olesz has only improved under Martin, but you have to recognize that he's not a 100% offensive gifted player, he's a 2 way player. And that's a good thing, because you need that kind of strong, Lehtinen-like presence to help you win. Our top draft choices have for the most part made some good sense:

Bouwmeester - #1 defenseman
Weiss - #2 playmaking center, leadership skills
Horton - Power forward, eventual top line
Olesz - 2 way player
Frolik - sniper
Ellerby - defensive defenseman

There is a method to this madness, and it is designed to fill out the team at every needed position (ok besides goalie but I guess once again, we just acquire those anyway).

I'm always hoping Olesz becomes more offensive but I'm not really disappointed with him at all. The kid is quite young and keeps getting better each season. It's a learning experience, not everyone just walks in and dominates. I'm still quite happy with what I've seen from him so far, he knows what he has to do, he's a smart kid.

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06-08-2008, 11:44 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DuklaNation View Post
This guy could put up 70+ points IMO. He needs to play on a scoring line the whole year. Martin has really screwed up his development. Put Matthias on the 3rd line for his rookie year. Sign or trade for a scoring RW. Zednik should never see the top 2 lines ever again. The 2nd line looks solid.
Zednik did fine, you obviously don't know what you're saying. Don't like it when people bash Martin for no reason.

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06-08-2008, 02:20 PM
  #30
StrangeVision
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Well, Martin did admit to being regretful for bringing Olesz up too soon. Other than that, though, Martin has done a good job with Olesz.

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06-08-2008, 02:53 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by hoax15 View Post
Zednik did fine, you obviously don't know what you're saying. Don't like it when people bash Martin for no reason.
Zednik was HORRIBLE until right before he was injured. He finally had been on a hot streak but he had gone something like 30 games without a goal or something like that. You CANNOT have that on your top two lines if you want to make the playoffs.

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06-08-2008, 02:55 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by hoax15 View Post
Zednik did fine, you obviously don't know what you're saying. Don't like it when people bash Martin for no reason.
Zednik was a disaster, he didnt score for like 21 games. He had a good week before he tragically got hurt but he was far from "fine" last year.

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06-08-2008, 08:04 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by StrangeVision View Post
Well, Martin did admit to being regretful for bringing Olesz up too soon. Other than that, though, Martin has done a good job with Olesz.
Well, that was Keenan's decision to keep him up in 05-06. The GM dictates personnel movement. But you're right, Martin did recognize that they brought Olesz up to soon, and admitted it to the press.

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06-08-2008, 08:08 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Panthers Rock View Post
Yeah I can't agree with DuklaNation either. He sent him down to the minors once or twice to get his game back and it worked pretty nicely. He was having a good turnaround in the second half. Plus he really started getting into it, he played to the crowd at one point with the Hulk Hogan sign,

Olesz has only improved under Martin, but you have to recognize that he's not a 100% offensive gifted player, he's a 2 way player. And that's a good thing, because you need that kind of strong, Lehtinen-like presence to help you win. Our top draft choices have for the most part made some good sense:

Bouwmeester - #1 defenseman
Weiss - #2 playmaking center, leadership skills
Horton - Power forward, eventual top line
Olesz - 2 way player
Frolik - sniper
Ellerby - defensive defenseman

There is a method to this madness, and it is designed to fill out the team at every needed position (ok besides goalie but I guess once again, we just acquire those anyway).

I'm always hoping Olesz becomes more offensive but I'm not really disappointed with him at all. The kid is quite young and keeps getting better each season. It's a learning experience, not everyone just walks in and dominates. I'm still quite happy with what I've seen from him so far, he knows what he has to do, he's a smart kid.
I agree with the rest of your post, but I wouldn't classify Ellerby as just a defensive defenseman. He's a real good puckmoving defenseman that excels at making good breakout passes and can also rush the puck up through the neutral zone due to his great speed, long reach, and puckhandling ability.

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06-08-2008, 08:40 PM
  #35
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Willie Mitchell can make good breakout passes, as can Bryan Allen and several other defensive dmen. That doesn't make them offensive at all. While I agree Ellerby does have some potential for being a solid outlet passer out of his own end, I don't think we'll see him skating the puck up very much. It'd be nice if he could do that but unless he develops a lot in the AHL, I'd expect a Bryan Allen type defender in Ellerby.

