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Old
06-18-2008, 03:53 PM
  #26
Laus723
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Originally Posted by Homesick View Post
added to my favorites

thanks

I dont think his value has dropped substantially. I'm sure Zed's injury probably caused Olli to slow down a little bit; but he'll get over it.
22nd overall
Shawn Horcoff(hardly underachieving, or overpaid)
Robbie Schremp(This kid has talent, but just can't/wont get a break in Edmonton with all the kids in our line up. He's my favorite prospect and I wish we could get him in somehow. If not, I want him as far away as possible..4,920 km's)
I'd actually reccomend that you bookmark this guy: http://www.miamiherald.com/sports/hockey/ Richards is far and away the most accurate Panther writer. Gorten isn't bad, he just tends to be behind the 8 ball more often.

So far as your offer, I'd take it. I'd love to have Horcoff here, does he play the wing position at all?

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06-18-2008, 03:54 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
I'd actually reccomend that you bookmark this guy: http://www.miamiherald.com/sports/hockey/ Richards is far and away the most accurate Panther writer. Gorten isn't bad, he just tends to be behind the 8 ball more often.

So far as your offer, I'd take it. I'd love to have Horcoff here, does he play the wing position at all?
Yeh, Laus is right on this one, Richards is far more accurate and seems to have more of a relationship with the Panthers more than any other beatwriters that cover the team.

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06-18-2008, 03:59 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post

So far as your offer, I'd take it. I'd love to have Horcoff here, does he play the wing position at all?
Damn! I must be over paying. It's not supposed work like that here

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06-18-2008, 04:11 PM
  #29
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A new GM? Are you kidding? All of these people blaming JM for Olli's failures last season need to get a grip. If you ask me, JM was more than fair and personally, I think Olli should have watched a few games from the pressbox judging by how he played and how little he seemed to care.
I do not blame Martin directly for Joke's poor play last season. Joke just isn't all that good of a player. His skillset is quite limited. He needs to go. At any price. Because it will only go down.

The way Martin handled Joke: I think one has to differenciate between what Martin did during the important games of the season and what he did after we were practically eliminated. If he wanted to motivate Joke and get him out of his funk (in time) Martin should have done something (possibly be harder on) about Joke during the stretch. Now, what Martin chose to do was to keep quiet and be easy on Joke until all was but lost. At which point he unleashed an all-out against Joke. Why would he do that then? What was there to be achieved at that point? Playoffs were a dream at that point.

To me the answer is simple - Martin needed a scapecoat to save his own butt. So he put all the responsibility on Joke - who made it all very easy to Martin by blaming himself aswell.

Martin was in total control of the team. He was both GM and coach. With power comes responsibility. This time it didn't.

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06-18-2008, 04:47 PM
  #30
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According to GR . TSN never ask olli or his agent about any of this . And that bridges arent neccessarily burned btw olli and the panthers . Its bascially up to JM and the panthers on what they want to do .
http://miamiherald.typepad.com/flapa...e-jokinen.html

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06-18-2008, 04:56 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by PanthersFanatic12 View Post
According to GR . TSN never ask olli or his agent about any of this . And that bridges arent neccessarily burned btw olli and the panthers . Its bascially up to JM and the panthers on what they want to do .
http://miamiherald.typepad.com/flapa...e-jokinen.html
Dreger never said he talked to Olli or his agent. Doesn't mean someone who did told Dreger. DD has alot of sources.

"Gandler wouldn't confirm or deny the report"

Makes me wonder^

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06-18-2008, 05:06 PM
  #32
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Well... I'll go on record and say this again.

The Panthers have not made the playoffs since acquiring Luongo and Jokinen.

The Panthers have not made the playoffs since getting rid of Luongo.

Is Jokinen the last piece? Will getting rid of him release us of the playoff drought?

Was it a cursed trade?



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06-18-2008, 05:08 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Akgoalie7-sisu View Post
Well... I'll go on record and say this again.

The Panthers have not made the playoffs since acquiring Luongo and Jokinen.

The Panthers have not made the playoffs since getting rid of Luongo.

Is Jokinen the last piece? Will getting rid of him release us of the playoff drought?

Was it a cursed trade?


havent seen you around in forever lol

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06-18-2008, 05:27 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Tuco View Post
I do not blame Martin directly for Joke's poor play last season. Joke just isn't all that good of a player. His skillset is quite limited. He needs to go. At any price. Because it will only go down.

