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Martin Looks To Improve Defense, Happy With Forwards and Goalies Now In Organization

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06-10-2008, 03:30 PM
  #51
39ontheline
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Originally Posted by RCGP View Post
You must not appreciate hockey then. A winning team is always more entertaining than a losing team. Watching a team absolutely dominant on the defensive end is just as good as seeing offensive magic. The Panther's problem isn't style but results.
Um.... doesnt their style lead to these freaking results???

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06-10-2008, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by RCGP View Post
You must not appreciate hockey then. A winning team is always more entertaining than a losing team. Watching a team absolutely dominant on the defensive end is just as good as seeing offensive magic. The Panther's problem isn't style but results.
I have to disagree with you here. Dominating the game by puck possession, great passing and overall speed in your game is so much more injoyable than plugging your own end. Having both is ofcourse best but very few can master that. Style matters, especially when you lose anyway.

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06-10-2008, 09:25 PM
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i'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that we moved the puck best when we had belfour who could actually go behind the net and play the puck. he helped move the defense faster which is a problem most nights is we get beat in the corners.

not that this will change anything in the near future but just wanted to see what everyone else thought?
I agree, which is why we need a top end puck moving d-man, because we don't have a good puckhandling goalie anymore. Really, a second or two is the difference between a good breakout and a bad one.

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06-10-2008, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by zeroG View Post
on the topic of defensive help, i came across this today:



on http://slapshot.blogs.nytimes.com (which, btw, is a great hockey blog - for an american outlet at least - if you haven't yet checked it out).
I really hope all this talk of us being the front-runners to sign Redden is true. That would be absolutely huge for us. He just needs a change of scenery IMO and he'll be right back in his 05-06 form. His breakout pass is of elite caliber, it was the engine behind the Senators' offensive machine for years. It would definitely improve our offense considerably.

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06-10-2008, 09:42 PM
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I'm wary of Redden considering he's proven that Chara was the real mainstay in that duo a few years ago. If anything I'd be hoping for Campbell, he really did turn that Sharks transition game into something lethal.
Redden hasn't been the same since his mother died halfway through the 06-07 season. He just needs a change of scenery, to get out of a Canadian city, and he'll bounce back big time IMO. He even told GR that Ottawa is "a fish bowl atmosphere"(in his blog), which we all knew already, but when you're struggling it's particularly not a good thing. He just needs to get out of there and start fresh. For a 4-5 year stretch there, he was consistently in top 10 for Norris voting. I watched him quite a bit this year and I could still see the same old Redden, but the mental focus just wasn't there, he just needs a new address. If he signs for 4-5 mil/year like people are speculating, and he regains his old form, it'll be an absolute steal for whoever signs him.

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06-10-2008, 11:29 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by RCGP View Post
You must not appreciate hockey then. A winning team is always more entertaining than a losing team. Watching a team absolutely dominant on the defensive end is just as good as seeing offensive magic. The Panther's problem isn't style but results.
Actually I've played both ice and roller for about 8 years now, as a defenseman. Defensive trap hockey with a sub-par dump and chase offense like the Panthers have is, and always will be, boring as **** to watch.

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06-10-2008, 11:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Gaebriel View Post
Actually I've played both ice and roller for about 8 years now, as a defenseman. Defensive trap hockey with a sub-par dump and chase offense like the Panthers have is, and always will be, boring as **** to watch.
+1.

I've played even longer, played all sorts of systems at different levels, and playing the trap has to be one of the worst to play as a player. It's boring as a player out there, DEFINITELY boring for the fans, and when you're not getting bounces going your way, it's way easier to lose your confidence and get shutout if you play defensive/trap style hockey, because you don't see that many offensive chances or get the puck on your stick for very long. Players like Weiss are suited to a trapping game do to their good anticipation and defensive responsability, but players like Horton and Jokinen, and in the future, Frolik are not the type of guys you want in a trap system. The way the team is being set up though, it looks as if that's the identity, Martin is trying to create, with two way players like Olesz, Weiss, McLean, etc...and a bunch of other good defensive players.