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06-08-2008, 08:54 PM
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Willie Mitchell can make good breakout passes, as can Bryan Allen and several other defensive dmen. That doesn't make them offensive at all. While I agree Ellerby does have some potential for being a solid outlet passer out of his own end, I don't think we'll see him skating the puck up very much. It'd be nice if he could do that but unless he develops a lot in the AHL, I'd expect a Bryan Allen type defender in Ellerby.
Mitchell and Allen can make decent breakout passes, not "good". One of the strengths of Ellerby's game is his transition game. And why don't you think he'll be skating the puck up very much? I agree that it probably won't be as much as he does in the WHL, but he's a brilliant skater with one of the most beautiful and effortless strides I have ever seen. There's no reason why he shouldn't be able to also use that asset in the NHL. He doesn't need to develop a lot in the AHL to become the player he's projected to be, he's already mostly there as far as 'the player he can be.' He does need more development probably, but that development is just experience. He just needs some pro hockey experience.

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06-08-2008, 09:10 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by MisterBouw View Post
Mitchell and Allen can make decent breakout passes, not "good". One of the strengths of Ellerby's game is his transition game. And why don't you think he'll be skating the puck up very much? I agree that it probably won't be as much as he does in the WHL, but he's a brilliant skater with one of the most beautiful and effortless strides I have ever seen. There's no reason why he shouldn't be able to also use that asset in the NHL. He doesn't need to develop a lot in the AHL to become the player he's projected to be, he's already mostly there as far as 'the player he can be.' He does need more development probably, but that development is just experience. He just needs some pro hockey experience.
I've seen clips but I've never really watched him play much so I can't comment like you can on him, but I'd say if he really was that effective at skating the puck up, I would have thought that he'd have higher assists totals at least. I'm not even talking about the goals, of which two in the WHL isn't a grand total by any means. In using his skating to his optimal ability rushing the puck up, there should be some indication on the scoresheet here and there. Twenty-one assists or however many he had aren't very many in the WHL that would indicate he's involved in offense at all, and one aspect of offense is skating up the puck. Maybe they don't go hand-in-hand exactly, but I'd expect some correlation with the ability to rush the puck and translated offensive numbers. Ellerby even refers to himself as trying to be a stay-at-home type guy in some interview I read, but as I said, I'm only going off of stats and some limited clips.

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06-08-2008, 09:31 PM
  #38
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I've seen clips but I've never really watched him play much so I can't comment like you can on him, but I'd say if he really was that effective at skating the puck up, I would have thought that he'd have higher assists totals at least. I'm not even talking about the goals, of which two in the WHL isn't a grand total by any means. In using his skating to his optimal ability rushing the puck up, there should be some indication on the scoresheet here and there. Twenty-one assists or however many he had aren't very many in the WHL that would indicate he's involved in offense at all, and one aspect of offense is skating up the puck. Maybe they don't go hand-in-hand exactly, but I'd expect some correlation with the ability to rush the puck and translated offensive numbers. Ellerby even refers to himself as trying to be a stay-at-home type guy in some interview I read, but as I said, I'm only going off of stats and some limited clips.
Well, he did struggle for a bit for about the first month of the season, like I said in an earlier thread, I think it's because he really didn't have an 'offseason'. Duane Sutter even commented on this in an intermission segment this season where they talked about some of our prospects. He said his nephew Brandon also struggled early, and he thought it was because of the toll the Super Series and the required training for it took on them as they were only 17 year olds, and to play for a full year at the levels they were playing at is a lot for kids that young. I think in Kamloops he only had like 2 assists. But in Moose Jaw he had like 20. So pro-rate that to about 27 assists for the year, that's not bad for a defenseman in the WHL who played for two mediocre teams. Moose Jaw in particular doesn't have any great forwards, their offense isn't exciting at all. I'd even argue a big reason they made the playoffs is because of the help that Ellerby's transition game provided to their offense, and the acquisition of Ty Wishart mid-season, who's a good two-way defenseman but more offensively minded than Ellerby.

