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Jagr needs to go.

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Old
06-18-2008, 09:59 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by HockeyBasedNYC View Post
wow, so quick to say.

Might as well not even watch then if he doesnt sign.

I've been saying it since they shook hands in Pittsburgh. The Rangers should move away from Jagr if they want to help this team long term. Yeah he might help next season - but do you really think he'll take a one year deal?

.....
Great post HBNYC. I definitely agree with you on all counts.

Frankly, I'm not the least bit concerned with missing the playoffs if it means Sather has taken a few steps to move this team in the right direction, and that means no more Jagr.

I think JJ is a great player and a great personality in NY, but his style of play doesn't fit that of the rest of the team. As I've said before, resigning Jagr commits this organization to his style of play for another 2 years whether you admit it to yourself or not.

Jagr's salary would be much better suited to other roles on this team. A sniper for Gomez, a first pairing d-man, a crease-clearing d-man or even a play-maker for Drury. People are so concerned with how bad the FA pool is, but nobody is willing to move the pieces necessary to acquire the building blocks we need via trade. We're backed up at center, we've got a ton of 3rd line players and people are still talking about "building from within." Well thats fine and great until you realize we're building a skyscraper out of tin-foil. We don't have the pieces to build from within. Outside of Anisimov, Cherepanov and Sanguinetti, we have no high-level talent outside of our current roster. That's half a line and one d-man. Bourret might turn out to be a good player, but 'might' doesn't win you a cup.

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06-18-2008, 10:23 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
Great post HBNYC. I definitely agree with you on all counts.

Frankly, I'm not the least bit concerned with missing the playoffs if it means Sather has taken a few steps to move this team in the right direction, and that means no more Jagr.

I think JJ is a great player and a great personality in NY, but his style of play doesn't fit that of the rest of the team. As I've said before, resigning Jagr commits this organization to his style of play for another 2 years whether you admit it to yourself or not.

Jagr's salary would be much better suited to other roles on this team. A sniper for Gomez, a first pairing d-man, a crease-clearing d-man or even a play-maker for Drury. People are so concerned with how bad the FA pool is, but nobody is willing to move the pieces necessary to acquire the building blocks we need via trade. We're backed up at center, we've got a ton of 3rd line players and people are still talking about "building from within." Well thats fine and great until you realize we're building a skyscraper out of tin-foil. We don't have the pieces to build from within. Outside of Anisimov, Cherepanov and Sanguinetti, we have no high-level talent outside of our current roster. That's half a line and one d-man. Bourret might turn out to be a good player, but 'might' doesn't win you a cup.
Some would say to get a sniper for Gomez, you'll need to break the bank for a Hossa or trade the world for a player like that...

But I dont think so. Look at Gionta - perfect example. He came into his own and had a 90 point season with Gomez and this past year around 50. If you can get a second-tier player, a guy on the upswing of his career who can skate and puck in the net - all of sudden you have that compliment you need and you didnt break the bank or trade away all your assets. I'd rather put my faith in the Rangers scouting to get a guy like that instead of relying on an aging Jagr.

Straka could have put home 14 goals in the playoffs, who knows what another player who could finish would've done with all of those chances.

Sather has to get creative, something he hasn't done much of. Thats why I'm kinda scared because I think he'll take the easy way out by signing Jagr. Thats the "obvious" way to go for this season, but you have to look deeper into the future to really see that its not the best option.

Seeing that Sather hasn't contacted him is encouraging, but on the other hand I think Sather is playing a game with Jagr. Thats not good. Maybe Sather feels the same way and only wants Jagr to sign a one year deal and is ignoring him to lure him into that. Thats possible. But if Jagr comes back knowing that the Rangers are just using him as a bridge, he'll be miserable and his play will suffer because of it.

I'd just let him go to Russia. Start building around Drury and Gomez now. Don't wait another year.