The way Martin handled Joke: I think one has to differenciate between what Martin did during the important games of the season and what he did after we were practically eliminated. If he wanted to motivate Joke and get him out of his funk (in time) Martin should have done something (possibly be harder on) about Joke during the stretch. Now, what Martin chose to do was to keep quiet and be easy on Joke until all was but lost. At which point he unleashed an all-out against Joke. Why would he do that then? What was there to be achieved at that point? Playoffs were a dream at that point.

To me the answer is simple - Martin needed a scapecoat to save his own butt. So he put all the responsibility on Joke - who made it all very easy to Martin by blaming himself aswell.

Martin was in total control of the team. He was both GM and coach. With power comes responsibility. This time it didn't.
Jokinen isn't that good of a player? Now I've heard it all. He's been a point-per-game player without the likes of a top-line winger such as the guys in Ottawa and even TBL have. He's also been able to make McLean and Stumpel better and get more production from them. Not that good a player??? Not a good leader, sure, but not that of a player? Sorry, not at all true.

Cohen's not smart enough to see past Martin's little scheme of making Olli look bad? Sorry, that's weak. From George's blog, and as I predicted:

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/h...,2851893.story

Quote:
When captain Olli Jokinen struggled after his skate accidentally sliced teammate Richard Zednik's neck Feb. 10, Martin publicly called out Jokinen in an attempt to motivate him. It didn't work. By that point of the season, their relationship had deteriorated because of poor communication
Again, not saying he was right, he just didn't know how. I don't think it had much at all to do with saving his rear-end, especially since he had to think about if he wanted to stay on as the GM. I think he was trying to wake him up.

Commentary had come out earlier about their arguing, perhaps that's what it was about, perhaps not, but we don't know. Olli never woke up, could be that Martin kept on him to see if he would and see if he really wanted to keep him around going into next season?

Dunno, but I don't buy the "he was trying to save his own arse" comments.

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06-18-2008, 05:28 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Tuco View Post
I do not blame Martin directly for Joke's poor play last season. Joke just isn't all that good of a player. His skillset is quite limited. He needs to go. At any price. Because it will only go down.

The way Martin handled Joke: I think one has to differenciate between what Martin did during the important games of the season and what he did after we were practically eliminated. If he wanted to motivate Joke and get him out of his funk (in time) Martin should have done something (possibly be harder on) about Joke during the stretch. Now, what Martin chose to do was to keep quiet and be easy on Joke until all was but lost. At which point he unleashed an all-out against Joke. Why would he do that then? What was there to be achieved at that point? Playoffs were a dream at that point.

To me the answer is simple - Martin needed a scapecoat to save his own butt. So he put all the responsibility on Joke - who made it all very easy to Martin by blaming himself aswell.

Martin was in total control of the team. He was both GM and coach. With power comes responsibility. This time it didn't.
Thank you! At least someone agrees with me. The timing of his comments against Olli were questionable at best. That was a problem with Martin calling him out AFTER the season was already over and after we were out of contention. Martin totally used Jokinen to save his own job IMO.

I'm skeptical as to whether Olli can get back on track and produce a lot. I've always wondered how he put up such big numbers. He has that shot and has some skill to score some nice goals, but he never jumped out at me as a big point producing player, although he kept proving me wrong. Hopefully if we hang on to him, he'll produce for us. If we don't, we'll probably never get a higher return than now.

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06-18-2008, 05:42 PM
  #36
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I don't know how sensitive you guys think Olli is, but Martin didn't say anything about him that everybody here wasn't anyway...

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06-18-2008, 05:45 PM
  #37
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I don't know how sensitive you guys think Olli is, but Martin didn't say anything about him that everybody here wasn't anyway...
Exactly. And again, Cohen can't see through that "smoke screen?"

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06-18-2008, 08:28 PM
  #38
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I haven't read through the thread, but I'd like to chime in:

We should trade Olli. He's the kind of player that would help win a Stanley Cup NOW. We are still 're-building' whether we want to admit that or not. Trade him at the draft along with our pick for a stud player in the 20-25 age range.

