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Official "welcome Alex Tanguay" thread

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Old
06-28-2008, 10:33 AM
  #951
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Do you guys think Tanguay can play the point on PP and replace Streit (since he's probably gone)?

Kostitsyn-Plekanec-Kovalev
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Old
06-28-2008, 10:36 AM
  #952
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Originally Posted by Prospector View Post
Do you guys think Tanguay can play the point on PP and replace Streit (since he's probably gone)?

Kostitsyn-Plekanec-Kovalev
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Yes he does.

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06-28-2008, 05:44 PM
  #953
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Didn't they? I went looking and noticed that although his counting numbers look similar, Iginla played 12 more games in 07-08 than 06-07. His PPG actually did dip this year, by 0.12 PPG which is a significant amount. It was his best Tanguay-less season since 01-02, but he was still more productive with Tanguay than without.

Looking at this made me curious about the years BEFORE Tanguay showed up. Here's something you should like, given your year-by-year decortication of Tanguay's numbers in your post.

Iggy's season totals before Tanguay shows up... I skipped the first three seasons as Iggy wasn't established yet and his totals were lower than these.
99-00: 63 pts, 0.82 PPG
00-01: 71 pts, 0.92 PPG
01-02: 96 pts, 1.12 PPG
02-03: 67 pts, 0.89 PPG
03-04: 73 pts, 0.90 PPG
05-06: 67 pts, 0.82 PPG
06-07: 94 pts, 1.34 PPG <-- That's the year Tanguay joins him.
07-08: 98 pts, 1.20 PPG <-- Tanguay with the same team, but not on his line.
His stats go up with the post lockout rules and in the two seasons with Tanguay on his team there's little difference with him on the line and without.

Iggy has won two or three Richard trophies with those seasons as well. He doesn't need Tanguay to score and he proved it this year.

He doesn't make much of a difference at all.
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Iginla was a consistent .80-.90 PPG-a-season player before Tanguay showed up, with one impressive career year in 01-02. His total shot up from 67 to 94 points once Tanguay was added to the Flames. More tellingly, his even-strength points shot up from 33 to 60 -- essentially, all the extra points Iginla got were ES points. All that, in 12 games less.

All that in only 70 games... Iggy went up to 1.34 PPG, a difference of over half a point per game compared to the year prior, when Tanguay wasn't on his line.

So... by your own criteria, isn't that evidence that Tanguay DID make a difference doesn't it? To whit: Iginla had a career year playing with Tanguay, recording his best PPG ever by a fair margin. His second-best PPG also came with Tanguay on the same team, though mostly not on the same line.

I'm hoping you will find this convincing, since it's the kind of numbers you've been using.
It would be convincing if he didn't put up the same numbers without Tanguay on his line this year. But that didn't happen. They were separated and Iggy stayed on course whereas Tanguay crashed and burned.

And keep in mind in those low scoring seasons... every player in the league was scoring less. Those stats don't look great but he was nominated twice for the Hart with those years.
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
You seem to be questioning the value of Tanguay's 50-point season as a 19-year old rookie, Forsberg or no Forsberg. Was he on the first line of a Cup contender as a junior-aged rookie, really? And even if he were, it'd still be worth bragging about.

(Skip the others, since I don't have enough information including whether Tanguay even played on Forsberg's line).
I'm not devaluing anything. I'm showing you the difference between him playing with Forsberg and without him.
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And did Tanguay actually play on Sakic's line? That was the season Selanne and Kariya were in Colorado.
Yes.

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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
He was in Colorado in '05-06 actually, that's the season he played with Laperriere and MacLean, getting well over 1 PPG. Not too shabby, I'd say


I think we've amply and clearly shown that the difference was mostly in PP opportunity. He was forced to be a penalty killer because the Flames' other PKers sucked, and his PP time suffered.
So on the one hand he produces great on even strength, on the other you're blaming his lack of PP time.