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06-11-2008, 12:09 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Gaebriel View Post
Actually I've played both ice and roller for about 8 years now, as a defenseman. Defensive trap hockey with a sub-par dump and chase offense like the Panthers have is, and always will be, boring as **** to watch.
i agree completely with rgcp. the panthers really do not play a trap, first of all. second, dump and chase is not defense. third, and beyond your point (and perhaps, understanding), EVERY team must dump the puck in at times.

and, to underscore the point rgcp made, i was there for every playoff game in 96 and it was NOT boring. think NJ fans would give up their cups? think they enjoyed their runs? good defense doesn't necessarily mean trapping. in fact, you need look no further than this year's cup to see a masterful and enjoyable defensive performance; yes, the difference was the wings' defense. furthermore, defense is fun to play when you are playing as a team and playing well.

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06-11-2008, 12:15 AM
  #59
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Winning, no matter what the style, is always more fun to watch than losing in an entertaining fashion.

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06-11-2008, 12:16 AM
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Originally Posted by zeroG View Post
i agree completely with rgcp. the panthers really do not play a trap, first of all. second, dump and chase is not defense. third, and beyond your point (and perhaps, understanding), EVERY team must dump the puck in at times.

and, to underscore the point rgcp made, i was there for every playoff game in 96 and it was NOT boring. think NJ fans would give up their cups? think they enjoyed their runs? good defense doesn't necessarily mean trapping. in fact, you need look no further than this year's cup to see a masterful and enjoyable defensive performance; yes, the difference was the wings' defense. furthermore, defense is fun to play when you are playing as a team and playing well.
When you have players who are effective in a trap, such as that 96 team, as they weren't the most skilled, then of course it was exciting, because that's a main way on how you get the most out of a hard working, yet underskilled group of players. If there's not a large gap in skill level of your players, then you can be very consistent and effective at the trap, but when you play the trap with players on the current panther roster, more offensive players such as Jokinen and Horton will suffer, as it holds them back. I'm not saying the current panthers play the trap, but I am saying that teams with less skill play the trap a lot of times and their most skilled players usually suffer i.e. Marian Gaborik's point totals in Minnesota.

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06-11-2008, 09:31 AM
  #61
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I agree with some here that we don't play the trap. We play a defensive system, but it certainly isn't the trap.

I do despise our CONSTANT dump and chase. Zero, I know at times every team has to dump and chase, but when a team is doing it 90% of the time (and we were), it's just depressing. Most of all, why the hell dump and chase on the powerplay? We did that time after time last year and time after time the opposing team just beat us to the puck and iced it.

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06-11-2008, 11:16 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by 39ontheline View Post
Um.... doesnt their style lead to these freaking results???
No, other teams have been successful using it.

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06-11-2008, 11:23 AM
  #63
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I have to disagree with you here. Dominating the game by puck possession, great passing and overall speed in your game is so much more injoyable than plugging your own end. Having both is ofcourse best but very few can master that. Style matters, especially when you lose anyway.
Losing is losing. Usually those 7-6 games are a result of sloppy hockey. If you want to see a bunch of goals caused by missed assignments and stupid decisions, you should watch junior hockey.

Any team that loses is going to look bad and not be as entertaining.

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06-11-2008, 11:38 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Gaebriel View Post
Actually I've played both ice and roller for about 8 years now, as a defenseman. Defensive trap hockey with a sub-par dump and chase offense like the Panthers have is, and always will be, boring as **** to watch.
Playing the game doesn't automatically mean you appreciate it. I played soccer for 18 years and I honestly can't appreciate the games on tv. Watching soccer is boring to me as a result, but the whole rest of the world can't be wrong.

The Panther's are bad to watch simply because they lose.

Flames fans certainly weren't complaining about their style when they were winning and going to the cup final, and they played a much more conservative game than the Panthers did this year. They only made it an issue when the team would go into a slump in the following season.

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06-11-2008, 12:17 PM
  #65
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Disagree that winning=entertaining. I had season tickets for the undefeated 1972 Miami Dolphins team and believe me, they were boring. 90% of the offensive plays were Csonka runs up the middle for 5 yards with the remainder a scamper around end by Morris and one bomb to Warfield. Of course I exaggerate but not by much. The Cats have been losers for so long that winning is seen as the end all for entertainment but once you get a taste of winning you will soon find that that isn't enough, you want more than that, to win in an entertaining fashion.