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06-18-2008, 10:42 AM
  #28
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Please tell me how one more yr with Jagr hurts the team going forward?................it does'nt

Sign him and get a big name next yr

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06-18-2008, 10:56 AM
  #29
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Please tell me how one more yr with Jagr hurts the team going forward?................it does'nt

Sign him and get a big name next yr
I just did.

And what makes you so sure they are going to sign him for only one year?

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06-18-2008, 11:29 AM
  #30
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Jagr with others brought in (a forward and a #1 defenseman), is our ONLY chance at the cup.

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06-18-2008, 11:30 AM
  #31
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I just did.

And what makes you so sure they are going to sign him for only one year?
what makes you so sure they won't?

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06-18-2008, 11:30 AM
  #32
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06-18-2008, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Rags225 View Post
what makes you so sure they won't?
My argument encompasses both scenarios.




Some here talk about hanging onto him "one more year" like thats the only scenario.

Its not likely Jagr will take one year. Who knows... he could - and we are caught in the middle again.

Still not a good choice if you ask me.

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06-18-2008, 11:48 AM
  #34
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My argument encompasses both scenarios.




Some here talk about hanging onto him "one more year" like thats the only scenario.

Its not likely Jagr will take one year. Who knows... he could - and we are caught in the middle again.

Still not a good choice if you ask me.
I don't mind him coming back for either one or two years... he really is a good mentor and younger players can learn a ton from watching/playing w/ him. Look at what he did w/ Dubi who I think another year w/ can really make him into a good player.

But I don't want the team to Revolve around Jagr anymore. ala signing all his friends to make him happy.

I really think Sather screwed the pooch by making or not making these FA signings the last two offseasons. It seams that he is lacking direction in where he wants this team to go. First it was the Euro root (the way I prefer, lots of skill, puck possesion, open game) than the NA root (dump, chase, lose puck, play d, dump chase zzzzzzz.......). But he didn't fully commit to either, yet he didn't have the right players in the system to use a hybrid system which probably is the most effective (aka Detroit). Also i don't think Renney has the capability to understand how to utilize players, and how to make a good effective hybrid system.

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06-18-2008, 12:12 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by HockeyBasedNYC View Post
Its not likely Jagr will take one year.
Why not? He's been pretty open about wanting to keep his options open. He promised Omsk he'd come back one day, and has promised his dad he'll be home in 2 years when he opens a new arena in Kladno. One year could be exactly what he's looking for.

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06-18-2008, 12:45 PM
  #36
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Oh, please... No one in the right mind would let him walk away. He is a legend, but not only that. Jagr is the only superstar that made it in New York. His tenure here was a success. He is still the best player on the team. He is what Rangers need from both hockey and (very important!) business aspect. Ryder-Schmider... Jagr is not going anywhere.

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06-18-2008, 01:14 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
Great post HBNYC. I definitely agree with you on all counts.

Frankly, I'm not the least bit concerned with missing the playoffs if it means Sather has taken a few steps to move this team in the right direction, and that means no more Jagr.

I think JJ is a great player and a great personality in NY, but his style of play doesn't fit that of the rest of the team. As I've said before, resigning Jagr commits this organization to his style of play for another 2 years whether you admit it to yourself or not.

Jagr's salary would be much better suited to other roles on this team. A sniper for Gomez, a first pairing d-man, a crease-clearing d-man or even a play-maker for Drury. People are so concerned with how bad the FA pool is, but nobody is willing to move the pieces necessary to acquire the building blocks we need via trade. We're backed up at center, we've got a ton of 3rd line players and people are still talking about "building from within." Well thats fine and great until you realize we're building a skyscraper out of tin-foil. We don't have the pieces to build from within. Outside of Anisimov, Cherepanov and Sanguinetti, we have no high-level talent outside of our current roster. That's half a line and one d-man. Bourret might turn out to be a good player, but 'might' doesn't win you a cup.
i agree as well....its not that i think jagr isnt a good player anymore, its that looking at the team, if they couldnt get past the second round this year, with jagr being one year older who the team is going to be built around, would thye move further anyways?....to me just making the playoffs does nothing for me....making the playoffs to get crushed is nothing...all it does is make the draft pick worse....i think taking a step backwards is the best way to take a step forwards in a year or two for the younger players....they have so many good young players that their systemis overflowing, try and package some for a good player to compliment the team and give the younger players bigger roles