Maybe he gets more even strength goals because he's no the ice more at even strength because they want to use other guys on the PP.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
He basically was saddled with two poor linemates at even-strength, asked to be a checker, and nonetheless carried that line and kept pace with the Flames leaders at even strength even if he wasn't up to his usual, very lofty standards. No matter how loathe you are to admit it, he basically *was* the Flames' second line.
I'm not loathe to admit anything.

You're arguing that he's now our most talented player and its BS. He isn't good enough to carry a team the way real superstars can.
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
You'll of course no doubt dismiss those facts by claiming I'm apologizing for him. Personally, I think we need more forwards who need to apologize for a "disappointing" 40 ES point season. To put things into perspective, that's 1 less than Plekanec and 5 more than Kovalev.
I think he's a good player in the regular season who chokes under the pressure of the playoffs. He's also not the sniper we needed. He's a good complimentary player but he's not going to make Kovalev a 50 goal scorer. Kovy's points will probably be around the same with or without Tanguay on his line. He might bump it up a little but that's all.
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Not bad for a guy playing with third-liners in a checking role, wouldn't you say? And yet by his standards, that wasn't a good season.
Again though, on the one hand you're saying he's a star.. on the other you blame his linemates. Stars don't need linemates to put up great numbers.
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Hopefully I have something you will like in my little Iginla blurb above. To be honest, I myself was shocked when I saw those numbers. I didn't think getting Tanguay on his line made such a difference to Iggy so I'd previously accepted your comments at face value.

Then again, the more I read about Tanguay the more I like him.
Iggy's numbers don't change dude. And they won't change much next year either provided he's healthy.


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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Then stop dismissing those as somehow unimportant. Those numbers are not good, they are extraordinary. They are what make him such a good player, and such a great fit on the Habs who are a team that has been average at even strength. Adding Tanguay is a shot in the arm for the team's biggest area of weakness -- even strength scoring.
Our biggest area of weakness is a superstar sniper. A guy who can carry a team. Other clubs have those players, we don't. When we go into Pittsburgh (and the road to the cup will be through Pittsburgh) they have guys like Crosby and Malkin. We need somebody to put us over the top and Tanguay is a complimentary player who goes away when the going gets tough.

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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
He made that line not completely suck, and was actually productive in spite of it. He carried them as much as it was possible to carry them.

He got traded because he was unhappy to be forced to be the Flames' top checker and penalty killer. The Flames were so thin at forward that they had nobody else to do it, and if they didn't use either Tanguay or Iginla on a line, that line would get torched by the opposition.
Strange that Iggy still managed to put up great points...

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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Between his trade request and the fact that the Flames were hard-pressed against the cap with an underperforming roster, they dealt him and got Camalleri to shore up the huge hole this left on their depth chart at LW -- though Cammy is a different kind of player, much more of a PP specialist. This freed up some money they'll use to try to get second-line forwards that don't need to be carried. That still made the Flames a worse team in the short term, though.
I agree with the Flames fan who posted here earlier. They're better off with Cam. He also echoed completely what I had argued. Tanguay's a good playmaker who compliments other guys but he can't carry the offense and he goes away when the chips are down.
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
To steal a phrase from the Five Hole Fanatics blog, Tanguay got traded because he was crowded out by suck.
Without Iggy he just plain sucked.

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Old
06-28-2008, 09:44 PM
  #954
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Has there been an announcement or anything of a press conference introducing Tanguay as a Hab?

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06-28-2008, 09:52 PM
  #955
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayne View Post
Has there been an announcement or anything of a press conference introducing Tanguay as a Hab?
They are going to do Sundin and Tanguay together.

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Old
06-28-2008, 10:11 PM
  #956
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post

Without Iggy he just plain sucked.
False.

He didn't suck,under Keenan Tanguay evolved from an all offensive playmaking winger to a sound two-way offensive player with solid defensive awarnessess,despite not constantly producing points,he compensated for it as he rounded his overall game and became more versatile.

