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Old
06-10-2008, 07:16 PM
  #126
mercury
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ikeane View Post
How about James Wisniewski from Chicago for Umberger or Wizzer and a 2009 pick for Lupul?
I'd do Umberger for Wisniewski and either Crawford or Unice. How much do you think Wisniewski wants on his new contract?

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Old
06-10-2008, 07:30 PM
  #127
Winston Wolf
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Umberger for Wisniewski straight up is a deal I'd make. I really like the way Wisniewski plays.

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Old
06-10-2008, 10:58 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Sandlak View Post
You said 'major', doofus.

This is a silly argument that has somehow derived from your silly post. You're sounding the death-knell on a Canucks organization that is actually very healthy in terms of both prospects and current players. They've just shed some problematic contracts, have cap space to burn, and have a team that is a couple of scorers away from being a contender, by most accounts.

You got pissy and overreacted when people here thought that overpaying for your players was a bad idea.

calm down, you are giving the rest of us West Coasters a bad rep. chill out, go hug a tree in stanley park.

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Old
06-11-2008, 01:34 AM
  #129
Winston Wolf
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Originally Posted by voxel View Post
I think you seriously overvalue the replacement value of Umberger - he's not only competing with the draft pick but all the UFAs and other players around league that can score 15G 30A. He's like a Pisani and Trent Hunter - who play well in all situations - but that doesn't mean their value is high.

A 2nd is crapshoot, but it's still a lottery ticket and that ticket could get you Patrice Bergeon or Shea Weber. At the trade deadline, Umberger could be worth as high as a late 1st, but not in the offseason. Frankly, I can't recall any those sorts trades in the offseason... usually teams will dip into the FA pool first and maybe by training camp consider trading for Umberger-types.
From another thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by voxel View Post
A re-signed Horcoff for Toronto's 7th overall is closer to fair value, but Toronto doesn't do it because they are rebuilding (aka sucking).
Quote:
Originally Posted by voxel View Post
You clearly have no understanding of trade values.

http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=13876150&postcount=1

A first line center is worth quite a bit. Some will argue Horcoff is a 1st/2nd center and some will argue that this draft is very deep (top-end is okay, but not like 2009) so the pick is worth more... true, but Horcoff for a top-10 pick is not unreasonable.

He had minor shoulder surgery from an accident at the ALL-STAR game, is in his prime, and is a very strong ES player... not a soft PP scorer.

At #7 you'll pick a Zherdev, Michalek, maybe a Vanek (using another strong draft - 2003) and 2-3 years from now they might score 73 points but neither will be as good defensively (yet) and probably will struggle on the top line (see Vanek this year). So the chance of getting a player equal or better than Horcoff is pretty good in the long run, but you have to wait about 4-5 years (i.e top-line / solid defensively).

If Toronto is rebuilding, there is no point in acquiring a Horcoff. If they want to win in the next 2 years, sure.

Many HFBoarders have trade values completely out of whack. A roster player is worth more than magic beans.
So Horcoff is worth 7th overall, yet Umberger is worth a 2nd rounder at most? That completely contradicts your above bolded statement. Horcoff is the better player, but you're saying that I'm the one overvaluing Umberger? By your logic of comparing potential draft choices versus the roster player, what are the odds that you'll actually get a player as good as Umberger late in the first round and how long will you have to wait?

Another thing, I don't think I'm the one overvaluing Umberger when you compare him to Fernando Pisani. Pisani is nothing more than a third liner, while Umberger is a legit top 6 forward. There's a reason he spent a good amount of time on the top line of a team with one of the deepest forwards corps in the league. This year was only his third in the league and I think he'll be a 60-65 point forward in his prime. It probably won't be with the Flyers though.

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Old
06-11-2008, 02:25 AM
  #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winston Wolf View Post
So Horcoff is worth 7th overall, yet Umberger is worth a 2nd rounder at most? That completely contradicts your above bolded statement. Horcoff is the better player, but you're saying that I'm the one overvaluing Umberger? By your logic of comparing potential draft choices versus the roster player, what are the odds that you'll actually get a player as good as Umberger late in the first round and how long will you have to wait?
I'm pretty much saying ALL first liners are worth around a top-10 pick... (depends on draft year, yadda yadda)

090 First line center (Spezza, Sedin, Elias)
085 First line winger (St. Louis, Smyth, Gaborik)
075 Top-5 first round pick

(Horcoff is on the lower end of a 1st liner value)

http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=13876150&postcount=1

And I'm saying ALL second liners are worth a whole lot less - see trade value chart.

050 Second line center (Fisher)
045 Second line winger (Hartnell)
045 1st round draft pick @ off-season

But I don't think Umberger is a second-liner... at all or if he is, he is on the lower end... Hartnell and Carter are definitely second liners. Umberger doesn't have a youth upside anymore and he's not on a great contract (RFA) and he's scored 20 goals once. He has as much value as Raffi Torres who is a 2nd/3rd line tweener and a is valued at a second round pick at best.