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06-18-2008, 01:22 PM
  #38
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let's see jagr for 5million or Hossa for 9 .... leaving us 4 million to get a better winger to play on the other side of Jagr. Plus who says Dubinsky will be Jagr's center this year. Maybe Gomez and Jags finally click.

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06-18-2008, 01:25 PM
  #39
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let's see jagr for 5million or Hossa for 9 .... leaving us 4 million to get a better winger to play on the other side of Jagr. Plus who says Dubinsky will be Jagr's center this year. Maybe Gomez and Jags finally click.
i would pass on both of those players...and jagr wouldnt sign for 5 million

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06-18-2008, 01:39 PM
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With Jagr resigned we get Dubinsky as first line center. We then have two more centers, Drury and Gomez, and would probably have one of the best "group of centers". If we dont resign Jagr, Dubi will fall into an anonymous 3rd line center, and Drury and Gomez will either get first line.

What im saying is with Jagr we not only get one superstar, we also get a Dubinsky-star and probably also Cherepanov.

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06-18-2008, 01:42 PM
  #41
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With Jagr resigned we get Dubinsky as first line center. We then have two more centers, Drury and Gomez, and would probably have one of the best "group of centers". If we dont resign Jagr, Dubi will fall into an anonymous 3rd line center, and Drury and Gomez will either get first line.

What im saying is with Jagr we not only get one superstar, we also get a Dubinsky-star and probably also Cherepanov.
cheraponov has said he will be staying in russia this year....and what does it matter if dubinsky plays third line as the third line last year played quite a bit with drury....the thing is with this team is that they have three very even lines and even with jagr, the top three lines would get about even playing time

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06-18-2008, 01:46 PM
  #42
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With Jagr resigned we get Dubinsky as first line center. We then have two more centers, Drury and Gomez, and would probably have one of the best "group of centers". If we dont resign Jagr, Dubi will fall into an anonymous 3rd line center, and Drury and Gomez will either get first line.

What im saying is with Jagr we not only get one superstar, we also get a Dubinsky-star and probably also Cherepanov.
So we should resign Jagr so he'll make Dubinsky look good? Where's the logic in that? If Dubi can't excel without Jagr on his wing, then he shouldn't be the first line center anyway. Somehow I get the impression that you're saying Drury or Gomez as our 1st line center would be a bad thing.

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06-18-2008, 02:03 PM
  #43
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Euro root (the way I prefer, lots of skill, puck possesion, open game) than the NA root (dump, chase, lose puck, play d, dump chase zzzzzzz.......).
I agree, i like a "European" style of play. IMO it is the PROPER way to play hockey. Hockey is a skill sport. A high speed game. The proper way to play is to possess the puck, keep the puck AWAY from the opposition, overwhelm them with superior skill, speed, and depth, and score goals.

I could never understand the infatuation with North American dump and chase. Why waste time setting up behind your own net looking for the perfect break out play, work to get the puck through the neutral zone, just to GIVE IT BACK to the opposition, and again go chasing after it. POINTLESS. Waste of time. Waste of energy. Only players with little puck skills, and little passing ability dump and chase. That is left to the 4th line.

A team should absolutely be built upon speed, skill, and smarts.

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But he didn't fully commit to either, yet he didn't have the right players in the system to use a hybrid system which probably is the most effective (aka Detroit). Also i don't think Renney has the capability to understand how to utilize players, and how to make a good effective hybrid system.
I agree Sather hasn't supplied the right players to play a hybrid yet. However, i disagree on what you say about Renney. Renney absolutely has the smarts and wherewithal to create systems that are successful. His only downfall as a coach that i have seen is he is terrible at line combinations, and keeping lines together when they work.