Most of the season Tanguay was relegated on the 2nd line with Nolan and Conroy as Keenan opted to put Huselius in his spot with Iginla.He didn't suck or regress by any means.He just didn't produce at a 75-80 pt pace anymore last year,but still registered near 60 pts with over-the-hill and inferior talent.

If he is with a team with young offensive talent flourishing,who better suits his game,do you actually think he'll be a valuable contributor on the team or just a mere complimentary player?Think about it for once,the environnement in Montreal and especially the style of play the Habs have definitely put Tangs in favour to blossom.He'll fit nicely here.Tanguay would provide much more scoring on 5 on 5 and would contribute on every category.

Tanguay is easily one of the most undervalued and underestimated forwards in the league.Your post demonstrates that fact.


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Old
06-28-2008, 10:30 PM
  #957
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Originally Posted by Stephen Locke View Post
False.

He didn't suck,under Keenan Tanguay evolved from an all offensive playmaking winger to a sound two-way offensive player with solid defensive awarnessess,despite not constantly producing points,he compensated for it as he rounded his overall game and became more versatile.

Most of the season Tanguay was relegated on the 2nd line with Nolan and Conroy as Keenan opted to put Huselius in his spot with Iginla.He didn't suck or regress by any means.He just didn't produce at a 75-80 pt pace anymore this year,but still registered near 60 pts with over-the-hill and inferior talent.

If he is with a team with young offensive talent flourishing,who better suits his game,do you actually think he'll be a valuable contributor on the team or just a mere complimentary player?Think about it for once,the environnement in Montreal and especially the style of play the Habs have definitely put Tangs in favour to blossom.He'll fit nicely here.Tanguay would provide much more scoring on 5 on 5 and would contribute on every category.

Tanguay is easily one of the most undervalued and underestimated forwards in the league.Your post demonstrates that fact.
good post.

Baltar

Im glad gainey traded for tanguay and is now hopefully going to land Sundin. This would not have been possible if we would have signed briere last summer. Briere is not the top center i was hoping for long term. Sundin short term is great with Tanguay too...

Gainey is going to go balls out for Sundin, i expect bob to tell sundin whatever it takes whatever you want it's yours just sign the contract please and thank you. Man I can't wait till the season starts.


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Old
06-28-2008, 10:53 PM
  #958
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
His stats go up with the post lockout rules and in the two seasons with Tanguay on his team there's little difference with him on the line and without.
The way this thread has been going, I guess I shouldn't be surprised I have to point out that the lockout was 03-04. Iggy had one more season with his typical 0.85 PPG after the lockout, before Tanguay joined and his production shot up by half a point per game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
It would be convincing if he didn't put up the same numbers without Tanguay on his line this year. But that didn't happen.
But it did. 0.12 PPG is not a little difference. It's the difference between an 98 point season and a 108-point season.

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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I'm not devaluing anything. I'm showing you the difference between him playing with Forsberg and without him.
Well, since you're so dismissive of the much larger difference in Iggy's stats with and without Tanguay, you'll forgive me if I do the same for the season Tanguay was on Forsberg's team, especially since we don't know if Tanguay was actually on the same line.

Surely we wouldn't want to apply a double standard, hmm?

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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
So on the one hand he produces great on even strength, on the other you're blaming his lack of PP time.

Maybe he gets more even strength goals because he's no the ice more at even strength because they want to use other guys on the PP.
No... his ES time was mostly constant. Tanguay's PP time went down not so much due to lack of ability but because they used him more on the PK. Good for the Flames PK (he made it not suck), not so good for Tanguay (though I bet his defensive game improved even more).

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You're arguing that he's now our most talented player and its BS. He isn't good enough to carry a team the way real superstars can.
I hate to break this to you, but Montreal doesn't have that kind of player. What they do have is a large number of excellent forwards, spearheaded by a couple of elite guys, which has proven to be just as effective.

Tanguay may or may not be better than Kovalev, but that's about it. Some of the Habs' kids, AKost and Plekanec in particular, may surpass him, even as early as next year (I would like that and they're really not that far), but right now, Tanguay is at least the second-best forward on the team.