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06-11-2008, 12:25 PM
  #66
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When you have players who are effective in a trap, such as that 96 team, as they weren't the most skilled, then of course it was exciting, because that's a main way on how you get the most out of a hard working, yet underskilled group of players. If there's not a large gap in skill level of your players, then you can be very consistent and effective at the trap, but when you play the trap with players on the current panther roster, more offensive players such as Jokinen and Horton will suffer, as it holds them back. I'm not saying the current panthers play the trap, but I am saying that teams with less skill play the trap a lot of times and their most skilled players usually suffer i.e. Marian Gaborik's point totals in Minnesota.
you bring up a good point. despite the presence of gaborik, olli or horton, both teams still lack the speed and skill to play an aggressive, uptempo offensive style. it's unfortunate for those guys but you will always see that. you really find out who the character guys are in those situations - some guys will whine or avoid the dirty work (olli), hurting the team and some guys will roll up their sleeves, go out there and do whatever it takes to get the W. the latter are the guys you want, obviously.

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I agree with some here that we don't play the trap. We play a defensive system, but it certainly isn't the trap.

I do despise our CONSTANT dump and chase. Zero, I know at times every team has to dump and chase, but when a team is doing it 90% of the time (and we were), it's just depressing. Most of all, why the hell dump and chase on the powerplay? We did that time after time last year and time after time the opposing team just beat us to the puck and iced it.
yeah, it is depressing but, apropos our subject, one of the things that will help that particular problem (in terms of upgrading talent; obviously, coaching plays a role as do our Fs) is addressing the back end: better, quicker first passes = better speed through the neutral zone and easier, more consistent offensive zone entry. if you roll back the tape on all of those PP dump ins, the problems start in our end and are magnified in the neutral zone. even still, there are times you have to dump it in on the PP - the best teams do it. you just need to have a good dump in, have the guys without the puck moving with speed toward the blue line and have guys willing to get their nose dirty and you should have pretty good odds of getting the puck back. that wasn't the case for us.

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06-11-2008, 03:36 PM
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Martin's continuing lack of recognition of a deficiency at 1st line wing is very depressing. I don't see this team making the playoffs with or without a puck moving defenseman if we don't acquire a true 1st line winger.

I haven't posted in a while, but from what I have been reading it seems like a good portion of the board thinks Matthias is going to be the be all answer to the 1st line. I think this is a huge mistake. Yes, he had a good few games stint here, but as a rookie I don't see him making a huge impact. It seems like people expect him to put up Toews type numbers or even Mueller's numbers (50pts), which I think are really high expectations that are going to leave a lot of people disappointed as most rookies do not put up those kind of numbers... Not to mention that it puts a huge amount of pressure on Matthias that could stunt his development.

Don't get me wrong I think he is a terrific prospect, but juniors to 1st line NHL is a huge jump that takes most players years to adjust to. Not every rookie is like Malkin, Ovechkin, or Crosby who can be productive in their first year (Not to mention these guys were 1st or 2nd overall in their draft years). We need someone to make a difference now, and if I am wrong and Matthias develops into a star we'll actually have top 6 depth which is never a bad thing.


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06-11-2008, 03:42 PM
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I think the idea is that Matthias would be a solid addition to the 1st line where Olli could move to the wing where his play is better suited. Throw Zednick or somebody on the other wing where his speed can further take the attention off of Matthias and it's not necessarily such a high-pressure environment.

Just the impression I've gotten.

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06-11-2008, 04:01 PM
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I think the idea is that Matthias would be a solid addition to the 1st line where Olli could move to the wing where his play is better suited. Throw Zednick or somebody on the other wing where his speed can further take the attention off of Matthias and it's not necessarily such a high-pressure environment.

Just the impression I've gotten.
I understand, but I question why he's a solid addition other than the fact that he had a good year at juniors, and had two points in 4 games.

Olli more than likely is going to have an equal or worse year based on his play at the end of the season/World's. Plus, he's never been successful at wing. Zednick hasn't scored 50 points since 2003-2004. Matthias will have more ice time than he's used to, be playing against the top defenders in the NHL, and adjusting to other differences between juniors and the NHL. To me, a 1st line of Olli-Matthias-Zednik gives me zero confidence that we will have the offense needed to make the playoffs, and in case it's mentioned Mclean has no business on a 1st line. He's a good 3rd liner.

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06-11-2008, 05:06 PM
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Typical Martin with his defense first philosophy. Unfortunately, we will waste money on a d-man who will have nowhere near the impact a top forward.