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06-18-2008, 08:41 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clint View Post
I haven't read through the thread, but I'd like to chime in:

We should trade Olli. He's the kind of player that would help win a Stanley Cup NOW. We are still 're-building' whether we want to admit that or not. Trade him at the draft along with our pick for a stud player in the 20-25 age range.
I wouldn't say we're rebuilding so much as waiting for the cement to dry...

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06-18-2008, 09:54 PM
  #40
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I haven't read through the thread, but I'd like to chime in:

We should trade Olli. He's the kind of player that would help win a Stanley Cup NOW. We are still 're-building' whether we want to admit that or not. Trade him at the draft along with our pick for a stud player in the 20-25 age range.
I love Olli and a big fan ...but I am also a realistic fan (as in no playoffs games /he's not getting younger/ Zednik incident/ this summer with Finland).

Jeff Carter's potential makes me 20-25 yr. old with leader potential is what we need if Olli is moved. Agree with above poster,someone young but not too young.

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06-18-2008, 11:19 PM
  #41
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I do not blame Martin directly for Joke's poor play last season. Joke just isn't all that good of a player. His skillset is quite limited. He needs to go. At any price. Because it will only go down.

The way Martin handled Joke: I think one has to differenciate between what Martin did during the important games of the season and what he did after we were practically eliminated. If he wanted to motivate Joke and get him out of his funk (in time) Martin should have done something (possibly be harder on) about Joke during the stretch. Now, what Martin chose to do was to keep quiet and be easy on Joke until all was but lost. At which point he unleashed an all-out against Joke. Why would he do that then? What was there to be achieved at that point? Playoffs were a dream at that point.

To me the answer is simple - Martin needed a scapecoat to save his own butt. So he put all the responsibility on Joke - who made it all very easy to Martin by blaming himself aswell.

Martin was in total control of the team. He was both GM and coach. With power comes responsibility. This time it didn't.
no, c'mon. olli set himself up for what happened; he brought it on himself. maybe you could say JM gave him the rope to hang himself and kicked out the chair - i'd buy that. the other way you could look at is that JM generously let his veteran captain try to work through his problems and only after the season was lost did he point the finger. i do agree though that self-preservation probably played a part (said so at the time). it was a tough situation, no doubt. tough for both guys.

oh, and ps - how could a fan of this team... a real fan, be unhappy with what JM has done since becoming GM? i don't get it.

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06-18-2008, 11:58 PM
  #42
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oh, and ps - how could a fan of this team... a real fan, be unhappy with what JM has done since becoming GM? i don't get it.
Martin has made some good moves but if he fails to get us into the playoffs in the next couple of years, then we'll all look back in retrospect at horrible deals. The Vokoun deal was great a year ago, but if we never make the playoffs with Vokoun here and gave up all those draft picks, with which we could have had an impact player, then it won't be a brilliant move. His free agent signings left a lot to be desired last summer. McLean was good but that was about it. He's made some good moves and some bad moves. A bad move IMO was Kolnik being cut. We could have at least traded him for a draft pick if NOTHING else. We get very little offense from our bottom lines and Kolnik was versatile enough to fill in on the first or second line if he had to. He was at least a better option than Dvorak or Peltonen were.

Just because he's made some good looking moves doesn't mean he's the end-all-be-all of GM's. I like what he's done lately and I think we're on the right track, but it depends on what he gets back for Jokinen and what he does in free agency as well. Our roster wasn't put together well enough to make the playoffs last year and it wasn't coached well enough either. He's made lots of good moves and a couple questionable ones, but this weekend will be interesting as we'll see if he gets the huge asking price he's looking for.

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06-18-2008, 11:59 PM
  #43
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Jokinen isn't that good of a player? Now I've heard it all. He's been a point-per-game player without the likes of a top-line winger such as the guys in Ottawa and even TBL have. He's also been able to make McLean and Stumpel better and get more production from them. Not that good a player??? Not a good leader, sure, but not that of a player? Sorry, not at all true.

Cohen's not smart enough to see past Martin's little scheme of making Olli look bad? Sorry, that's weak. From George's blog, and as I predicted:

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/h...,2851893.story



Again, not saying he was right, he just didn't know how. I don't think it had much at all to do with saving his rear-end, especially since he had to think about if he wanted to stay on as the GM. I think he was trying to wake him up.

Commentary had come out earlier about their arguing, perhaps that's what it was about, perhaps not, but we don't know. Olli never woke up, could be that Martin kept on him to see if he would and see if he really wanted to keep him around going into next season?