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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
He's also not the sniper we needed.
We've been over this. You think we need a sniper, I think we need an even-strength producer. Since Montreal led the league in goals scored but was barely above average at even-strength, I'll stick to my theory.

This isn't to say a sniper wouldn't help, but the even-strength scorer was the more urgent need.

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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Kovy's points will probably be around the same with or without Tanguay on his line. He might bump it up a little but that's all.
Actually I think Tanguay will end up lifting a second line into a first-line quality unit. I could definitely see him making an impact on the goal-scoring of an Higgins or Latendresse.

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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Again though, on the one hand you're saying he's a star.. on the other you blame his linemates. Stars don't need linemates to put up great numbers.
Tanguay had an off-season, but his numbers were very good... if you care to look at them more than a superficial look at counting numbers.

Goals-Assists-Points is all well and good, but they're very coarse and a deeper look is always much more informative.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Iggy's numbers don't change dude. And they won't change much next year either provided he's healthy.
Look at my previous post. Iggy's numbers year-to-year are listed in it, and they do change. In fact the biggest change is between the year before Tanguay was a Flame and the year Tanguay was on Iggy's line. Funny that.

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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I agree with the Flames fan who posted here earlier. They're better off with Cam.
Cam is not as good a player as Tanguay, plain and simple. He's also very much a power play specialist. Tanguay actually scores more more goals than Cammy at even-strength. That's not counting that Tanguay puts up his superior numbers in tough minutes, whereas Cammy has been facing much weaker opposition.

Knowing this I think it's pretty obvious the Habs wouldn't be better off with Camalleri. Tanguay is the superior player at even strength, including goal-scoring; and the Habs don't particularly need the boost to their PP that a PP scorer like Camalleri would provide.

The Flames' power play is not quite as good so Cam may make a difference there, but Calgary will nonetheless not be better off with him unless they also find a forward capable of preventing their second line from getting destroyed by the opposition, which was what Tanguay did last year. If they don't replace that role then they are a worse team.

I don't take credit for this analysis, it's on the mc79hockey blog, by a guy who's much more familiar with the Flames than I am. He nicely explains why Calgary is a worse team by swapping Cammy for Tanguay, at least in the short term. Go have a look, he goes in pretty good depth.

http://www.mc79hockey.com/?p=2911

Battle of Alberta and Five Hole Fanatic, two Flames blogs, also go on at some length as to the effect of losing Tanguay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Without Iggy he just plain sucked.
He didn't, but I've explained this several times and others have so I feel it's been amply demonstrated now.


Last edited by MathMan: 06-28-2008 at 10:59 PM.
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Old
06-29-2008, 12:40 AM
  #959
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Has there been an announcement or anything of a press conference introducing Tanguay as a Hab?
No... I really don't know why Gainey doesn't do this type of things. It would be grandly appreciated by the fans...



Well at least now with the wonders doable with a computer we've got ourself a preview.

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06-29-2008, 12:51 AM
  #960
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Originally Posted by HamrlikTheStud View Post
No... I really don't know why Gainey doesn't do this type of things. It would be grandly appreciated by the fans...



Well at least now with the wonders doable with a computer we've got ourself a preview.
Or Gainey is hoping to make a splash in the free pool and would love to have another major acquisition to introduce to the media.

but hey, where would the logic be in that.

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Old
06-29-2008, 01:01 AM
  #961
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Tanguay is amazing in NHL 08. He's on a line with Sundin and Kovalev. It was Tanguay - Sundin - Kostitsyn, but Kosty got hurt. Lame.

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06-29-2008, 01:33 AM
  #962
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Flames Fan here. Tanguay is a complimentary player, not a guy that you rely on. He's somewhat inconsistent (Not as bad as Huselius was but close) and he does not shoot ever.

The running joke with him was if he was selected to a shootout, he would still look pass (On breakaways, he would and totally screw up the play and it happened more than once)

He's going to get 70 pts for you guys and he might help you get to the next level but he's got a bad attitude and does not work hard.