I fully support "Carter for high-end young D-man" trades as that is fair value, but Umberger doesn't actually have much trade value around the league - there are too many players like him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winston Wolf View Post
Another thing, I don't think I'm the one overvaluing Umberger when you compare him to Fernando Pisani. Pisani is nothing more than a third liner, while Umberger is a legit top 6 forward. There's a reason he spent a good amount of time on the top line of a team with one of the deepest forwards corps in the league. This year was only his third in the league and I think he'll be a 60-65 point forward in his prime. It probably won't be with the Flyers though.

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Old
06-11-2008, 03:52 AM
  #131
untouchable21
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DEREK MORRIS for one of the following ...


A) CLAUDE GIROUX

B) 2008 1st round draft pick.

To me, Morris just seems like he would be a perfect fit on the flyers blueline.

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Old
06-11-2008, 03:59 AM
  #132
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Carter for Suter.

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Old
06-11-2008, 07:43 AM
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by untouchable21 View Post
DEREK MORRIS for one of the following ...


A) CLAUDE GIROUX

B) 2008 1st round draft pick.

To me, Morris just seems like he would be a perfect fit on the flyers blueline.
One of those is a hell of a lot more valuable than the other. I'll let you figure it out.

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Old
06-11-2008, 07:51 AM
  #134
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gagne, lupul, or carter.

bieksa?

id say ohlund as well but NTC.


Last edited by shaolinson: 06-11-2008 at 07:53 AM. Reason: addition
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Old
06-11-2008, 08:00 AM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
With exception of Schneider the only player who stands out (he is a goalie) everyone else is just ok. Plus I used word great not good. Non of these players Raymond, Hansen, White, Grabner, Ellington wowed anyone..
Maybe not from VAN.

Maybe, not but that means more $.

When was the last time VAN signed top UFA. Sign one and then we will talk about how it is to give the best deal out of 4-6 teams.

wow you are such a hater.

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Old
06-11-2008, 08:08 AM
  #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonnychiba View Post
gagne, lupul, or carter.

bieksa?

id say ohlund as well but NTC.
gagne has NTC, lupul might be possible and carter is worth a lot more than bieksa.

i'd rather have edler.

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Old
06-11-2008, 12:13 PM
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LEIFey View Post
gagne has NTC, lupul might be possible and carter is worth a lot more than bieksa.

i'd rather have edler.
Edler, Schneider, 1st, 2nd
for
Carter, Lupul

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Old
06-11-2008, 12:21 PM
  #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYVanfan View Post
Edler, Schneider, 1st, 2nd
for
Carter, Lupul
oh man, that's tough to say no to

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Old
06-11-2008, 12:25 PM
  #139
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Umberger for Cam Barker ????

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Old
06-11-2008, 12:26 PM
  #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dredeye View Post
Timonen's contract is brutal. His contract runs as long as Blake's and he'll be the same age when it's over. No Leafs fan is happy with Blake's contract but he isn't a bad hockey player. I'm sure it's understandable that he had an off year with the cancer and all. I'd like to see him go but I'm fine if he stays. Kubina had 4 less points then Timonen last year. He had 40 not 30. He's a solid defenceman who produces offensively. He was overpaid at the time he signed but today is getting very much market value. Raycroft was simply a gamble that didn't work out. McCabe had an injury prone season causing him to have an off year and same goes for Tucker. Don't forget how great Philly was 2 years ago. Teams have bad years and work to fix the problems. You guys were able to do it quickly and we most likely won't be able to but it's not like you guys won the cup. You did just get into the playoffs.
Kubina averaged 30-33 points since he became a Leaf.

Timonen contract is brutal? You know something.. I am fine with it because the guy can do it all and does not miss a lot of time because of injuries. Timonen and Kabs are in the same tier.. Not close to elite players such Lidstrom, Pronger, Chara etc etc but Gonachar Markov Kabs are very similar.

3 years from now Kabs will ask for 7M a year if not more and then we will talk.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYVanfan View Post
Edler, Schneider, 1st, 2nd
for
Carter, Lupul
Are we rebuilding? Because this trade will not help us in playoffs or in regular season. Sure does help Van team.

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Old
06-11-2008, 12:32 PM
  #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LEIFey View Post
oh man, that's tough to say no to
tough to give up ..
but does address the needs of both

although I tend to agree with others that with the loss of Bourdon Edler is much less likely to be moved. And the Canucks end up with adding likely $7-8M incremental, with Lupul due for a raise next summer ...but I'd do it. If they could also add a guy like Ryder (or even Hossa), their top 6 would be set.. but would need to also stock up the D through UFA ..would be tight.

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Old
06-11-2008, 12:35 PM
  #142
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Canucks trying to move 1st round pick????

http://www.thefourthperiod.com/news/van080611.html

Lupul plus Flyers 1st and Nodl/Ruzicka for Van 1st Plus a d-man? Probably Krajicek

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Old
06-11-2008, 01:20 PM
  #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
http://www.thefourthperiod.com/news/van080611.html

Lupul plus Flyers 1st and Nodl/Ruzicka for Van 1st Plus a d-man? Probably Krajicek
I'd push for Bieksa.