Dunno, but I don't buy the "he was trying to save his own arse" comments.
Starting from the top of bolded parts:

I hope you don't intentionally misunderstand my post. I especially meant "THAT good of a player". Ofcourse he is good. Just not as good as his point production from the last seasons suggests. This has been said so many times on this board: Joke has an excellent slap shot, and he has really bought into shooting from anywhere at anytime. That on top of huge ice time on PP in otherwise offensively talent-less Panthers has cashed him in big time. Now, I think more and more people see the other, not so desirable, aspects of his game. Also, nothing here is absolutely true or false, these are opinions - mine and yours.

To me George's blog may not be totally accurate about the timing. It seems to me he wrote about something else (DeBoers personality and style) and just took Martin vs. Joke as an example of what DeBoer would possibly handle differently. My memory is like I mentioned in my post. Martin came out in public against Joke too late and in an unnecessary fashion beating a dead horse. To me it's at least a strong possibility that the motivation was to either save one of Martin's jobs or just lead the media to concentrate on Joke's poor play instead of Martin's own failure as the team's heart and soul.

This media game he played so well that it almost makes me want to keep him as GM. LOL.

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06-19-2008, 12:14 AM
  #44
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no, c'mon. olli set himself up for what happened; he brought it on himself. maybe you could say JM gave him the rope to hang himself and kicked out the chair - i'd buy that. the other way you could look at is that JM generously let his veteran captain try to work through his problems and only after the season was lost did he point the finger. i do agree though that self-preservation probably played a part (said so at the time). it was a tough situation, no doubt. tough for both guys.

oh, and ps - how could a fan of this team... a real fan, be unhappy with what JM has done since becoming GM? i don't get it.
I will just skip the "hidden" insult in the end of your post.

I do not judge a GM for single things they have done or haven't done since then and then. I just don't like Martin's style. I don't like his personality behind the bench or his defensive mindset. And I think he will bring in players that complement his thinking, his strategy, his mindset. Otherwise it doesn't make sense to me. Why would you hire Martin to execute a different kind of plan from what he himself is?

And just like there's no need for change for the sake of change, I don't think stability for the sake of stability is good. Stability is needed when the right person has been found. Needless to say I don't think it has.

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06-19-2008, 12:15 AM
  #45
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Starting from the top of bolded parts:

I hope you don't intentionally misunderstand my post. I especially meant "THAT good of a player". Ofcourse he is good. Just not as good as his point production from the last seasons suggests. This has been said so many times on this board: Joke has an excellent slap shot, and he has really bought into shooting from anywhere at anytime. That on top of huge ice time on PP in otherwise offensively talent-less Panthers has cashed him in big time. Now, I think more and more people see the other, not so desirable, aspects of his game. Also, nothing here is absolutely true or false, these are opinions - mine and yours.

To me George's blog may not be totally accurate about the timing. It seems to me he wrote about something else (DeBoers personality and style) and just took Martin vs. Joke as an example of what DeBoer would possibly handle differently. My memory is like I mentioned in my post. Martin came out in public against Joke too late and in an unnecessary fashion beating a dead horse. To me it's at least a strong possibility that the motivation was to either save one of Martin's jobs or just lead the media to concentrate on Joke's poor play instead of Martin's own failure as the team's heart and soul.

This media game he played so well that it almost makes me want to keep him as GM. LOL.
I guess I see what you're saying, but I still think he's a great player. As I said, he's been a ppg guy without much help and he has made those around him better. Is he a Heatley, Spezza, Crosby, Ovechkin, or Datsyuk? No, but what could he do with one of those guys around him? Or some of the guys that they play with?

It was late, but as I said, perhaps Martin was just trying to see if he'd come out of it and still be able to be effective next season. He didn't look good at Worlds, so it's hard to say at this point. It may be the right time to trade him. So far as, the comments, Olli still admitted that Martin was actually right. As I've said, a lot of players have been called out before in the press, sometimes they respond, other times they don't.

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06-19-2008, 12:26 AM
  #46
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Martin has made some good moves but if he fails to get us into the playoffs in the next couple of years, then we'll all look back in retrospect at horrible deals. The Vokoun deal was great a year ago, but if we never make the playoffs with Vokoun here and gave up all those draft picks, with which we could have had an impact player, then it won't be a brilliant move. His free agent signings left a lot to be desired last summer. McLean was good but that was about it. He's made some good moves and some bad moves. A bad move IMO was Kolnik being cut. We could have at least traded him for a draft pick if NOTHING else. We get very little offense from our bottom lines and Kolnik was versatile enough to fill in on the first or second line if he had to. He was at least a better option than Dvorak or Peltonen were.