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06-29-2008, 02:01 AM
  #963
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Locke View Post
False.

He didn't suck,under Keenan Tanguay evolved from an all offensive playmaking winger to a sound two-way offensive player with solid defensive awarnessess,despite not constantly producing points,he compensated for it as he rounded his overall game and became more versatile.

Most of the season Tanguay was relegated on the 2nd line with Nolan and Conroy as Keenan opted to put Huselius in his spot with Iginla.He didn't suck or regress by any means.He just didn't produce at a 75-80 pt pace anymore last year,but still registered near 60 pts with over-the-hill and inferior talent.

If he is with a team with young offensive talent flourishing,who better suits his game,do you actually think he'll be a valuable contributor on the team or just a mere complimentary player?Think about it for once,the environnement in Montreal and especially the style of play the Habs have definitely put Tangs in favour to blossom.He'll fit nicely here.Tanguay would provide much more scoring on 5 on 5 and would contribute on every category.

Tanguay is easily one of the most undervalued and underestimated forwards in the league.Your post demonstrates that fact.
False.

Without Iginla or another superstar linemate he just sucks.

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Old
06-29-2008, 11:58 PM
  #964
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Locke View Post
False.

He didn't suck,under Keenan Tanguay evolved from an all offensive playmaking winger to a sound two-way offensive player with solid defensive awarnessess,despite not constantly producing points,he compensated for it as he rounded his overall game and became more versatile.

Most of the season Tanguay was relegated on the 2nd line with Nolan and Conroy as Keenan opted to put Huselius in his spot with Iginla.He didn't suck or regress by any means.He just didn't produce at a 75-80 pt pace anymore last year,but still registered near 60 pts with over-the-hill and inferior talent.

If he is with a team with young offensive talent flourishing,who better suits his game,do you actually think he'll be a valuable contributor on the team or just a mere complimentary player?Think about it for once,the environnement in Montreal and especially the style of play the Habs have definitely put Tangs in favour to blossom.He'll fit nicely here.Tanguay would provide much more scoring on 5 on 5 and would contribute on every category.

Tanguay is easily one of the most undervalued and underestimated forwards in the league.Your post demonstrates that fact.
He's a complimentary player who doesn't show up in the playoffs.

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06-30-2008, 12:17 AM
  #965
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Carbo had Surgery on draft day and Tanguay and his wife just has a baby girl not to long ago.. people need to stop reading to much into nothing.. This is the off season I am sure Carbo and Tanguay will have plenty of time to talk soon enough..

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06-30-2008, 12:23 AM
  #966
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The way this thread has been going, I guess I shouldn't be surprised I have to point out that the lockout was 03-04. Iggy had one more season with his typical 0.85 PPG after the lockout, before Tanguay joined and his production shot up by half a point per game.
Again though, those points were good enough for Hart consideration in the pre-lockout years. He won the Rocket Richard trophy with 41 goals for Pete's sake.

There have been three years post lockout. The first Iggy put up 35 goals. The second and third his points went up. Tanguay was on his line for only one of those seasons. And the Flames in general have gotten better as well, Dionne Phaneuf for example has been huge for them.


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But it did. 0.12 PPG is not a little difference. It's the difference between an 98 point season and a 108-point season.
Its not that big a difference dude. Its not the kind of difference that an elite playmaker adds to a sniper. Yes, he helps and he may help Kovalev somewhat but not a whole lot.

As I said earlier, Kovalev's points may take a bit of a bump but it won't be much. And Tanguay will need Kovalev more than the other way around.

And again, come crunch time Tanguay goes away.
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Well, since you're so dismissive of the much larger difference in Iggy's stats with and without Tanguay, you'll forgive me if I do the same for the season Tanguay was on Forsberg's team, especially since we don't know if Tanguay was actually on the same line.

