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06-27-2008, 12:06 PM
  #1
I Am Chariot
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Opinions: Sundin vs Nylander

NY Rangers situation specific.

Two very different players. Obviously Mats has been a closer to Elite player.

But as a center for Jaromir Jagr, How do these two compare?

Is Mats an obvious upgrade to Nylander, no brainer?

Does being able to sign Sundin to 1 year deal trump Nylanders 4-5 year deal Sather passed on?


Do you think Mats style would compliment Jagr as Nylanders style did?

Or was Nylander to Jagr-centric, where Sundin can dominate some on his own?

It was disappointing to lose the chemistry Jagr and Nylander had. Could Mats give that back AND THAN SOME, with is more physical, dominant style?


Thought?

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06-27-2008, 12:09 PM
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Jaromir Jagr
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There is no more Nylander in the discussion, though... so I'm not sure where this is coming from in terms of a center for Jagr.

Regardless, it doesn't look like Jagr's returning, and hence we shouldn't sign Sundin.

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06-27-2008, 12:09 PM
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The days of signing people to ridiculous contracts to satisfy 37 year old Jagr are over.

If Jagr can't play with who we have, then it is time to let him walk.

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06-27-2008, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Staal View Post
There is no more Nylander in the discussion, though... so I'm not sure where this is coming from in terms of a center for Jagr.
A GM builds for today and tomorrow. Todays deals, passed on deals all effect every other deal down the road.


Sather let Nylander walk. He wanted too many years. Sather weighs that against what other options exist.

Gomez/ Drury looked good but it was a gamble.( I still agree with the signings) It didnt work as far as the cost of breaking up what was one of the top #1 lines in the NHL

Now but 1 year later another UFA day approaches and a Sundin is available.

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06-27-2008, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PukkuMikku View Post
The days of signing people to ridiculous contracts to satisfy 37 year old Jagr are over.

If Jagr can't play with who we have, then it is time to let him walk.
Wishful thinking or are you just new around here?




If Sather signs Jagr, than the other pieces come in to try to compliment what Jagr does best.

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06-27-2008, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Chariot View Post
NY Rangers situation specific.

Two very different players. Obviously Mats has been a closer to Elite player.

But as a center for Jaromir Jagr, How do these two compare?

Is Mats an obvious upgrade to Nylander, no brainer?

Does being able to sign Sundin to 1 year deal trump Nylanders 4-5 year deal Sather passed on?


Do you think Mats style would compliment Jagr as Nylanders style did?

Or was Nylander to Jagr-centric, where Sundin can dominate some on his own?

It was disappointing to lose the chemistry Jagr and Nylander had. Could Mats give that back AND THAN SOME, with is more physical, dominant style?


Thought?
Other than the fact that they're both from Sweden, they don't compare. Sundin is/was an elite superstar player. Nylander is/was a support player.

The fact that we're having this conversation is the reason why I'm down on Jagr. He is an elite player yet his production seems to depend on whoever is centering him. Jagr should make his centers, not the other way around.

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06-27-2008, 12:31 PM
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Unfortunately, if Jagr returns I think Slats will definitely chase down Sundin, probably at the cost of upgrading the D if necessary.

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06-27-2008, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
The fact that we're having this conversation is the reason why I'm down on Jagr. He is an elite player yet his production seems to depend on whoever is centering him. Jagr should make his centers, not the other way around.

He did sort of pump up Nylanders stats. Dubis too.

But obviously still not enough. Its one thing to demand all the other teams D attention, but Jagr wasnt finishing last season. If he can start to finish again the Rangers instantly become a more dynamic threat. It carries over down the lines too.

Sather refused Nylanders asking price, which was unfortunate but I think most would agree was the right move.

Does signing Sundin essentially upgrade Nylander 1 year later without the long term commitment?

Assuming it s a 1 year deal

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06-27-2008, 12:58 PM
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I agree with Singn'..

although I don't mind Jagr being resigned, I've been saying for three years that this organization is in a dangerous position because it built players around/for Jagr and what happens when he leaves/can't do it anymore. And here we are...

Regarding signing Sundin...I'm not particularly 100% against signing a 37 year old. There is a decent chance this guy goes out there and does what he's done the past 15 years in the next two seasons. 37-39 year olds can be useful, believe it or not. The question is, is this a need for the organization? Can the decks be shuffled so the lineup with Sundin is better than the lineup without Sundin? And would he come without a no movement clause - if not, then how can you say yes when you hope Anisimov can play in the NHL the year after next, and not on a fourth line, and hopefully Dubi looks like a real second line centerman and Gomez is still playing well. You have to move someone (this all assumes Drury moves to wing, which I'm not excited about), and the oldest, most expensive guy may make the most sense.