Just because he's made some good looking moves doesn't mean he's the end-all-be-all of GM's. I like what he's done lately and I think we're on the right track, but it depends on what he gets back for Jokinen and what he does in free agency as well. Our roster wasn't put together well enough to make the playoffs last year and it wasn't coached well enough either. He's made lots of good moves and a couple questionable ones, but this weekend will be interesting as we'll see if he gets the huge asking price he's looking for.
vokoun may or may not pan out (depends on whether the team can actually get over the hump and make the playoffs the next 2-3 years while we're sure he's here) but it was absolutely the right at the time. no doubt. you have a young team with questionable leadership that will not be able to overcome shaky goaltending. it was a no-brainer: you solidify that position.

kolnik? please. *nobody* wanted kolnik... FOR FREE. i liked the kid but he couldn't get a nibble after he was cut loose.

dvo and peltonen are favorite whipping boys but they are role players who, imo, did an OK job. pelts had a less productive year but he was injured more than once and was shifting around all year. neither signing looked brilliant but they rarely do - we're talking about role players.

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06-19-2008, 01:09 AM
  #47
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One of Minnesota's beat writers is saying he is indeed gone.

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06-19-2008, 01:20 AM
  #48
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One of Minnesota's beat writers is saying he is indeed gone.
Do you have a link?

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06-19-2008, 01:24 AM
  #49
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vokoun may or may not pan out (depends on whether the team can actually get over the hump and make the playoffs the next 2-3 years while we're sure he's here) but it was absolutely the right at the time. no doubt. you have a young team with questionable leadership that will not be able to overcome shaky goaltending. it was a no-brainer: you solidify that position.

kolnik? please. *nobody* wanted kolnik... FOR FREE. i liked the kid but he couldn't get a nibble after he was cut loose.

dvo and peltonen are favorite whipping boys but they are role players who, imo, did an OK job. pelts had a less productive year but he was injured more than once and was shifting around all year. neither signing looked brilliant but they rarely do - we're talking about role players.
Right, and as seen in TBL, you need the right role players to make the team better. Star players aren't enough, you need a well-rounded team.

It's not like Martin had a ton to work with, either. I mean, Dudley left the cupboard bare, I think a grand total of 3 to 5 of his draft picks have panned out here and in Tampa. Keenan left a mess. What a lot of the people who don't like Martin fail to realize is that the guy really did have his hands full. The team was a mess and it still needs to be tweeked, obviously. You don't have a revolving door at the GM and coach position without having a mess in the lockerrooom. That's exactly what we had here.

We all get upset because the kids haven't produced like Carolina's or some of the other teams'. Can you blame them? I mean, how many different coaches and systems have these guys had to learn over their short NHL careers? Carolina's kids? How many GMs? Sorry, but it takes a toll. I'm surprised any of them have wanted to stay here. Must be the weather.

Martin's not just a warm body who's good because he hasn't royally screwed up, he's done a pretty good job of implementing his plan. While he's not been stellar, I can't think of anyone out there who I'd like coming in because I think they can do better. Anderson maybe, but he's about it. If not Martin, then who? Do you not think we'd be set further back with a new GM with a new plan and new ideas?

I'm not really expecting the playoffs this season. I REALLY hope so, but we're not going to win the Cup, unless all the planets align or something. I don't want to be Atlanta where we sacrifice to make the playoffs and get ourselves in trouble to appease some angry fans. I also don't want to ne St. Louis where they make the playoffs 25 years in a row and yet never won the Cup. I don't want a team built to make the playoffs, I want a team built to win the Cup. Hopefully that'll translate into us being a team that is a perrenial contender and not one like Carolina or Tampa, but I want the Cup, not just the playoffs.

I'm not saying that the first couple times in that we'll the whole thing, I know it could take time, but I want the Cup, not just 25 years of the playoffs.

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06-19-2008, 01:33 AM
  #50
Heimy
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Do you have a link?
here ya go...

http://ww3.startribune.com/blogs/wil...alue/#comments

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