Ellerby has also more than once said that he patterns his game after Pronger and Bouw. And he's also referred to himself as a big, strong smooth skating defenseman. Like I've said, he brings a lot of facets to the game. He's not only very solid in his own end, he brings those other elements as well.

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06-08-2008, 09:50 PM
  #39
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Ellerby in my mind seems as a big question mark. He could bottom out as a 5th or 6th defensman but he definitely has the raw tools to be a #1 or #2 depending on whether he reaches his max end potential. He has no physical deficiencies holding him back as he's huge, so provided he puts on some weight to become stronger, he'll have no issue there. It all comes down to his hockey sense. If he can develop comfort playing on the offensive side of the puck, he probably has some untapped potential there as well. I really hope he can pull it all together.

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06-08-2008, 10:17 PM
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Ellerby in my mind seems as a big question mark. He could bottom out as a 5th or 6th defensman but he definitely has the raw tools to be a #1 or #2 depending on whether he reaches his max end potential. He has no physical deficiencies holding him back as he's huge, so provided he puts on some weight to become stronger, he'll have no issue there. It all comes down to his hockey sense. If he can develop comfort playing on the offensive side of the puck, he probably has some untapped potential there as well. I really hope he can pull it all together.
I kind of agree with your assessment, but I really can't see him being anything less than a top 4 d-man. Like you touched on, he really doesn't have any weaknesses, and it's really all there for him, and he seems to have the work ethic and an edge to his game. I will again rebute your beliefs that he could possibly develop into a true offensive defenseman, but you knew that was coming.

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06-08-2008, 10:41 PM
  #41
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I kind of agree with your assessment, but I really can't see him being anything less than a top 4 d-man. Like you touched on, he really doesn't have any weaknesses, and it's really all there for him, and he seems to have the work ethic and an edge to his game. I will again rebute your beliefs that he could possibly develop into a true offensive defenseman, but you knew that was coming.
Haha, well I don't mean "true offensive defensman" i.e. Rafalski or whoever, I mean someone who has an offensive side to his game as well and that gets involved in the rush here and there, just as Jbo does. Jaybo isn't a true offensive defensman, rather he's a two way solid player. Ellerby could end up being a 4-10 goal scorer, maybe 20 assists as well, a 20-30 point solid defender, but who knows. We'll see how he progresses. I believe that if he gets very comfortable on the defensive side of the puck, we'll possibly see some offensive improvement down the road from him, but he has to gain confidence and consistency for that to happen. Can't wait to see him play for us to see what happens.

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06-09-2008, 12:02 AM
  #42
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Haha, well I don't mean "true offensive defensman" i.e. Rafalski or whoever, I mean someone who has an offensive side to his game as well and that gets involved in the rush here and there, just as Jbo does. Jaybo isn't a true offensive defensman, rather he's a two way solid player. Ellerby could end up being a 4-10 goal scorer, maybe 20 assists as well, a 20-30 point solid defender, but who knows. We'll see how he progresses. I believe that if he gets very comfortable on the defensive side of the puck, we'll possibly see some offensive improvement down the road from him, but he has to gain confidence and consistency for that to happen. Can't wait to see him play for us to see what happens.
That's what I mean, I don't think Ellerby will ever put up 40+ points. He could approach 40, but I think his career goal scoring totals will be similar to Allen's, maybe slightly higher. He should have more assists every year than Allen though, by probably 10-15 at least. So figure maybe 20-30 points, like Salei numbers. I could however, if he plays on a team with a stacked blueline and great forwards, see him putting up really nice point totals later on in his career due to the sheer fact that he would put up so many assists due to his good breakout passing ability and a team with great forwards would finish a lot of those chances off off the rush.

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06-09-2008, 12:06 AM
  #43
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Alright guys we're getting off track. The thread is about Olesz, not Ellerby. Please get back on topic, thanks

IMO, I see Olesz being signed for several years (not necessarily a Horton/Weiss contract) pretty soon. I don't imagine there will be much issue in keeping him here for a good while.

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06-09-2008, 07:06 AM
  #44
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Ole-Ole-Ole-Ole-Ole-Oleszzzzzz



There ya go.

