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Bouwmeester wants out of Florida

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Old
06-26-2008, 08:07 AM
  #101
Carlos Ranger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PukkuMikku View Post
Sorry, no chance, i don't care who it is, i do not disassemble what we have for one guy. Don't care WHO it is. The whole is greater then the individuals. And all of our highly talented youth combined equals one hell of a dynamic team for many many years. I'm not selling THAT for Bouwmeester, no chance.
I agree with some of your points, but you're acting like JBo would be a 38 year old rental. He's 24 and already an all star defenseman who will be annually challenging for the Norris soon. Sangs & DZ both have the potential to be very good offensive dmen, but JBo is already the complete package, so yes I would give up ONE of Sangs/DZ in a package deal for a guy like JBo in a heartbeat if the opportunity arose... if you don't then you're not managing your assets too well if you'd rather keep a few good players instead of trading for a great player.

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06-26-2008, 08:35 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by PukkuMikku View Post
Sanguinetti's OHL numbers.
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...php3?pid=80230

Del Zotto's OHL numbers.
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...php3?pid=96525

Bouwmeester's OHL numbers.
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...php3?pid=46419


The point made about Sanguinetti not putting up AHL numbers yet, despite only playing 6 games at the end of the year for Hartford, well Bouwmeester had even LESS impressive numbers in the AHL.

Sanguinetti our produced him every year in Juniors at comparable ages. And Del Zotto not far behind.


I stand by my statement that Sanguinetti AND Del Zotto have higher ceilings then that of Bouwmeester.


The REAL blunder would be dealing our youth.


The best trades are often the ones you DON'T make.


And don't give me the "proven NHL talent vs. potential" nonsense. That is the same mentality, regardless of Bouwmeester's age, that put the Rangers in a dark age of no farm system and no playoffs.

You absolutely DO NOT sell your future for one guy.

I'll take all of our top youth together as a unit and a team over any ONE guy, every day of the week, 100% of the time.


Just adding... find me any defenseman, other then Lidstrom, in North America who puts up the numbers Sanguinetti did. I don't care what level it is, 29 goals and 70 points and over a PPG as a defenseman is sick. And Del Zotto is just as impressive. If you trade THAT you're nuts. We have potentially the two highest scoring defensemen for the next decade.
I'm no minor league hockey expert, but isn't the WHL considered more defense-oriented than the OHL? Bouwmeester had more points at 18 in the WHL than Sanguinetti at 18 in the OHL. In the OHL, I would have to assume J-Bo's offensive numbers would be even more impressive.

Also, offensive numbers aren't what makes a defenseman great. Bouwmeester isn't highly regarded because of his offensive game. You say to compare Sanguinetti's OHL numbers to Lidstrom's. If they're better, what's the point? That he's going to be better Lidstrom?

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06-26-2008, 08:41 AM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbop View Post
Dubinsky + Sanguinetti + #2 next year. That could get it done, won't deplete our system and we let Anisimov take Dubinsky's place. Value for Value.
No it wouldn't. Dubinsky is the only roster player. No one trades a franchise d-man for a future top-six center with 1 year's experience. Throw Tyutin and Dawes (or MAYBE Prucha) in as the other roster players to deal, they might listen (though I tend to think mentioning Prucha would be a fatal stumbling block in any trade talks for guys of Bouwmeester's caliber). Then again, they'd likely demand Staal, they need big, defensive d-men not named Mezei.

But that's just tangible exchange rate. Bouwmeester will command AT LEAST one first round pick (unless you're trading Malkin or Zetterberg for him). Sanguinetti would undoubtedly be the top prospect involved (or maybe Cherepanov). Anisimov, contrary to popular belief, is not a top prospect.

So Dubinsky, Tyutin, Prucha a first and Sanguinetti. That might do it, but consider: our picks for the next few years will be low, and other team's can afford better offers. So that might not be enough. Throw in a second round, another roster player, Sauer or Korpikoski, and it should do it. If you don't wanna sell the farm, it'll take Staal and a 2nd or even a 1st.

The question is, is either deal worth it?