I dunno - there are a lot of options out there, and I'm not sure Sundin's the best option out there.

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06-27-2008, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
although I don't mind Jagr being resigned, I've been saying for three years that this organization is in a dangerous position because it built players around/for Jagr and what happens when he leaves/can't do it anymore. And here we are...

Regarding signing Sundin...I'm not particularly 100% against signing a 37 year old. There is a decent chance this guy goes out there and does what he's done the past 15 years in the next two seasons. 37-39 year olds can be useful, believe it or not. The question is, is this a need for the organization? Can the decks be shuffled so the lineup with Sundin is better than the lineup without Sundin? And would he come without a no movement clause - if not, then how can you say yes when you hope Anisimov can play in the NHL the year after next, and not on a fourth line, and hopefully Dubi looks like a real second line centerman and Gomez is still playing well. You have to move someone (this all assumes Drury moves to wing, which I'm not excited about), and the oldest, most expensive guy may make the most sense.

I dunno - there are a lot of options out there, and I'm not sure Sundin's the best option out there.
Great post. My problems with signing Sundin:

1) Does this team really need to invest in another center a position that is arguably a strength right now?

2) You are still counting on two late 30 something players to produce the majority of the offense.

3) You are paying your current second line center a lot of money. Shouldn't getting him a scorer be a priority?

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06-27-2008, 01:21 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Great post. My problems with signing Sundin:

1) Does this team really need to invest in another center a position that is arguably a strength right now?

2) You are still counting on two late 30 something players to produce the majority of the offense.

3) You are paying your current second line center a lot of money. Shouldn't getting him a scorer be a priority?
I dont disagree, but where is Gomers scoring winger?

Its not Hossa. Malone? Rolston? Bertuzzi? Waiting for Cherepenov to "maybe" live up to expectations?


I'm not sure that guy is out there on the free agent market.

Trade for him, give up assets vs Sundin for a 1 year until next UFA season where the homegrowns might be closer to stepping up, or better selection of snipers are available on July 1st?

LOL Maybe Im just trying to convince myself in preparation for the inevitable

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06-27-2008, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Chariot View Post
I dont disagree, but where is Gomers scoring winger?

Its not Hossa. Malone? Rolston? Bertuzzi? Waiting for Cherepenov to "maybe" live up to expectations?


I'm not sure that guy is out there on the free agent market.

Trade for him, give up assets vs Sundin for a 1 year until next UFA season where the homegrowns might be closer to stepping up, or better selection of snipers are available on July 1st?

LOL Maybe Im just trying to convince myself in preparation for the inevitable
I understand your point. And I really don't know where that winger is. That's why I've maintained that Sather needs to get creative and make a trade.

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06-27-2008, 01:48 PM
  #13
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Agreed. Its time to parlay the assets into the missing piece.

Hes been so thrifty post lockout. Jagr was maybe his best trade ever. Its like he knows he'll never get that lucky again

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06-27-2008, 02:00 PM
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#3...

is where my focus would be Singn'. This team is short on wingers. Among currently signed wingers, Prucha is the most experienced with the most goals. I believe he's followed by Cally then Dawes. After that, we're talking prospects, most of whom project to be good third liners, as well as some fourth liners. They need three top six wingers, unless they think Prucha will turn it around (no evidence they think that). Dawes needs pressure taken off him also. Not sure putting Drury to the wing is part of the solution (to me, people talk about players changing positions too freely - it's a move to a different position that requires adjustment - which can be difficult when you're talking about a game that's big on chemistry).

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06-27-2008, 02:57 PM
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just a possibility but what if the rangers want to put dubi on jagr's wing so that when he leaves the rangers can keep him on the top two lines on gomez's wing?

dubinsky-sundin-jagr
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sjostrom-betts-byers/orr

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06-27-2008, 03:01 PM
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You want to put..

a 22 year old who could be a future second line centerman on this team in the future, and who's been a centerman all his life, on the wing so this team can fit in Drury? Now that's something I'd be totally against. That would severely affect Dubi's development as a centerman and would be very short-term oriented.

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06-27-2008, 03:25 PM
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If the team brings back Jagr then I would definitely be on board with Sundin.

