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Update: RDS - Avery and Straka will not be Re-signed (Post #190)

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Old
06-24-2008, 07:53 PM
  #326
TheSchwab
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
One edit: Sather's made some big mistakes in his career and I don't think signing Avery would be his biggest. It may be a mistake, but let's not make Avery out to be some perennial 30 goal scorer. He's a guy who hasn't scored 20 goals in a season at any point in his career (I don't prorate) and who is 28. He almost had 20 goals last season (and everyone will insert the what if here...) and he came close to 40 points once. If letting this guy go is the worst thing a GM does in his tenure, then that GM had one heck of a tenure.
This is not neccesarily directed at you, but more the topic.

The moment any free-agent seems to stall on a number stats are brought up. This is a different case though because of what Avery brings to the team.

What I love is some of the fans on this board saying we need hard-working, grinding, intense players; yet they see Avery as expendable.

IDK what you guys think about hockey, but as a player you wan't to hear your name a lot usually, and every time he steps on the ice his name is called by an announcer for doing something. Thats why I blew money on his jersey.

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06-24-2008, 08:03 PM
  #327
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Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner View Post

would an extra $500k a year make a huge difference considering we already have dead space on the roster in backman and prucha?
This is boggling my mind.

Backman is making 2.3 mil next year. Prucha is making 1.6.

Unless you can move contracts like that to free up more cap space, there is no way in hell Avery should get anywhere near what he is seeking.

Avery is seeking 3.5/year.

He is NOT worth it.

Gomez = 7.358
Drury = 7.050
Lundqvist = 6.875

21.283 locked up in 3 guys alone.

4 of the top wing positions need to be filled, two of the top 6 defense need to be filled, and we need to make sure we have cap space to pay Dubsinky, Staal, Sanguinetti, Cherepanov, and more of our young players in the future.

We can't get saddled with long term large sum contracts. We need to spot fill, with cheap, short one or two year deals. So there is room for the good, young, cheap players coming up and over in the next few years.

No way does Avery, an agitator, get overpaid if you are a smart GM looking out for the future health of your organization.

His spot can be filled with the cheap, young Swedish forward we just signed.

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06-24-2008, 08:37 PM
  #328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSchwab View Post
This is not neccesarily directed at you, but more the topic.

The moment any free-agent seems to stall on a number stats are brought up. This is a different case though because of what Avery brings to the team.

What I love is some of the fans on this board saying we need hard-working, grinding, intense players; yet they see Avery as expendable.

IDK what you guys think about hockey, but as a player you wan't to hear your name a lot usually, and every time he steps on the ice his name is called by an announcer for doing something. Thats why I blew money on his jersey.

yes, i want a team that brings energy and grittiness, however it doesnt mean i will overpay for those players....do i like avery, hell yes, however i think 3 million for a player who missed over 20 games last season and who, in the past has been a detriment to his team....i think 3 million is a very good contract

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06-24-2008, 08:50 PM
  #329
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Schwab..

Ortmeyer was as hard-working as it gets - do you pay him an extra $500k? In the end, one needs to see results. I don't care if you're a lazy SOB, if you can score 40 goals, you can score 40 goals, plain an simple. I understand the intangibles, etc. - but in the end, we need to see results - what does a player do on the ice and how does that translate into wins. This isn't directed at Avery, but in general - hard work is what needs to be done to achieve a goal. It in and of itself shouldn't be rewarded.

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06-24-2008, 10:34 PM
  #330
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PukkuMikku View Post
This is boggling my mind.
Indeed it is...

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Backman is making 2.3 mil next year. Prucha is making 1.6.

Unless you can move contracts like that to free up more cap space, there is no way in hell Avery should get anywhere near what he is seeking.
I think the Rangers could easily move Prucha and easily waive Backman if the salary cap forces them too..

Quote:
Avery is seeking 3.5/year.

He is NOT worth it.
to you maybe...BUT somebody is going to give him that contract he might even get more money than that...

Quote:
Gomez = 7.358
Drury = 7.050
Lundqvist = 6.875

21.283 locked up in 3 guys alone.
with players like Staal, Dubinsky, Dawes etc making A LOT less for THIS UPCOMING season you can fit Averys $3.5M under the cap...easily...infact that money is probably budgeted for Averys replacement on the TOP TWO LINES...