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06-26-2008, 08:49 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by BobMarleyNYR View Post
No it wouldn't. Dubinsky is the only roster player. No one trades a franchise d-man for a future top-six center with 1 year's experience. Throw Tyutin and Dawes (or MAYBE Prucha) in as the other roster players to deal, they might listen (though I tend to think mentioning Prucha would be a fatal stumbling block in any trade talks for guys of Bouwmeester's caliber). Then again, they'd likely demand Staal, they need big, defensive d-men not named Mezei.

But that's just tangible exchange rate. Bouwmeester will command AT LEAST one first round pick (unless you're trading Malkin or Zetterberg for him). Sanguinetti would undoubtedly be the top prospect involved (or maybe Cherepanov). Anisimov, contrary to popular belief, is not a top prospect.

So Dubinsky, Tyutin, Prucha a first and Sanguinetti. That might do it, but consider: our picks for the next few years will be low, and other team's can afford better offers. So that might not be enough. Throw in a second round, another roster player, Sauer or Korpikoski, and it should do it. If you don't wanna sell the farm, it'll take Staal and a 2nd or even a 1st.

The question is, is either deal worth it?
Are you crazy? No way it would cost that much. Look at what they got for Jokinen, and Luongo. if Bouwmeester really doesn't want to be there than he will probably just sign a 1 yr deal to whomever this offseason and become a UFA next year. FLA has no leverage in this negotiation. Chances are somebody will do that are very high. Sign him to a good 1 yr deal, if FLA matches than they match but they are going to be guaranteed to trade him at the deadline, and if they don't match than after January you work out a long term deal for him before he hits UFA status. Fla is basically screwed, b/c Bouwmeester doesn't want to be here, and controls his own destiny.

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06-26-2008, 08:52 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by PukkuMikku View Post
It IS selling your future by giving up Sanguinetti, Anisimov, 2009 1st round pick, Dawes, and what ever else is being proposed. THAT is selling your future.

Sorry, this overvaluing other team's youth and undermining our own is ridiculous.

Sanguinetti and Del Zotto are TEENAGERS. Their defensive play will improve.

You can NOT teach what they can do with the puck.


Sorry, no chance, i don't care who it is, i do not disassemble what we have for one guy. Don't care WHO it is. The whole is greater then the individuals. And all of our highly talented youth combined equals one hell of a dynamic team for many many years. I'm not selling THAT for Bouwmeester, no chance.
Maybe you should read up on the Jaybo threads in the Trade forum. People from Toronto are offering Antropov and Kaberle for Bouwmeester. Names like Parise, Pitkanen, Cogliano, Frolov, Barker, Michalek, Carle and Setoguchi are all being thrown in as well. It isn't a bunch of over zealous Ranger fans who think so highly of Bouwmeester, it's virtually everyone.

Just curious, what's your plan if these prospects don't pan out? What if Sangs is a total bust at the professional level? What if DZ turns out to be worse in his own end than Brian Campbell and can't put up huge numbers in the AHL? What do you do then?

I like Sangs as much as anyone and I'm certainly coming around to DZ, but to say they're completely off limits to a 24y/o #1 d-man is absolute nonsense.

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06-26-2008, 08:57 AM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherepanisimov View Post
doubt they would make the same mistake twice.
apparently they are rebuilding, so why would they want to trade their franchise player, who is only about 25?
Here's the thing.

I don't think that they view the deal as a mistake. I think that they were probably caught in a situation where they HAD to move him and everyone know it and they got what they could.

Tanguay was dealt for a 1st rounder JUST a 1st rounder? I think the trade market was a bit soft

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06-26-2008, 09:15 AM
  #107
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Actually, JBo is a RFA. Martin is rumored to have put his value at $6.5MM, why not throw $7MM at him and see what happens?

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06-26-2008, 09:16 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Forechecker View Post
Because once a guy says that, you gotta get rid of him. Can't have your franchise guy be miserable. I think I'd give up Sangs for him. It'd be tough of Sangs who wants nothing more than to play for the Rangers, but...
you think?


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06-26-2008, 09:31 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by cjdv16 View Post
you think?

Yes, I think. In that I would do it, but it's tough to give up that kind of potential.

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06-26-2008, 09:32 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Forechecker View Post
Actually, JBo is a RFA. Martin is rumored to have put his value at $6.5MM, why not throw $7MM at him and see what happens?
b/c that would be 4 first round draft picks.... that is definately not worth it.