Lupul, Flyers 1st, Nodl, Marshall
for
Van 1st, Bieksa

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Old
06-11-2008, 02:54 PM
  #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bennysflyers16 View Post
Umberger for Cam Barker ????
No way IMO from a Hawks POV, but then I see Umberger as a very good 3rd liner who is going to be UFA in a year. Having a great play-off series against a rookie goalie w/ a broken hand doesn't put greatly increase his level IMO.

If Barker was in play, I think the Hawks would want a scoring line player (Lupul). If Umberger's coming the other way, you'd probably be looking at Wisniewski. Just my $.02

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Old
06-11-2008, 02:57 PM
  #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
http://www.thefourthperiod.com/news/van080611.html

Lupul plus Flyers 1st and Nodl/Ruzicka for Van 1st Plus a d-man? Probably Krajicek
Is it just me or do the Flyers get boned here? Moving up 10-12 spots in the draft + Krajicek costs Lupul? I'd hope that the Hawks would be willing do to better than that. Maybe 10th overall + Wizniewski for Lupul + PHI 1st? I think that Wiz is a lot better fit that Krajicek.

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Old
06-11-2008, 03:03 PM
  #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
Edler, Schneider, 1st, 2nd
for
Carter, Lupul

Because this trade will not help us in playoffs or in regular season. Sure does help Van team.
It depends. I think that PHI is in a situation where they'd be upgrading significantly on the blueline, and opening up space for the young guys (Giroux, and ultimately JVR). They could resign Umberger, and if Gagne is back you're still in great shape offensively, along w/ restocking the farm. It would obviously be a HUGE deal, but it could make sense depending on other deals.

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Old
06-11-2008, 03:18 PM
  #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
http://www.thefourthperiod.com/news/van080611.html

Lupul plus Flyers 1st and Nodl/Ruzicka for Van 1st Plus a d-man? Probably Krajicek
Way to overpay

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Old
06-11-2008, 05:03 PM
  #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beukeboom Fan View Post
It depends. I think that PHI is in a situation where they'd be upgrading significantly on the blueline, and opening up space for the young guys (Giroux, and ultimately JVR). They could resign Umberger, and if Gagne is back you're still in great shape offensively, along w/ restocking the farm. It would obviously be a HUGE deal, but it could make sense depending on other deals.
Well lets see if Lupul was healthy he would score at least 25 goals and Carter scored 29. So we get Edler back and he will help on blue line, Giroux will step in and may or may not deliver, Gagne may or may not be healthy, Schneider with no NHL games under his belt may or may not replace Nitty. Flyers creating a huge hole playing with out big Jeff Carter and both Richards and Briere are about 5'10 to 5'11. I am not even going to get into Atlantic division. 4 teams went to playoffs, enough said.

sure with 10th over Flyers may select a very good player who will be important down the road.

Now lets look at Van: Lupul will look nice with Sedins, Carter legit 2nd line center and improving, Kesel nice player on 3rd line, avoid injuries on blue line and add Luongo to the mix and this looks like a solid playoff team.

So we give Van solid young players, 23-24 years old RFAs 50 goals, not some 30 year old injury prone about to become UFAs, roster players. What do we get in return? Edler? What is he? Second coming Bobby Orr? ***?

Screw that..

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Old
06-11-2008, 05:06 PM
  #149
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How about Preds' Koistinen? He is a lesser Kimmo Timonen who seems to learn something new every season still...

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Old
06-11-2008, 05:26 PM
  #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
Well lets see if Lupul was healthy he would score at least 25 goals and Carter scored 29. So we get Edler back and he will help on blue line, Giroux will step in and may or may not deliver, Gagne may or may not be healthy, Schneider with no NHL games under his belt may or may not replace Nitty. Flyers creating a huge hole playing with out big Jeff Carter and both Richards and Briere are about 5'10 to 5'11. I am not even going to get into Atlantic division. 4 teams went to playoffs, enough said.

sure with 10th over Flyers may select a very good player who will be important down the road.

Now lets look at Van: Lupul will look nice with Sedins, Carter legit 2nd line center and improving, Kesel nice player on 3rd line, avoid injuries on blue line and add Luongo to the mix and this looks like a solid playoff team.

So we give Van solid young players, 23-24 years old RFAs 50 goals, not some 30 year old injury prone about to become UFAs, roster players. What do we get in return? Edler? What is he? Second coming Bobby Orr? ***?

Screw that..
That's some seriously bad analysis. Yes, Lupul & Carter are good young players, but Edler, Schneider, and whoever goes in that 10th spot are all top-tier, blue-chip players.

Don't make out like the return is peanuts. It's silly, disingenuous and undercuts your other posts.

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