Instantly I would move Drury to Gomez' wing and see how that goes. Perhaps even Drury on the left side with Sundin and Jagr.

Outside of that, the team needs wingers... If they can't manage to bring any of them in, then go with kids and focus on defense.

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06-27-2008, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
a 22 year old who could be a future second line centerman on this team in the future, and who's been a centerman all his life, on the wing so this team can fit in Drury? Now that's something I'd be totally against. That would severely affect Dubi's development as a centerman and would be very short-term oriented.
Unless they're hoping to avoid the log-jam at center by moving Dubinsky to the wing in a power-forward role.

Not necessarily something I can see him doing though.

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06-27-2008, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
Unless they're hoping to avoid the log-jam at center by moving Dubinsky to the wing in a power-forward role.

Not necessarily something I can see him doing though.
Dubinsky woudl not move to the Wing, it would be Drury and on Colorado he played their........i am sure it's not a big move for him

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06-27-2008, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Vitto79 View Post
Dubinsky woudl not move to the Wing, it would be Drury and on Colorado he played their........i am sure it's not a big move for him
I know Drury has played wing, but thats because Colorado was so deep at center and he was coming in as a rookie. Who says Dubinsky, or Anisimov for that matter, couldn't wind up in a similar situation?

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06-27-2008, 07:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
I understand your point. And I really don't know where that winger is. That's why I've maintained that Sather needs to get creative and make a trade.
It's understood that we'd have to give up prime assets for that winger, and that is something that no one on here wants to do.

It's a giant conflict of interest here.

Do we trade for Gaborik or Kovalchuk? Who is available that could help the Rangers? Make a trade for a guy like Afinogenov, who won't cost as much? Bring in Rolston, who most seem to be against? Malone is overrated, and will likely not live up to his contract.

On the other hand, the logjam at center would be overwhelming. Drury has to move to wing then, and if Dubinsky is to play center, where do we put him, 3rd line? Is that going to hamper his development? If they could trade Drury, I'd say do it, but that's a terrible contract - which I've said from day one - and I can't think of a team that would take it off of our hands.

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06-27-2008, 07:25 PM
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Nylander and Straka played very well with Jagr because they were both willing to play off of him. A lot of Rangers fans I know were very exciting when Gomez signed figuring that he'd stick with Jagr and Shanahan. In the words of one hockey writer I know (I will not name him, works at an NY paper): "Gomez is great, he will move his hips, get grinding ... now Jagr can float, Shannie can float and look for one-timers."

Well, obviously it did not play out that way and that is because I think at this stage in his career Jagr has to dominate the puck and with good reason, he is only a couple years removed from a brilliant all-around season where he was equally adept as a setup guy or scorer.

I think Sundin could score quite a few goals playing with Jagr but I don't know that their chemistry would be ideal. With the big offer coming in from Omsk, it may be moot now.

As for Nylander, I thought the money spent on Drury would have been better spent on him and a defenseman, for what the Rangers paid they could have probably re-signed Nylander and brought in Hannan on someone like that. That said, I don't think the Capitals are all that excited to have Nylander under these contract terms, so no huge loss there.

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06-27-2008, 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
Unfortunately, if Jagr returns I think Slats will definitely chase down Sundin, probably at the cost of upgrading the D if necessary.

i actually think sather can get sundin, if he wants him, and still upgrade the defense.

tricky, but doable.

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06-28-2008, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Chariot View Post
NY Rangers situation specific.

Two very different players. Obviously Mats has been a closer to Elite player.

But as a center for Jaromir Jagr, How do these two compare?

Is Mats an obvious upgrade to Nylander, no brainer?

Does being able to sign Sundin to 1 year deal trump Nylanders 4-5 year deal Sather passed on?


Do you think Mats style would compliment Jagr as Nylanders style did?

Or was Nylander to Jagr-centric, where Sundin can dominate some on his own?

It was disappointing to lose the chemistry Jagr and Nylander had. Could Mats give that back AND THAN SOME, with is more physical, dominant style?


Thought?
While your Jerry avatar gives you cred, digging up Nylander again when we replaced him with a far better player (Gomez) is pointless. Gomez was 27 and Nylander wanted a deal to play until he's 40. He was not the elite player Gomez is and needed Jagr to be what he was.

Ask the Caps who saw him for like 5 minutes last season if he's worth it. The older you get, the more injury prone you get.

Sundin is a big time game breaker. Nylander was a good little player that complimented Jagr.

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