Quote:
4 of the top wing positions need to be filled, two of the top 6 defense need to be filled, and we need to make sure we have cap space to pay Dubsinky, Staal, Sanguinetti, Cherepanov, and more of our young players in the future.
Ok but the Rangers are still going to need to sign PLAYERS to contracts this offseason. The contracts for Dubinsky and Staal (who the Rangers are going to have to sign ANYWAY next offseason) can easily be fit into next years cap...if averys contract becomes a problem in the future they can always trade him...right? i mean the market for Sean Avery will always be there...and if they can't trade him in the future you know what they can do? they can waive him...problem solved..
Quote:
We can't get saddled with long term large sum contracts. We need to spot fill, with cheap, short one or two year deals. So there is room for the good, young, cheap players coming up and over in the next few years.
cheap short one or two year deals? what free agent that's worth signing is going to come cheap? ph wait do you mean players in the system? who is ready to replace Sean Avery? oh wait you think the "sweedish guy" can.......hey you know what ryan hollweg plays an agitator game and he can skate...lets elevate him to the top 2 lines...why not?


you can't avoid paying guys in the league unless you just want to blow things up and rush the kids to the NHL....That's always good...
Quote:
No way does Avery, an agitator, get overpaid if you are a smart GM looking out for the future health of your organization.
Avery is more than an agitator...I mean his numbers show that he's more than agitator...these games aren't played on paper and what avery brings doesn't always show up in the box score..unless you haven't watched avery play (which is possible i guess) he can play in any situation and for the most part not let his team down...

health of the organization? GM speak..i like it..

what about chemstry with all 3 centers? what about the abilty to play in all situations...what about a guy that sticks up for his teammates...what about a guy that helped his team make the playoffs both seasons he was here...what about a guy that was a difference maker in a playoff series? what about a guy that has shown all us his worth game after game? yeah lets not resign that guy because we can always replace him with a younger cheaper version (as if the complete package avery brings can just morph out of thin air..as if you can teach his game to any kid that comes along)

Quote:
His spot can be filled with the cheap, young Swedish forward we just signed.
yeah lets replace Avery on the TOP TWO LINES with a guy you've only seen play through youtubes...a guy most of us couldn't pick out of a lineup....a guy that before the rangers even signed i'm guessing you didn't know existed...yeah lets replace avery with THAT GUY...that makes a ton of sense...

sean avery has earned his contract and he's going to get his money...for a team that gave away money last year to shanny they can justify giving avery $500k more then they are offering...they can fit $500k under the cap and still fill EVERY need..the rangers let avery go they have another need..but we can always replace him with a cheaper option..are prospect pool is falling all over themselves to play lw on the top 2 lines...

it's like avery never played a game here....

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06-24-2008, 11:00 PM
  #331
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner View Post
Indeed it is...
yeah lets replace Avery on the TOP TWO LINES with a guy you've only seen play through youtubes...a guy most of us couldn't pick out of a lineup....a guy that before the rangers even signed i'm guessing you didn't know existed...yeah lets replace avery with THAT GUY...that makes a ton of sense...

sean avery has earned his contract and he's going to get his money...for a team that gave away money last year to shanny they can justify giving avery $500k more then they are offering...they can fit $500k under the cap and still fill EVERY need..the rangers let avery go they have another need..but we can always replace him with a cheaper option..are prospect pool is falling all over themselves to play lw on the top 2 lines...

it's like avery never played a game here....
Avery isn't a top 6 forward either. At this point you go with the young swede if Avery is asking for the kind of money that is being reported. And what need does Avery fill? Callahan and Dubinsky alread piss people off and Orr fights. what does Avery bring that is worth $4 million?

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06-24-2008, 11:11 PM
  #332
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FutureGM97 View Post
Avery isn't a top 6 forward either. At this point you go with the young swede if Avery is asking for the kind of money that is being reported. And what need does Avery fill? Callahan and Dubinsky alread piss people off and Orr fights. what does Avery bring that is worth $4 million?
Avery has played on the top 2 lines the past two years? that makes him a top 6 forward...on playoff teams....right? how much money are you willing to spend on averys replacement?

btw I don't think avery is worth $4M and Avery hasn't asked that from the rangers from EVERYTHING that's been reported...unless we are talking about what avery is going to sign for with another team...then yeah that's probably $4M bucks year..

it's weird because sather probably could've signed avery for $2.25M last offseason.....why isn't that EVER brought up in this discussion...

can callahan get through a season without getting sent to the minors before we start comparing him to sean avery..also callahan hasn't played on the top 2 lines...why compare him to avery?

orr fights...and brings nothing else..

dubinsky can't fight...(at least he shouldn't) and does not play the same game as sean avery...he plays a good game and took a huge step forward last season but i wouldn't compare the two players....does dubinsky get in people faces like avery? not really..

how many times have you seen "this sweedish guy" play? we want to replace avery with a guy a 25 year old who nobody could name a month ago....what if this "sweedish guy" shows he can't make it in the NHL?

it's like it's the "in" thing to knock what avery brings...i just don't get it...