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06-09-2008, 07:26 PM
  #45
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Well, Martin did admit to being regretful for bringing Olesz up too soon. Other than that, though, Martin has done a good job with Olesz.
Thanks. I recall Martin admitting that. Also, he should have left him in Europe for at least 1 more season. Ask veteran Euros and they will admit that 1 or 2 extra years back home is usually needed.

Zednik is a mediocre player and has no business being on the 1st line on any team in NHL. Look at his career and prove me wrong. Why do you think he signed in Florida? He's a decent second line scoring winger. But the 2nd line is cemented currently. Therefore, only spot is on the 3rd line. Jokinen needs one 60-80 pt player on his wing.

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06-09-2008, 09:46 PM
  #46
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Thanks. I recall Martin admitting that. Also, he should have left him in Europe for at least 1 more season. Ask veteran Euros and they will admit that 1 or 2 extra years back home is usually needed.

Zednik is a mediocre player and has no business being on the 1st line on any team in NHL. Look at his career and prove me wrong. Why do you think he signed in Florida? He's a decent second line scoring winger. But the 2nd line is cemented currently. Therefore, only spot is on the 3rd line. Jokinen needs one 60-80 pt player on his wing.
No, Martin was not the GM at the time, Keenan was. It was Keenan's decision to either keep him up or send him down. All Martin did was say that the Panthers rushed Olesz to the NHL, he didn't say that "he" rushed him.

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06-09-2008, 10:55 PM
  #47
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No, Martin was not the GM at the time, Keenan was. It was Keenan's decision to either keep him up or send him down. All Martin did was say that the Panthers rushed Olesz to the NHL, he didn't say that "he" rushed him.
Keenan was gone after his 1st year, so Martin could've handled it his own way after that. He should've kept Olesz in the AHL for a whole season then. Anything to give him top line minutes every game. That is how you develop properly. I still say he didnt develop him properly at all and had the opportunity to fix it yet just threw him out there. Oddly, Keenan was the one who turned Jokinen's career around after it was obvious he wasnt ready for the NHL years ago.

Anyways, obviously people like to argue semantics instead of the real point which is Olesz' potential. The new coach must play him on the 1st line the whole year (with a decent scoring RW). Then you may know what his future holds. Otherwise he will be a solid 3rd liner for a few years which will lead him to contract in the RSL.

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06-09-2008, 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by DuklaNation View Post
Keenan was gone after his 1st year, so Martin could've handled it his own way after that. He should've kept Olesz in the AHL for a whole season then. Anything to give him top line minutes every game. That is how you develop properly. I still say he didnt develop him properly at all and had the opportunity to fix it yet just threw him out there. Oddly, Keenan was the one who turned Jokinen's career around after it was obvious he wasnt ready for the NHL years ago.

Anyways, obviously people like to argue semantics instead of the real point which is Olesz' potential. The new coach must play him on the 1st line the whole year (with a decent scoring RW). Then you may know what his future holds. Otherwise he will be a solid 3rd liner for a few years which will lead him to contract in the RSL.
Maybe he could have sent him to the AHL for a whole year, but that's easy to do when your team is a contender and doesn't NEED young players like Olesz to be fairly big contributors. The Panthers didn't have that luxury. He never should have made the Panthers in 05-06 in the first place, and that is on Keenan. Then he would have had an extra year of development and Martin wouldn't have had the temptation to have him remain with the big club the next season. He did send him down for a few games though because Martin felt he wasn't shooting the puck enough and was looking to pass to often, and Olesz repsonded well so he brought him back up. He then played well for the remainder of the season and mixed his shot/pass selection up more evenly. And he played well for us this year, scoring 6 points in his first 6 games I think. Then he got injured, came back for a while then got injured again, but when he finally returned to the lineup he produced at the best offensive pace he's ever done for us.

BTW, I fail to see what Keenan did for Jokinen years ago has any bearing on this topic. He was the one who rushed Olesz to the NHL, obviously he didn't help Olesz out there. And I don't see how you can totally absolve Keenan and just blame Martin in this situation. Going by your theory of how Olesz's development or lack thereof evolved, they should both share equal blame.

I agree the new coach must play Olesz on the 1st line, which is what Martin did down the stretch BTW, and I think he has definitely earned a top six role.

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