Perhaps that is what you meant? But i disagree that he can't put forth a system that players can buy into and win with. He has, and it showed this year. Our team was mediocre, but because of the system in place, and team defense, they managed to get to the second round.


I think where Sather screwed up was thinking that he had a team that could go far in the playoffs, and simply was not the case. He didn't want to look foolish after all the hype and he blew a huge opportunity to sell all the soon to be free agents for draft picks in this deep draft and young players, giving the Rangers a head start into next year and beyond. However, he only added to the mess, and we are about to lose half the roster to free agency with no compensation, a ton of holes to fill, and not nearly enough draft picks nor good draft placement.

Sather has his hands full this off season. He better not start digging holes we can't climb out of, like, wasting money to cater to a 36 year old and overpaying for Avery and being handcuffed with yet another horrible, unmovable contract. Or trading our top prospects and top young players.

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06-18-2008, 02:24 PM
  #44
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I agree Sather hasn't supplied the right players to play a hybrid yet. However, i disagree on what you say about Renney. Renney absolutely has the smarts and wherewithal to create systems that are successful. His only downfall as a coach that i have seen is he is terrible at line combinations, and keeping lines together when they work.

Perhaps that is what you meant? But i disagree that he can't put forth a system that players can buy into and win with. He has, and it showed this year. Our team was mediocre, but because of the system in place, and team defense, they managed to get to the second round.
That's exactly what I meant. His bad line combo's, and not utilizing players strengths and weaknesses. His use of Cullen, and Prucha were horrible. Mixing and matching lines every game/period doesn't help chemistry either. He has solid game plans, but his in game decisions and the way he utilizes personnel isn't good. Jagr's line should not have to play a defensive type game. They should be allowed to take more chances.

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I think where Sather screwed up was thinking that he had a team that could go far in the playoffs, and simply was not the case. He didn't want to look foolish after all the hype and he blew a huge opportunity to sell all the soon to be free agents for draft picks in this deep draft and young players, giving the Rangers a head start into next year and beyond. However, he only added to the mess, and we are about to lose half the roster to free agency with no compensation, a ton of holes to fill, and not nearly enough draft picks nor good draft placement.
100% agree. I really wanted to see a big fire sale and was disappointed that we didn't do it. But than we played better and it gave me hope. But at least he didn't trade assets for quick fixes that didn't work. it could have been worse

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Originally Posted by PukkuMikku View Post
Sather has his hands full this off season. He better not start digging holes we can't climb out of, like, wasting money to cater to a 36 year old and overpaying for Avery and being handcuffed with yet another horrible, unmovable contract. Or trading our top prospects and top young players.
this is exactly what I am afraid of.

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06-18-2008, 02:37 PM
  #45
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I've said it before and I'll say it again. We weren't that far off from winning a Cup this past year. We were missing a few key components, none of which had anything to do with Jagr. You can keep the same exact team we had, upgrade in a few positions, and we are a legit Cup contender. If we get a legit #1 pair defense man to play with Staal, someone to move the puck around on the PP, score, and play excellent defense we are one step better. If we can sign a rough, hard hitting defense man like Orpik, we are one step better. If we can sign a legit 25 - 35 goal scorer to replace Shanahan, we are one step better. The Penguins weren't that much better than us. They didn't play better than us five on five at all. They were a better specialty team. I say keep the same team, upgrade a few spots, and work on specialty teams and we can win a Cup with Jagr. I'm actually pretty confident about this team.

