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Old
06-07-2008, 11:02 AM
  #26
DutchShamrock
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PukkuMikku View Post
I have my issues with Bettman, too.

However, he is not stupid, and the league is at its best in over a decade.

Every year, and especially in the near future there will be an even greater influx of highly skilled talent coming into the league.

Yes, there was a lockout, but you have to be blind or ignorant to not understand that the lockout was the BEST THING to happen to the league.

If not for the lockout, NOTHING would have gotten fixed.

The league is better, faster, now then it has been in a LONG time.

Players are stronger, faster, and more skilled then they have ever been.

Hockey equipment is better then it has ever been.

Training is better then it has ever been.

League revenue is on the RISE.

Interest in the league is on the rise.


IMO, the NHL is in the best shape, primed to be a hit, then it has been in a very long time. With a simple national TV deal (ESPN, not enough games on NBC, need games on ABC, what ever not only Versus) the NHL would rise.
Well, maybe I'm blind but I'm not stupid. First off, he has 2 lockouts to his credit and neither accomplished anything.

What got fixed? The league is spending more on players now than before the lockout. The minimum payroll level is higher than the payroll max when the cap started. You can say that is a barometer of the league's strength but I see it as a comedy of errors. Teams couldn't afford their $20m rosters 5 years ago but suddenly they are all healthy... Now to me, they either lied (more than likely) about their health or the fans are picking up the tab (fact) with skyrocketing ticket prices. That's the source of the escalating revenue... not the paltry TV contracts or the sponsors.

The lockout was supposed to 'protect' us fans from the players (not the gms right?) and their higher salaries and a mere 3 years into eutopia we're paying out the hiney for an inferior product.

Last I checked, Bettman doesn't develop hockey equipment, he doesn't train players, he doesn't raise European babies into hockey monsters so I don't see how he gets credit for that. He's on the verge of a crisis in Europe with losing tons of talent new and old to the KHL and it's about to stike midnight on his cheap transfer agreement... then he'll be stuck with pumpkins in his bloated 30 team league, rotting pumpkins in the sunbelt no less. His failure to come to a fair agreement is going to cut off his necessary supply of talent sooner than later. Maybe 'cut-off' is strong but its will be diminished.

Everyone thinks we finally have parity but we had it before the lockout... 12 different conference finalists in the 3 years prior to the lost season. The league made a fatal assumption in believing winning was tied to salaries instead of drafting. The cap isn't hurting the league, but wait until we really see the problems with early free agency... superstar kids moving all over the place like the NBA and NFL. At least there, the kids play right away so you see them for at least 4 years or so in the league. The NHL is different in that development takes much longer. Fans get attatched, they relate to certain players. Now they're flying the coop (probably to the powerhouses) at 27 or younger which is going to alienate the fragile fans bases that are lucky enough to draft such stars. The kicker is that the younger free agency was dangled to get the cap. Watch how this error completely reverses the precious balance in 3 years.

Bettman isn't killing the NHL but none of his solutions fix the problems. Most of the problems to him aren't the real problems plaguing the league or the fans' attention span. He's just... off. Plain and simple he was hired to keep contracts down and to beat the union, and to line the pockets of the owners (which was through expansion). He made them money. The state of the game is far down on the list and I'll blame Bettman all the way.


Last edited by DutchShamrock: 06-08-2008 at 11:24 AM. Reason: spelling
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06-07-2008, 11:18 AM
  #27
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Well said, you should post this on the latest Bettman thread-

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=520919

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06-07-2008, 03:30 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PukkuMikku View Post
I have my issues with Bettman, too.

However, he is not stupid, and the league is at its best in over a decade.

Every year, and especially in the near future there will be an even greater influx of highly skilled talent coming into the league.

Yes, there was a lockout, but you have to be blind or ignorant to not understand that the lockout was the BEST THING to happen to the league.

If not for the lockout, NOTHING would have gotten fixed.

The league is better, faster, now then it has been in a LONG time.