Surely we wouldn't want to apply a double standard, hmm?
Tanguay can't put up good numbers without a superstar. He's never been able to do it. If he wasn't on the Canadiens you would agree but as soon as he puts on the Sainte Flanelle you've got him as a top ten player in the league.
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No... his ES time was mostly constant. Tanguay's PP time went down not so much due to lack of ability but because they used him more on the PK. Good for the Flames PK (he made it not suck), not so good for Tanguay (though I bet his defensive game improved even more).
Or maybe Tanguay just isn't all that great on the PP. Its not like the Flames are an offensive powerhouse either.


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I hate to break this to you, but Montreal doesn't have that kind of player. What they do have is a large number of excellent forwards, spearheaded by a couple of elite guys, which has proven to be just as effective.
I hate to break this to you, but we don't have ANY elite guys. The closest we have is Kovalev... and he's maybe a point per game player.

And you're completely sidestepping what I said.

We don't have a 100 point or 50 goal threat anywhere on the club. We needed one and still do. Tanguay isn't going to change this.
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Tanguay may or may not be better than Kovalev, but that's about it. Some of the Habs' kids, AKost and Plekanec in particular, may surpass him, even as early as next year (I would like that and they're really not that far), but right now, Tanguay is at least the second-best forward on the team.
He's not close to Kovalev. Yes, Kovalev is inconsistent but he at least has the ability to carry a team. And he actually shows up in the playoffs. Ask 30 GMs who they'd rather have and all 30 will choose Kovalev. He's close to a point per game in the postseason and actually puts the puck in the net himself. Tanguay goes away.
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We've been over this. You think we need a sniper, I think we need an even-strength producer. Since Montreal led the league in goals scored but was barely above average at even-strength, I'll stick to my theory.

This isn't to say a sniper wouldn't help, but the even-strength scorer was the more urgent need.
No, the more urgent need was getting somebody who produces in the playoffs. Preferably a sniper. I couldn't care less if those points come on the PP or even strength and neither should you.

Tanguay doesn't produce at all in the playoffs, he doesn't help us.
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Actually I think Tanguay will end up lifting a second line into a first-line quality unit. I could definitely see him making an impact on the goal-scoring of an Higgins or Latendresse.

Tanguay had an off-season, but his numbers were very good... if you care to look at them more than a superficial look at counting numbers.

Goals-Assists-Points is all well and good, but they're very coarse and a deeper look is always much more informative.
Whatever man... the guy isn't a goal scorer and he never will be. He'll put up 20 something goals... not terrible but not what we needed. If he can help Higgins that's great. Too bad they both play LW.
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Look at my previous post. Iggy's numbers year-to-year are listed in it, and they do change. In fact the biggest change is between the year before Tanguay was a Flame and the year Tanguay was on Iggy's line. Funny that.
They don't change much dude. Again, Iggy was a Rocket Richard winner long before Tanguay shows up. The only difference is the lockout. In three seasons Iggy's numbers are great in two out of the three. One year he's with Tanguay, the other he isn't. And the year after the lockout (his poor season) Phaneuf, Huselius and Tanguay aren't on the team. He's by himself and he still manages 35 goals. Tanguay would be completely lost in the same situation.

You keep throwing the credit Tanguay's way but the logic doesn't play out. If it did, Iggy wouldn't be putting up 50 goals this year. Tanguay makes a marginal difference and that's about it. Then the playoffs come and he goes away. Iggy on the other hand is also a point per game guy in the playoffs. How is it that he produces and Tanguay doesn't?

The Flames are a better team overall. Yes, Tanguay helped somewhat but so did Huselius and the biggest difference maker on that club is the addition of Phaneuf. If it was Tanguay, then Iggy doesn't hit 50 this year.
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Cam is not as good a player as Tanguay, plain and simple. He's also very much a power play specialist. Tanguay actually scores more more goals than Cammy at even-strength. That's not counting that Tanguay puts up his superior numbers in tough minutes, whereas Cammy has been facing much weaker opposition.
If we had gotten Cam you'd be singing a completely different tune. You'd be talking about his potential and how he only had one bad year (and it was injury filled) then you'd go on about his incredible start last year and how he was a point per game guy the year before. You'd also talk about his cheap contract and how he'd be the perfect replacement for Ryder. He's not wearing the red white and blue though so instead you downplay him.