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06-24-2008, 11:22 PM
  #333
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i'm not knocking what Avery brings and hope he comes back. But Avery isn't a top 6 forward on any other team besides the Rangers. What about Prucha? given the chance he could surpass Avery's offensive output. Callahan plays a very similar style to Avery and Dubinsky may be more offensive and yes he may not be a very good fighter but he is a young kid that is learning to do the dirty work. He is like Avery in that he isn't afraid to go up against guys and fight them. Avery's offense is replaceable on this team. If the Rangers need him for his agitating qualities to win then this team has more important problems.

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06-25-2008, 08:43 AM
  #334
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I've always thought...

that Avery is best-suited on a third line. But, I believe he has second line skills but my problem is his consistency and keeping his head in the game. He scored 15 goals last season in less than 60 games - that's about what you want from your second line players, although you'd prefer him to play in 15 or so more games and hope he keeps up the pace to score 20 goals. Yeah, it's not 30 goals, but he is low on PP goals so his ES goal totals are pretty comparable. In fact, he was second on the team in ES goals - despite playing in 57 games. And since a 'second line winger' is a winger who plays on the second line, I'd say that's fair production. You'd like more PP goals out of him, but it's not his fault that the Rangers couldn't figure out how to run a PP last seaosn. He also had a fair amount of assists, which I typically throw away depending on with whom a player's playing, but in this case, I'd say Avery's a decent setup guy when he has to be.

Think I'm turning around to giving him what he wants. Still have the same caveat - I worry about the potential for distractions as he gets more into the fashion crap as well as his penchant to lose focus out there and sometimes flat-out lose games for the Rangers. Both need to be handled. Add to that the potential disruption in the locker room (something I don't know about and would have to defer to Sather & Co.).

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06-25-2008, 08:57 AM
  #335
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner View Post
has avery spent more then a few games on third line as a ranger?

what do you consider a large contract?

would an extra $500k a year make a huge difference considering we already have dead space on the roster in backman and prucha?

the fact remains (and this isn't a shot at you) if avery played for the stars (for example) and was a free agent this whole board (EXCEPT the posters who wanted hollweg out of the league for his hit in montreal) would want avery on the team...the rangers would probably be the first in line to give him what he wants...

not signing avery could be the single biggest mistake of sathers tenure here...

Going point by point;


Avery playing on the 2nd line, doesn't mean he's not a "third" line player.. Skills wise, IMO, he's a very good 3rd liner or a passable 2nd liner.


Anything over 3.5 is too expensive for him. But the biggest thing to me would be the length of the contract. I do not want them tied long term to a wild card.


Prucha's and Backman's contracts have nothing to do with Avery's. One overpaid guy (or two) does not mean another should be added. And yes, $500K does mean something as it all adds up.


If Avery played for someone else, I would absolutely have the same opinion. Talented, mean ******* that the Rangers could use, but not the kind of skills that deserves the big scratch and the kind of personality that makes a long term contract dangerous.



Not signing Avery very well could be a mistake for the Rangers next season, but to me, signing him for too much and too long would be the far bigger mistake that would hurt much longer.

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06-25-2008, 10:05 AM
  #336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner View Post
Avery has played on the top 2 lines the past two years? that makes him a top 6 forward...on playoff teams....right? how much money are you willing to spend on averys replacement?
Avery playing on our top two lines doesn't necessarily mean he's suddenly a top-six forward. If anything, it shows our lack of depth in top-six talent on the wings.

Quote:
it's weird because sather probably could've signed avery for $2.25M last offseason.....why isn't that EVER brought up in this discussion...
Possibly because none of us here (as far as I know) are keen to the inner workings of the Rangers organization. Maybe the majority of the players dislike Avery? In fact, some teammates (Vally) have spoken out against him in the media.

Quote:
can callahan get through a season without getting sent to the minors before we start comparing him to sean avery..also callahan hasn't played on the top 2 lines...why compare him to avery?
I don't think Callahan his a replacement for Avery, but I think it's ridiculous to say you can't compare the two because Callahan hasn't played on the top 2 lines.


Quote:
it's like it's the "in" thing to knock what avery brings...i just don't get it...
I don't think anyone is knocking what Avery brings to the table, I think they're knocking the price that he's looking for. Frankly, if Avery loved NY as much as he claims to, he'd take Sathers offer and be happy about it. Thats the kind of organization this is, they don't negotiate with players who should be happy to be where they are. Sather knows he's in a big market and can draw top-talent for the right price. Did you ever stop to think Sather has another option available that we don't know about? For all we know Maloney called up Sather, dangled Carcillo and Sather is using it as leverage to get Avery to sign for less. Maybe Burke is being forced to deal Perry and wants to see him out of the Western Conference and is willing to cut a better deal for his fishing buddy?