Players are stronger, faster, and more skilled then they have ever been.

Hockey equipment is better then it has ever been.

Training is better then it has ever been.

League revenue is on the RISE.

Interest in the league is on the rise.


There will always be people who don't get it.

But MLB is a joke. Full of controversy and overpaid money grubbing, cheating, pansies that sit out half a season because of a groin twinge.

NBA is a joke, too, bunch of millionaire 18 year olds thinking they are gangster.

NFL, is better then MLB and the NBA, however not without its controversy.


IMO, the NHL is in the best shape, primed to be a hit, then it has been in a very long time. With a simple national TV deal (ESPN, not enough games on NBC, need games on ABC, what ever not only Versus) the NHL would rise.
I can't think of any reason why the lockout would have helped in any of those areas.

Some of the rule/equipment changes, sure, but missing one season of hockey doesn't suddenly make players bigger, stronger or faster.

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Old
06-07-2008, 03:51 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZYanksRule View Post
He's not a good public speaker at all... he does sound very nervous when he talks, and quite frankly, that nervousness makes me think he's trying to slink away from the truth... that's how he sounds when he talks.
Yeah I thought he kind of sounded and looked lik he was lying to the court or something. But I do feel bad for the guy, I'm not sure how he was when he was working with the NBA but I think all these haters and everything has just flat out ruined his social life.

But does anyone know if he was hated like this in the NBA? Because i know he was in the counsel or something like that. I'm just going to bring up a quote I saw on someone else's sig but don't flame me if it's totally wrong as I can't remember the whole thing!

"I gave Gary a hockey puck once and he spent an hour trying to open it."

I think that just kind of proved he wasn't the greatest hockey fan before he was made the commish and I think that's what really makes his choices quite stupid.

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06-07-2008, 10:58 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Winged Wheel View Post
With Bettman, the NHL could do worse (albeit not much worse) but they sure could do better. We need someone with experience in management and knows the game (the way it was pre-Bettman, pre-lockout preferably)

Off the top of my head....Brett Hull, Chris Chelios, Trevor Linden, Wayne Gretzky, Scotty Bowman, Steve Yzerman, etc...

Of course, it'd have to be someone the Owners like and respect as well, someone the Owners could have confidence in.
Brendan Shanahan?

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06-07-2008, 11:53 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forechecker View Post
I wouldn't be surprised if Bettman has Parkinson's the way he was shaking on Wednesday night.
Yeah I was thinking the same thing. It wasnt just his hands shaking, his head was shaking as well very noticeably.

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06-07-2008, 11:56 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mugerya View Post
Well, maybe I'm bline but I'm not stupid. First off, he has 2 lockouts to his credit and neither accomplished anything.

What got fixed? The league is spending more on players now than before the lockout. The minimum payroll level is higher than the payroll max when the cap started. You can say that is a barometer of the league's strength but I see it as a comedy of errors. Teams couldn't afford there $20m rosters 5 years ago but suddenly they are all healthy... Now to me, they either lied (more than likely) about their health or the fans are picking up the tab (fact) with skyrocketing ticket prices. That's the source of the escalating revenue... not the paltry TV contracts or the sponsors.

The lockout was supposed to 'protect' us fans from the players (not the gms right?) and their higher salaries and a mere 3 years into eutopia we're paying out the hiney for an inferior product.

Last I checked, Bettman doesn't develop hockey equipment, he doesn't train players, he doesn't raise European babies into hockey monsters so I don't see how he gets credit for that. He's on the verge of a crisis in Europe with losing tons of talent new and old to the KHL and it's about to stike midnight on his cheap transfer agreement... then he'll be stuck with pumpkins in his bloated 30 team league, rotting pumpkins in the sunbelt no less. His failure to come to a fair agreement is going to cut off his necessary supply of talent sooner than later. Maybe 'cut-off' is strong but its will be diminished.