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06-18-2008, 02:43 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Fataldogg View Post
I've said it before and I'll say it again. We weren't that far off from winning a Cup this past year. We were missing a few key components, none of which had anything to do with Jagr. You can keep the same exact team we had, upgrade in a few positions, and we are a legit Cup contender. If we get a legit #1 pair defense man to play with Staal, someone to move the puck around on the PP, score, and play excellent defense we are one step better. If we can sign a rough, hard hitting defense man like Orpik, we are one step better. If we can sign a legit 25 - 35 goal scorer to replace Shanahan, we are one step better. The Penguins weren't that much better than us. They didn't play better than us five on five at all. They were a better specialty team. I say keep the same team, upgrade a few spots, and work on specialty teams and we can win a Cup with Jagr. I'm actually pretty confident about this team.
The problem I see is this: how much more are the Rangers really going to get out of Jagr next year? Or how much less might be a better question. You're still looking at a 36 year old guy to carry the bulk of the offense. And while you are hoping that Jagr can match his production from last seasons other team's top players are going to get better as they are only entering their primes while Jagr is moving further away from his.

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06-18-2008, 02:43 PM
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So we should resign Jagr so he'll make Dubinsky look good? Where's the logic in that? If Dubi can't excel without Jagr on his wing, then he shouldn't be the first line center anyway. Somehow I get the impression that you're saying Drury or Gomez as our 1st line center would be a bad thing.
Jagr makes Duby good, so with Jagr on Dubys line, we have three strong centers. If we dont resign Jagr Duby will not as much impact on the team as he had this season. Its definitly not a bad thing with Gomer or Drury on the first live, but i would rather have Duby on the first, and Gomer and Drury on second/third.

If we lose Jagr we will also "lose" Dubinsky

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06-18-2008, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by daigle View Post
Jagr makes Duby good, so with Jagr on Dubys line, we have three strong centers. If we dont resign Jagr Duby will not as much impact on the team as he had this season. Its definitly not a bad thing with Gomer or Drury on the first live, but i would rather have Duby on the first, and Gomer and Drury on second/third.

If we lose Jagr we will also "lose" Dubinsky
Frankly if Dubi can only excel on a line where he has a guy like Jagr, I don't want him anywhere near this team.

Respectfully, I think keeping Jagr so Dubi can play better is a ridiculous notion to be honest.

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06-18-2008, 02:49 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daigle View Post
If we lose Jagr we will also "lose" Dubinsky
I think that's selling Dubi short. He's a solid centerman, good a FOs, and a power forward. Those are a skills that have nothing to do with Jagr. What Jagr (or another skilled winger) brings to Dubi's game is a finisher, and a focal point for the opponent's defense. Dubi earned his original spot on the top line due to his hard work, and was asked back there by Jagr, because Jagr could tutor him on being Jagr's center. But Jagr didn't give him those tools, he merely helped hone them, and there's no reason they should disappear overnight.

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06-18-2008, 02:53 PM
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That's exactly what I meant. His bad line combo's, and not utilizing players strengths and weaknesses. His use of Cullen, and Prucha were horrible. Mixing and matching lines every game/period doesn't help chemistry either. He has solid game plans, but his in game decisions and the way he utilizes personnel isn't good. Jagr's line should not have to play a defensive type game. They should be allowed to take more chances.



100% agree. I really wanted to see a big fire sale and was disappointed that we didn't do it. But than we played better and it gave me hope. But at least he didn't trade assets for quick fixes that didn't work. it could have been worse



this is exactly what I am afraid of.
I agree.

After the team started playing better i had hope, since what could we do after the deadline passed? Just support the players we had.

But i was really hoping for a fire sale of sorts. I think we could have gotten back the kind of players to turn the team around completely next year, much like what Philly did the year before.

You saw what San Jose gave up for Campbell? Campbell got a 1st rounder and Bernier. We could have pulled off those kinds of trades.

Rozsival, Mara, Malik, Straka, Shanahan, Avery, Valiquette, and if you wanted an extreme... Jagr.

Image the return we could have gotten?

Wasted opportunity, IMO.

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