Sather, despite common belief, isn't an idiot. He knows damn well the statistics involving Avery. Hell, Avery's agent sat down with him on draft day and gave him a list of statistical reasons to resign Sean. If Sather didn't bite, it's pretty clear he has a plan of some sort.

Would I be happy to see Avery back in blue next season? Of course, we all would. However, if that means dealing him a Hartnell like contract (who is much closer to being worth that kind of money than Avery), then I'll wave 'so long' to Sean as he packs up his Dior filled closet and goes to another city.

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06-25-2008, 10:26 AM
  #337
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trx...

in 57 games he scored more even strength goals than all Rangers except for one. Detroit had three wingers with more ES goals than Avery. PITT had two. Philly did have four, although Knuble, with 29 goals, only had one more ES goal than Avery. Ottawa had three.

Again, 15 goals doesn't sound like much for a second liner, but 13 goals for a second liner, who should be among the four top scoring wingers on a team, isn't all that bad since we're looking for ES goals and not talking about PP goals. Is it a reflection of the Rangers' depth? The fact that the best any Ranger did in terms of goals was only 25 is an issue, but it's not an issue that's associated with the second line winger. While it's not a perfect number, and it's not a perfect science, his numbers and his skill do suggest he can be a decent second liner. Of course if you don't have a top line, good defense and a goalie to win games for you, it's a moot point who's on your second line.

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06-25-2008, 11:07 AM
  #338
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Where will Avery go (assuming he doesn't return)?

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06-25-2008, 10:29 PM
  #339
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davisian View Post
Going point by point;
I'll try to, but I really don't want to beat this topic up anymore..I mean I can't really add anything new but I'll try to just address your points..

Quote:
Avery playing on the 2nd line, doesn't mean he's not a "third" line player.. Skills wise, IMO, he's a very good 3rd liner or a passable 2nd liner.
I think it's tought to label Avery a "good" third liner or a "passable 2nd liner" the contrast in one line to another when the Rangers role 3 lines (or excluding Betts line when they role 4 lines) is negliable. If Avery plays with Gomez, Drury, or Dubinsky he is playing with a 2nd line center no matter what....Avery has played on the top 2 lines for his whole time here..it's not by accident...

Quote:
Anything over 3.5 is too expensive for him. But the biggest thing to me would be the length of the contract. I do not want them tied long term to a wild card.

I agree with your base amount for a season. I don't think the Rangers should go above $3.5M. I'm really not to concerned with the number of years simply because the league is so year to year now. The Rangers could always trade Avery if they had too. I said in other posts that I think if Avery signed a 3 year deal here I'd give it no chance he'd finish the contract a Ranger....But....For this coming season Avery is needed and what he is asking for isn't outragious...it's what a "good 3rd liner" "passable 2nd liner" is getting paid around the league.

Quote:
Prucha's and Backman's contracts have nothing to do with Avery's. One overpaid guy (or two) does not mean another should be added. And yes, $500K does mean something as it all adds up.
I think in general these are the two contracts the Rangers can dump to improve the team next season....

My point about the $500k is that with these two contracts on the books they are more of wasted money then Averys extra $500k..if that makes any sense...
Quote:
If Avery played for someone else, I would absolutely have the same opinion. Talented, mean ******* that the Rangers could use, but not the kind of skills that deserves the big scratch and the kind of personality that makes a long term contract dangerous.
Well i can't try to change your mind about your first point...(i doubt i could) and i don't disagree that signing Avery is a bit of risk. I'm just not afraid to take the risk...

Quote:
Not signing Avery very well could be a mistake for the Rangers next season, but to me, signing him for too much and too long would be the far bigger mistake that would hurt much longer.
I'm repeating myself again here when i say the league is so year to year that unless you do something stupid with the over 35 year olds or give a guy a NMC it's tough to get hurt by long term contracts...(like sign shannys contract last year..unlike Jagr he isn't the type of player you sign to an easy to reach insentive laden deal...i know way off topic..)

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06-27-2008, 09:30 PM
  #340
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Originally Posted by FutureGM97 View Post
Avery isn't a top 6 forward either.
Been banging this drum for a while, but his point total with the Rangers show differently. So to does his overall play.
Quote:
But Avery isn't a top 6 forward on any other team besides the Rangers.
Really? You have no longer to look than some of the playoff teams.

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