Everyone thinks we finally have parity but we had it before the lockout... 12 different conference finalists in the 3 years prior to the lost season. The league made a fatal assumption in believing winning was tied to salaries instead of drafting. The cap isn't hurting the league, but wait until we really see the problems with early free agency... superstar kids moving all over the place like the NBA and NFL. At least there, the kids play right away so you see them for at least 4 years or so in the league. The NHL is different in that development takes much longer. Fans get attatched, they relate to certain players. Now they're flying the coop (probably to the powerhouses) at 27 or younger which is going to alienate the fragile fans bases that are lucky enough to draft such stars. The kicker is that the younger free agency was dangled to get the cap. Watch how this error completely reverses the precious balance in 3 years.

Bettman isn't killing the NHL but none of his solutions fix the problems. Most of the problems to him aren't the real problems plaguing the league or the fans' attention span. He's just... off. Plain and simple he was hired to keep contracts done and to beat the union, and to line the pockets of the owners (which was through expansion). He made them money. The state of the game is far down on the list and I'll blame Bettman all the way.
I dont think this could have been said any more perfectly.

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06-11-2008, 02:23 AM
  #33
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well i met gary bettman at work, i didnt wanna shake his hand, and i couldnt have a simple hockey conversation with him he has no idea what hes talking about. we talked about the rangers and everything. he made no sense. i asked him about the cup and what its like and hes like "i dont know, the players earn it" im like ***...he also said he doesnt know how to ice skate...HOW ABOUT THAT FOR A COMMISSIONER

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06-11-2008, 08:33 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ragshockey88 View Post
...he also said he doesnt know how to ice skate...HOW ABOUT THAT FOR A COMMISSIONER
My boss couldn't program his way out of a paper bag, but still manages a full department of programmers pretty damn well...

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06-11-2008, 09:19 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mugerya View Post
Well, maybe I'm blind but I'm not stupid. First off, he has 2 lockouts to his credit and neither accomplished anything.

What got fixed? The league is spending more on players now than before the lockout. The minimum payroll level is higher than the payroll max when the cap started. You can say that is a barometer of the league's strength but I see it as a comedy of errors. Teams couldn't afford their $20m rosters 5 years ago but suddenly they are all healthy... Now to me, they either lied (more than likely) about their health or the fans are picking up the tab (fact) with skyrocketing ticket prices. That's the source of the escalating revenue... not the paltry TV contracts or the sponsors.

The lockout was supposed to 'protect' us fans from the players (not the gms right?) and their higher salaries and a mere 3 years into eutopia we're paying out the hiney for an inferior product.

Last I checked, Bettman doesn't develop hockey equipment, he doesn't train players, he doesn't raise European babies into hockey monsters so I don't see how he gets credit for that. He's on the verge of a crisis in Europe with losing tons of talent new and old to the KHL and it's about to stike midnight on his cheap transfer agreement... then he'll be stuck with pumpkins in his bloated 30 team league, rotting pumpkins in the sunbelt no less. His failure to come to a fair agreement is going to cut off his necessary supply of talent sooner than later. Maybe 'cut-off' is strong but its will be diminished.

Everyone thinks we finally have parity but we had it before the lockout... 12 different conference finalists in the 3 years prior to the lost season. The league made a fatal assumption in believing winning was tied to salaries instead of drafting. The cap isn't hurting the league, but wait until we really see the problems with early free agency... superstar kids moving all over the place like the NBA and NFL. At least there, the kids play right away so you see them for at least 4 years or so in the league. The NHL is different in that development takes much longer. Fans get attatched, they relate to certain players. Now they're flying the coop (probably to the powerhouses) at 27 or younger which is going to alienate the fragile fans bases that are lucky enough to draft such stars. The kicker is that the younger free agency was dangled to get the cap. Watch how this error completely reverses the precious balance in 3 years.