This team has a problem scoring goals yet our GM HOPES our rookie prospect(s) push us over the top and other players live up to their potential. Signing a new d-man other than a top 15 in this league will not make a significant difference. Spin it any way you want, talk about transition game, talk about the power play, but the biggest difference will come when we get a top line forward and/or a new coach who is nothing like JM.

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06-11-2008, 05:08 PM
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Basically we don't have enough offensive talent. Our forwards may or may not live up to their potential and we are counting on prospects to make the difference. Sounds like a recipe for missing the playoffs.

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06-11-2008, 05:38 PM
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Typical Martin with his defense first philosophy. Unfortunately, we will waste money on a d-man who will have nowhere near the impact a top forward.

This team has a problem scoring goals yet our GM HOPES our rookie prospect(s) push us over the top and other players live up to their potential. Signing a new d-man other than a top 15 in this league will not make a significant difference. Spin it any way you want, talk about transition game, talk about the power play, but the biggest difference will come when we get a top line forward and/or a new coach who is nothing like JM.
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Basically we don't have enough offensive talent. Our forwards may or may not live up to their potential and we are counting on prospects to make the difference. Sounds like a recipe for missing the playoffs.
Most people disagree with you and see how a puck mover like Liles or Campbell would help the team. Getting out of the defensive zone was a huge issue with the offense, a puck mover will help.

We'd all like to have a Hossa like forward, it's not going to happen, there's a reason he left Atlanta and is willing to take less to stay in Pittsburgh. And how do you know the kids won't help the team?

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06-11-2008, 05:56 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by OneOfTheHockeyGods View Post
Typical Martin with his defense first philosophy. Unfortunately, we will waste money on a d-man who will have nowhere near the impact a top forward.

This team has a problem scoring goals yet our GM HOPES our rookie prospect(s) push us over the top and other players live up to their potential. Signing a new d-man other than a top 15 in this league will not make a significant difference. Spin it any way you want, talk about transition game, talk about the power play, but the biggest difference will come when we get a top line forward and/or a new coach who is nothing like JM.
No, you're wrong. We scored more goals then a few of the teams that made it into the playoffs but we allowed more goals that a lot of teams and we need to lower that with better defensive play.

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06-11-2008, 05:59 PM
  #74
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Most people disagree with you and see how a puck mover like Liles or Campbell would help the team. Getting out of the defensive zone was a huge issue with the offense, a puck mover will help.

We'd all like to have a Hossa like forward, it's not going to happen, there's a reason he left Atlanta and is willing to take less to stay in Pittsburgh. And how do you know the kids won't help the team?
No, its just people here try to make the best of a situation and don't want to deal with reality. Our biggest problem was coaching. A coach has A LOT to do with our breakout. Also, our coach has a lot to do with our style of play which was way too passive. JM played a sit back/collapse obsessive D-style. If we were more aggressive and played more of a puck possession instead of always dumping the puck in we would leverage our best asset which was our powerplay. Unfortunately, we were 29th in the league in powerplay opportunities with a 6th ranked powerplay. Seems like an obvious ability we should be exploiting. But no, JM wants to talk about us having a problem with breakouts and a new puck moving d (keep in mind we WILL NOT sign Campbell unless we trade Bouw which is still unlikely) will cure this problem. He is about to hire a coach who will most likely be similar to him. This new coach will probably change our breakouts but will not change our style of play. You don't need top offensive talent to have a good powerplay. A lot of that is coaching, which was done by our assistants. The only good coaching this past season. Let JM convince you that a new puck moving d-man, say Liles for instance, will make a significant difference when this is just a pipe dream. We are in big trouble when we are thinking Liles will improve this team enough to make the playoffs.

Say what you want about a puck moving d-man who will transform our breakout. I see no problem with our d-men's passing abilities it has more to do with dumping the puck in 90% of the time. Our biggest problem is style of play not puck moving d-man of which we wont even get a top puck moving d-man.

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06-11-2008, 06:07 PM
  #75
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No, you're wrong. We scored more goals then a few of the teams that made it into the playoffs but we allowed more goals that a lot of teams and we need to lower that with better defensive play.
Goals for 5 on 5 19th in the league
Goals against 5 on 5 16th in the league
Power play goals against 18th
Power play goals for 19th in the league while having the second fewest opportunities and the 6th best PP

hmmm....

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