Cam is younger, cheaper and a better goalscorer. He doesn't have enough of a track record in the playoffs to know how he'll do but I'd rather that than having a bad one. Flames fans are pretty happy with this and they should be. They got the better end of the deal.
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
Knowing this I think it's pretty obvious the Habs wouldn't be better off with Camalleri. Tanguay is the superior player at even strength, including goal-scoring; and the Habs don't particularly need the boost to their PP that a PP scorer like Camalleri would provide.
You keep going on about 'even strength'... it doesn't matter dude. We were number one in the regular season. We don't need Tanguay to help us there. We need a guy who gets it done when we need it most and he doesn't do that.

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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
The Flames' power play is not quite as good so Cam may make a difference there, but Calgary will nonetheless not be better off with him unless they also find a forward capable of preventing their second line from getting destroyed by the opposition, which was what Tanguay did last year. If they don't replace that role then they are a worse team.
The jury is out on Cam. But he's young and promising. Tanguay wasn't doing anything for them and they shipped him off. I don't see anything changing. You keep saying he could be better... well, he could also get worse. Even if he stays the same though it doesn't help us. He has a rep for folding under pressure, isn't the sniper we needed and doesn't produce in the playoffs.
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
I don't take credit for this analysis, it's on the mc79hockey blog, by a guy who's much more familiar with the Flames than I am. He nicely explains why Calgary is a worse team by swapping Cammy for Tanguay, at least in the short term. Go have a look, he goes in pretty good depth.

http://www.mc79hockey.com/?p=2911

Battle of Alberta and Five Hole Fanatic, two Flames blogs, also go on at some length as to the effect of losing Tanguay.

He didn't, but I've explained this several times and others have so I feel it's been amply demonstrated now.
The only thing you've amply demonstrated is that you can't look at any Montreal players objectively. The guy is a decent player who may help us in certain areas. But he's not the guy we needed. And he sucks in the playoffs.

Be honest, if he plays with Kovalev do you see him scoring 50 goals this year?


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 06-30-2008 at 12:47 AM.
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06-30-2008, 12:32 AM
  #967
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Flames Fan here. Tanguay is a complimentary player, not a guy that you rely on. He's somewhat inconsistent (Not as bad as Huselius was but close) and he does not shoot ever.

The running joke with him was if he was selected to a shootout, he would still look pass (On breakaways, he would and totally screw up the play and it happened more than once)

He's going to get 70 pts for you guys and he might help you get to the next level but he's got a bad attitude and does not work hard.
Don't know about the last part but I agree with the first. And it seems that pretty much every Flames fan posting here seems to agree with this.

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06-30-2008, 12:55 AM
  #968
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Bienvenue Alex!

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06-30-2008, 01:12 AM
  #969
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Tanguay can't put up good numbers without a superstar.
Good thing he's coming to the Habs then, eh?

Seriously though, you're quite good at making arguments, but you sometimes come off as someone who believes a chocolate chip cookie doesn't taste right if the chocolate chips are in the wrong place, or if there are too many on one side, and not enough on the other. I'm sure I can expect an analysis on how my analogy doesn't quite fit/apply/whatever. And I have seen you side-step as many arguments in this thread as you are accusing the other guy of, for what that's worth.