Bettman isn't killing the NHL but none of his solutions fix the problems. Most of the problems to him aren't the real problems plaguing the league or the fans' attention span. He's just... off. Plain and simple he was hired to keep contracts down and to beat the union, and to line the pockets of the owners (which was through expansion). He made them money. The state of the game is far down on the list and I'll blame Bettman all the way.

Tremendous post...Couldn't agree anymore!

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06-11-2008, 10:30 AM
  #36
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I always thought that he has done a good job with a product that is tv-unfriendly. If only he could ice skate.

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06-11-2008, 11:34 AM
  #37
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i may sound ignorant, but give someone the job who has a hockey background, no one at this point can make it worse. i think the worst possible thing i had ever heard was bettman proposing changing the nets, id find him and snap his neck if that were to happen

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06-11-2008, 12:37 PM
  #38
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what was the supersonics fiasco?

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06-11-2008, 01:54 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by ragshockey88 View Post
i may sound ignorant, but give someone the job who has a hockey background, no one at this point can make it worse. i think the worst possible thing i had ever heard was bettman proposing changing the nets, id find him and snap his neck if that were to happen
I don't really agree with this argument. The commisioner doesn't make rule changes or impact the product on the ice beyond the fiscal and locational aspects. He doesn't change how the game is played. The Board of Governors, made up of hockey minds and former players, change the rules and the product on the ice. Bettman may try to influence them but if the BoGs can't resist him over the tremendous pull of tradition and history then they deserve to have a product that fails and the blame will fall on them.

I don't blame the league for seeking a mind that can pull the league out of the fringe and into the limelight and truckloads of cash. The problem is that Bettman failed at every major mandate he was given.

-He was brought in after salary disclosure became a tool for the union. Players knew what eachother were making... they discovered their value and salaries rose. Bettman was supposed to surpress that rise, he was supposed to bring the union to their knees after the first lockout. Failed. His CBA completely backfired and caused salaries to rise at an even faster rate.

-He was brought in to expand the league. Accomplished but he still managed to turn it into a failure. His shortsightedness and greed lured him into the sunbelt... an untapped market at the time and with a few exceptions markets that were untapped for good reason. The weak franchises (PHX, Nash, Fla, TB, Atl, Car) are all moves or new franchises under his tenure. He saw an immediate revenue source from owners willing to pay the franchise fee but he misread the market by bailing on the northern franchise and prospective cities too soon. Now the strong Canadian dollar isn't being sunk into the NHL at a rate as much as it could be with Winnepeg, Quebec, Hamilton etc being left untapped. Not to mention the northern US cities that wanted in. To compound his problems, many of these cities became the squeeky wheels that brought on the 2nd lockout. Cities that couldn't compete financially because their market blow for hockey.

That's not even getting into the dilouted product that is the result of a serious expansion.

-He was supposed to break the union and bring in cost certainty. Utter failure. http://tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=240324&l...=headlines_nhl Last year's average salary was higher than the pre-lockout average. He justified this lockout by promising lower ticket prices that lasted all of 1 season.

-I'm confident that one day we'll find out that the commisioner and the owners fudged the ledger books when they cried poor prior to the lockout. I'm positive they hid revenues to show losses, losses blamed on player salaries. I find it hard to believe that teams spending $22m and supposedly hemoraging badly rebounded in under 4 years with an entire year of lost revenue. How can they be forced to pay at least $34m this past season and make money while they lost enourmous amounts while spending $12m less? Are they making more than $12m now in ticket sales and gimmick jerseys? Or did they hide revenue sources (TV contracts, concession sales, luxury boxes) prior to the lockout? What seems logical to you?

-I'm curious to see how his failure to work out a deal with Russia on a transfer agreement plays out in the next few years. His last tactic of stonewalling them seems to have galvanized the Russians even more and are now forming their competing league. His 30 team legacy is riding on this outcome. If Russia steals too many players the NHL will be horribly weak.