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06-26-2008, 09:41 AM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rags225 View Post
b/c that would be 4 first round draft picks.... that is definately not worth it.
Isn't it better to give up future compensation than relatively known quantities?

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06-26-2008, 09:46 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
Tanguay was dealt for a 1st rounder JUST a 1st rounder? I think the trade market was a bit soft
The difference is that Tanguay makes $5.75M and just came off a one of the worst years of his career in terms of production. There's not a value there in today's NHL.

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06-26-2008, 09:48 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Forechecker View Post
Isn't it better to give up future compensation than relatively known quantities?
i don't like the idea of 4 first round picks though. especially in the cap era, where you need to draft those future stars and play them for cheap. to me no player except Ovechkin, Crosby would be worth 4 first round picks.

especially since i'm not sure we will even make the playoffs next year b/c our offense will be in shambles if we don't sign Jagr and another top 6 forward. I still don't think gomez and drury can carry a team offensively.

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06-26-2008, 09:48 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Forechecker View Post
Isn't it better to give up future compensation than relatively known quantities?
Problem is the other team with the asset that is coveted has to agree to unknown qualities. If i'm Florida, i'm not giving up Bo without getting at least one solid piece of NHL ready talent. Maybe an everyday player and a combination of picks/prospects. They have to get something to show for it. But again this is florida we're talking about, Jaques Martin is horrendeous with the player moves, that franchise is in trouble if they don't start getting good returns on their trades.

I think the competition for a player of Bo's caliber will drive the price way up. I can see teams willing to give up prime picks and players.

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06-26-2008, 09:51 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
is that deal fair i put up?.....i would rather hang onto the first from next year but i would throw it in if it is needed
who cares what your willing to give, I've never seen a stupid proposal on here come to light, offer your first round picks for the next 10 years who cares.]

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06-26-2008, 09:55 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by NJrocket24 View Post
Problem is the other team with the asset that is coveted has to agree to unknown qualities. If i'm Florida, i'm not giving up Bo without getting at least one solid piece of NHL ready talent. Maybe an everyday player and a combination of picks/prospects. They have to get something to show for it. But again this is florida we're talking about, Jaques Martin is horrendeous with the player moves, that franchise is in trouble if they don't start getting good returns on their trades.

I think the competition for a player of Bo's caliber will drive the price way up. I can see teams willing to give up prime picks and players.
If JBo signs the offer sheet @ $7MM the compensation is in draft picks, not NHL players. Florida's only option is to outbid the other team or except the draft picks.

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06-26-2008, 10:05 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by jdmef8vtec View Post
who cares what your willing to give, I've never seen a stupid proposal on here come to light, offer your first round picks for the next 10 years who cares.]
Classy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forechecker View Post
If JBo signs the offer sheet @ $7MM the compensation is in draft picks, not NHL players. Florida's only option is to outbid the other team or except the draft picks.
I'm a little weary of the 4 1st's in compensation. I think the 2 1st's, a 2nd and a 3rd would be the limit. Two years of missing the first round is manageable I think, but 4 its going to be tough unless you deal players to get that first rounder back.

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06-26-2008, 10:06 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Manhattan Blue View Post
I'm not saying Dubinsky is worth more than JB, because he isn't, but I just don't think we can afford to trade him even for JB. He's going to be the young centerpiece on offense that brings all the forward youth together. I fear that if we trade him away, we'll just have disjointed prospects like Cherepanov, Anisimov, Korpikoski, Grachev without that glue and substance Dubi can and will provide.

If guys like Sanguinetti, Tyutin, Girardi, and Anisimov along with picks can't get it done its not worth it IMO.
The guy I think is being overvalued more than anyone else is Dubinsky.

I'd like to see what Dubinsky can do without playing a line with Jaromir Jagr before even thinking about referring to him as a "centerpiece". Frankly, I don't think he ever will be considered a centerpiece. He was never projected to be a true, 1st-line center, and I doubt he will end up one.

Sure, he brings good things to the table. Great work ethic, above-average speed and skill, but come on people, this guy isn't an elite talent. But that's nothing to be ashamed of, he was never expected to be.