Let's all keep some perspective here. You can try to bring everyone down to "reality" (or whatever your modus operandi is), or continue to challenge these points (I know you enjoy a good debate), but micro-analyzing a player the way you guys have has exceeded a useful level of debate IMO. I'd be more interested in seeing your thoughts on more focused topics. For example:

1) Do you think our team is better, the same, or worse now that Tanguay has joined the team?
2) Given that we have explored all of his talents and faults at great length, is there ABSOLUTELY NO ONE in or organization that can bring out the best of the (indisputedly, I'd submit) skillset that he brings to the team? On that note, is it really THAT horrible that he performs better with better players rather than being a player who can dominate regardless of the quality of his linemates? I mean, it's not like we'll be scraping the bottom of the barrel (like Calgary) to find players to put with him.
3) Do you see his production rising or falling now that he has joined the team, and how will this affect your assessment of him as a player? What if he jumps back up to 1 PPG somehow this year. Would that be enough to convince you that it was the situation, and not the player?
4) Was there someone available for a similar price that would have better improved the team? Similarly, was there someone available at 25th overall that you think is so great that they'd be so much more valuable in the future that Tanguay is now (I guess that assumes that he is in some way valuable to begin with, but anyway...)? I know you weigh heavily on the importance of drafts and prospects from previous discussions...
5) Do you think he was unhappy with his role in Calgary, or perhaps misused? Could that have adversely affected his production, especially in "crunch time?" Do you think there is reason to believe he will be unhappy with his new role (I use that term with a bit of hesitation, as I don't know exactly what Guy will do with him)?

Aside from these points, everyone is just playing armchair talent scout, and everyone is just arguing who is the better at seeing the "truth." I mean, there has to be some reason that a lot of professional sports writers are considering us one of the winners of the draft, largely based on this move. Blah blah, sheep, blah blah, jump of a bridge if others did, blah blah, it does seem like a consensus. And at 28 he's hardly on the decline.

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06-30-2008, 01:16 AM
  #970
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Don't know about the last part but I agree with the first. And it seems that pretty much every Flames fan posting here seems to agree with this.
I'd be more interested in the opinions of Avs fans. Their team at the time had a concentration of talented forwards more similar to the Habs of today than Calgary has had at any time in Tanguay's years there. And I'm fine with the fact that this could very well support the image of him as a complimentary player.

I forgot one question before: If you don't think there is a combo the Canadiens could ice that would get the best out of Tanguay, who would you go shopping for? Tanguay is here, and we know that. Who does he need?

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06-30-2008, 01:19 AM
  #971
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
We don't have a 100 point or 50 goal threat anywhere on the club. We needed one and still do.
lol, how many players in the entire league are 100 point or 50 goal threats? Maybe 15 total. Most teams don't have a player like this, and many of the ones that do aren't good teams.

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06-30-2008, 01:30 AM
  #972
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lol, how many players in the entire league are 100 point or 50 goal threats? Maybe 15 total. Most teams don't have a player like this, and many of the ones that do aren't good teams.
I'd say 10. So yeah, not only do most teams NOT have one, they certainly don't have a spare one for us to nab. Det, Ott, and Pitts have two each (I almost wanna add TB in there), but not much chance of getting any of them either.

edit: btw, the answer you are going to get in return is "We should trade X + Y + Z to move up in the draft to a position where a player with this kind of potential is still available." I've gotten it from him before.

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06-30-2008, 01:43 AM
  #973
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to those calgary fans chiming in about tanguay's lack of leadership skills, keep in mind that he's only expected to produce point wise like he always has. He's a replacement for the departing michael ryder and you cant tell me that its not an upgrade.

He should thrive under a team that scores a ton of goals like montreal. Its a little different than the way mike keenan used him.

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06-30-2008, 07:23 AM
  #974
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to those calgary fans chiming in about tanguay's lack of leadership skills, keep in mind that he's only expected to produce point wise like he always has. He's a replacement for the departing michael ryder and you cant tell me that its not an upgrade.

He should thrive under a team that scores a ton of goals like montreal. Its a little different than the way mike keenan used him.
Hacks, I can't remember the last time I disagreed with one of your posts. I don't know if that's a good thing or not, but I agree like usual.

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06-30-2008, 07:53 AM
  #975
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False.

Without Iginla or another superstar linemate he just sucks.
He should do just fine here then, considering the horrendous drop-off in skill the Flames have on forwards after Iginla. We probably have one of the best Top 6 forward set's in the NHL, he will be ok here.

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