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06-11-2008, 08:04 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mugerya View Post
I don't really agree with this argument. The commisioner doesn't make rule changes or impact the product on the ice beyond the fiscal and locational aspects. He doesn't change how the game is played. The Board of Governors, made up of hockey minds and former players, change the rules and the product on the ice. Bettman may try to influence them but if the BoGs can't resist him over the tremendous pull of tradition and history then they deserve to have a product that fails and the blame will fall on them.

I don't blame the league for seeking a mind that can pull the league out of the fringe and into the limelight and truckloads of cash. The problem is that Bettman failed at every major mandate he was given.

-He was brought in after salary disclosure became a tool for the union. Players knew what eachother were making... they discovered their value and salaries rose. Bettman was supposed to surpress that rise, he was supposed to bring the union to their knees after the first lockout. Failed. His CBA completely backfired and caused salaries to rise at an even faster rate.

-He was brought in to expand the league. Accomplished but he still managed to turn it into a failure. His shortsightedness and greed lured him into the sunbelt... an untapped market at the time and with a few exceptions markets that were untapped for good reason. The weak franchises (PHX, Nash, Fla, TB, Atl, Car) are all moves or new franchises under his tenure. He saw an immediate revenue source from owners willing to pay the franchise fee but he misread the market by bailing on the northern franchise and prospective cities too soon. Now the strong Canadian dollar isn't being sunk into the NHL at a rate as much as it could be with Winnepeg, Quebec, Hamilton etc being left untapped. Not to mention the northern US cities that wanted in. To compound his problems, many of these cities became the squeeky wheels that brought on the 2nd lockout. Cities that couldn't compete financially because their market blow for hockey.

That's not even getting into the dilouted product that is the result of a serious expansion.

-He was supposed to break the union and bring in cost certainty. Utter failure. http://tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=240324&l...=headlines_nhl Last year's average salary was higher than the pre-lockout average. He justified this lockout by promising lower ticket prices that lasted all of 1 season.

-I'm confident that one day we'll find out that the commisioner and the owners fudged the ledger books when they cried poor prior to the lockout. I'm positive they hid revenues to show losses, losses blamed on player salaries. I find it hard to believe that teams spending $22m and supposedly hemoraging badly rebounded in under 4 years with an entire year of lost revenue. How can they be forced to pay at least $34m this past season and make money while they lost enourmous amounts while spending $12m less? Are they making more than $12m now in ticket sales and gimmick jerseys? Or did they hide revenue sources (TV contracts, concession sales, luxury boxes) prior to the lockout? What seems logical to you?

-I'm curious to see how his failure to work out a deal with Russia on a transfer agreement plays out in the next few years. His last tactic of stonewalling them seems to have galvanized the Russians even more and are now forming their competing league. His 30 team legacy is riding on this outcome. If Russia steals too many players the NHL will be horribly weak.



only place your wrong there is that TB is a weak franchise.

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06-11-2008, 08:16 PM
  #41
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Gary Bettman is an assclown that thinks promoting one player and one city is good for the nhl. I'm sorry but no arguement will change my opinion that hes clueless and in all honesty dangerous (with his willingness to change rules, equipment and tamper with the game to create a better "product") to the sport we love. Hockey is not a "product" , its a game of passion and artistry and fierce brutality. I see no passion, artistry or brutality in gary bettman, therefore i reject him as hockeys commissioner...

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06-11-2008, 10:39 PM
  #42
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For all those who think Bettman screwed up with expansion, I think you're full of crap. It's easy to say now, but in the early 90s when hockey was gaining popularity, you would have been an idiot if you thought the league shouldn't have expanded beyond 21 teams. Gretzky making the Kings popular showed hockey could work in southern areas. Anybody in Bettman's shoes would have done the same thing. And it did lead to a very good (by NHL standards) TV deal with FOX at the time.

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06-12-2008, 07:47 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Dubinsky4Calder08 View Post
only place your wrong there is that TB is a weak franchise.
You're right, I should have qualified it with 'was'. I threw them in there because they were one of the teams that regularly fielded teams with a low $20m payroll.

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