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06-26-2008, 10:14 AM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
I'm a little weary of the 4 1st's in compensation. I think the 2 1st's, a 2nd and a 3rd would be the limit. Two years of missing the first round is manageable I think, but 4 its going to be tough unless you deal players to get that first rounder back.
Martin, I believe on record somewhere, has said they'll match anything that seems reasonable. I heard the $6.5MM figure on NHL Live or somewhere, so it makes sense that if WE REALLLLLLY wanted JBo, it'd have to be north of $6.5MM. I have no idea if he's worth that or not.

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06-26-2008, 10:19 AM
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forechecker View Post
Actually, JBo is a RFA. Martin is rumored to have put his value at $6.5MM, why not throw $7MM at him and see what happens?
Paul? Martin? It must be... but the only Martin I can think of worth 7M is Brodeur. Holy crap... does Paul Martin truly think he's worth 6.5M???

Half of that is spot on for him, a million more is pushing, but 6.5? I knew this UFA thing would get outta control a few years after the CBA.

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06-26-2008, 10:20 AM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Forechecker View Post
Martin, I believe on record somewhere, has said they'll match anything that seems reasonable. I heard the $6.5MM figure on NHL Live or somewhere, so it makes sense that if WE REALLLLLLY wanted JBo, it'd have to be north of $6.5MM. I have no idea if he's worth that or not.
I'm sure thats probably the case, however, if he really wants out of Florida, I'd imagine they would take the highest compensation and let him go.

I just don't like the idea of offer sheets for all those 1st rounders. 2 1st's in my limit.

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06-26-2008, 10:23 AM
  #122
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You guys really are a joke.

Who the hell brings up the Ollie trade or saying he wants out so his demands are lowered.

THEY HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH EACH OTHER!!!!

EVERY team in the NHL will be interested in him and at least see what the demands are. He has A LOT more interest than Ollie.

You fail as GM's trying to put deals together. You're NOT trying to figure out what value is equal to Bou. You gotta figure out what value will beat OTHER team's offers.

There will be better offers out there than the crap ones you guys are putting up. You have to beat THOSE OTHER offers.

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06-26-2008, 10:34 AM
  #123
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You guys really are a joke.

Who the hell brings up the Ollie trade or saying he wants out so his demands are lowered.

THEY HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH EACH OTHER!!!!

EVERY team in the NHL will be interested in him and at least see what the demands are. He has A LOT more interest than Ollie.

You fail as GM's trying to put deals together. You're NOT trying to figure out what value is equal to Bou. You gotta figure out what value will beat OTHER team's offers.

There will be better offers out there than the crap ones you guys are putting up. You have to beat THOSE OTHER offers.
Yeah, the Xbox trades, we get them all the time around here.

Like you said, its not about being fair, its about beating out ALL other offers.

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06-26-2008, 10:37 AM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
Maybe you should read up on the Jaybo threads in the Trade forum. People from Toronto are offering Antropov and Kaberle for Bouwmeester. Names like Parise, Pitkanen, Cogliano, Frolov, Barker, Michalek, Carle and Setoguchi are all being thrown in as well. It isn't a bunch of over zealous Ranger fans who think so highly of Bouwmeester, it's virtually everyone.

Just curious, what's your plan if these prospects don't pan out? What if Sangs is a total bust at the professional level? What if DZ turns out to be worse in his own end than Brian Campbell and can't put up huge numbers in the AHL? What do you do then?

I like Sangs as much as anyone and I'm certainly coming around to DZ, but to say they're completely off limits to a 24y/o #1 d-man is absolute nonsense.
What if, what if, what if.

By letting them develop you keep your cost down and have the financial flexibility under the cap to make up for any "busts" via free agency and trade.

And, they're not all going to be busts.

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06-26-2008, 10:37 AM
  #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobMarleyNYR View Post
Paul? Martin? It must be... but the only Martin I can think of worth 7M is Brodeur. Holy crap... does Paul Martin truly think he's worth 6.5M???

Half of that is spot on for him, a million more is pushing, but 6.5? I knew this UFA thing would get outta control a few years after the CBA.
Jacques Martin GM of Florida in reference to JBo.

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