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Another Jagr thread. Sundin+Jagr is Brooks #1 plan

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Old
06-30-2008, 10:54 AM
  #76
HockeyBasedNYC
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Like where you're headed with this. Although, cap permitting, Id like to see Sather go after another top 6 forward talent...someone like Huselius.

Dawes - Sundin - Jagr
Drury - Gomez - Huselius
Callahan - Dubinsky - Prucha/Sjostrom
Orr/Byers - Betts - Korpikoski

Staal - Roszival
Tyutin - Girardi
Backman - Orpik
I'd rather sign Campbell than go after Huselius, Sundin and Jagr.

And im not thrilled about Campbell.

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Old
06-30-2008, 10:56 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Like where you're headed with this. Although, cap permitting, Id like to see Sather go after another top 6 forward talent...someone like Huselius.

Dawes - Sundin - Jagr
Drury - Gomez - Huselius
Callahan - Dubinsky - Prucha/Sjostrom
Orr/Byers - Betts - Korpikoski

Staal - Roszival
Tyutin - Girardi
Backman - Orpik
30 mil (at least) wrapped up in the first two lines?

You know there is a salary cap right?

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Old
06-30-2008, 11:00 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
30 mil (at least) wrapped up in the first two lines?

You know there is a salary cap right?
30 million wrapped up in the first 2 lines for a year, as opposed to signing Hossa and having that be the case for the next 4+ years.

The money should go to the top 6 forwards anyway. Over the past 3 seasons, Renney has proven that he can get the most out of an average defense corp at best (with Lundqvist's help of course).

I want no part of Campbell, especially considering what he will receive on the open market. He is a talented winger playing defense.

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Old
06-30-2008, 11:11 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
30 million wrapped up in the first 2 lines for a year, as opposed to signing Hossa and having that be the case for the next 4+ years.

The money should go to the top 6 forwards anyway. Over the past 3 seasons, Renney has proven that he can get the most out of an average defense corp at best (with Lundqvist's help of course).

I want no part of Campbell, especially considering what he will receive on the open market. He is a talented winger playing defense.
Why should the money go to one-way forwards when we're a defensive minded team? Not to mention that lineup -- even with conservative salary estimates of 6 for each of Jagr and Sundin, 4 for each of Huselius, Rozy and Orpik, and bagging Prucha all together -- still puts you at about 59 million.

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Old
06-30-2008, 11:19 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
Why should the money go to one-way forwards when we're a defensive minded team? Not to mention that lineup -- even with conservative salary estimates of 6 for each of Jagr and Sundin, 4 for each of Huselius, Rozy and Orpik, and bagging Prucha all together -- still puts you at about 59 million.
So what would you prefer? Sign Pandolfo and call it a day because we are a "defensive minded" team?

I cant even count the amount of times I read this board last year, only to have people *****ing and moaning that the team couldn't score.

Entrusting top 6 forward spots to players that have never produced at that type of level in the NHL is a recipe for disaster....and thats where this team is headed if it doesnt take the Sundin/Jagr possibility by the horns right now.

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Old
06-30-2008, 11:26 AM
  #81
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i dont see why people are getting so upset with the idea of bringing in sundin to play with jags. give prucha another chance to play with jags and a #1 center and he should produce again. drury goes to wing with gomez and dawes, dubi center cally & korpo, & then betts centers a comboof orr/sjo/jess/moore. bring back rossy with a slight raise and sign a guy like melichar. sundin and jags together might be something special.

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Old
06-30-2008, 11:43 AM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
Why should the money go to one-way forwards when we're a defensive minded team? Not to mention that lineup -- even with conservative salary estimates of 6 for each of Jagr and Sundin, 4 for each of Huselius, Rozy and Orpik, and bagging Prucha all together -- still puts you at about 59 million.
we are a defensive minded team b/c our forwards aren't that great offensively... Gomez and Jagr are the only forwards that can really be considered great... Drury is slightly above avg... and the rest are young players trying to find there way.

i can almost guarantee you that if Jagr and Sundin are together on a line, and Drury and Gomez are together on another line we will become a more offensive minded team.

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Old
06-30-2008, 12:03 PM
  #83
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Do we really want to have the oldest first line in all of hockey?

Signing Sundin would be a very temporary offensive boost but does nothing for the future.

If Sather wants to bring in a big-name, big-results forward then it should be a young guy who's going to be here for a while. If we sign Sundin and Jagr it's just two old guys clogging up the roster, holding back our young guys from getting decent playtime and experience. If you're gonna clog up the roster and keep the kids waiting for their shot to play, it should at least be with players who are going to be here in a few years so they can build chemistry.

Signing Sundin and Jagr is not a way to win a cup, it's a way to get bad positioning in the draft while keeping young guys out of the lineup. And in a year or two when they're both gone we'll ask ourselves "What was the point?" We could have been making progress developing a post-jagr era team.
I defenitly agrees, but there are no guys like that on the market. And we don't got the young established players that can fetch us a big star through a trade.

Getting Sundin while resigning Jagr gives us 2 years to bring in guys like Cherepanov up front; while maybe someone like Koprikoski/Anisimov takes another step, and plays guys like Sangunetti, Sauer and Del Zotto onto the team.

In my opinion its allot easier to bring kids into good teams. Just look at Detroit, NJ and Colorado. The best teams have also had the most success at developing their prospects.

Sooner or later there will be a player like Rich Nash, Ilya Kovalchuk among others who hits the market, and if we then are a established team in the upper ranks we will be able to get one of them to NY.

If we signs Marian Hossa now, we have put allot of our "eggs" in one basket for the comming 7-8 years -- and I don't think Marian Hossa is the right guy. If we sign Sundin and resign Jagr for 2 years we does nothing for the future. With Marian Hossa/Roloston we could hurt the future.

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06-30-2008, 12:03 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
So what would you prefer? Sign Pandolfo and call it a day because we are a "defensive minded" team?

I cant even count the amount of times I read this board last year, only to have people *****ing and moaning that the team couldn't score.

Entrusting top 6 forward spots to players that have never produced at that type of level in the NHL is a recipe for disaster....and thats where this team is headed if it doesnt take the Sundin/Jagr possibility by the horns right now.
I'm saying bringing in forwards who are thinking "offense first" is a recipe for disaster if it means skimping on defense. This team plays defense first whether you like it or not, and if you start diverting resources for forwards who DON'T play defense like Sundin and Jagr then you run a risk of hanging your defense full of budget cutting players out to dry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rags225 View Post
we are a defensive minded team b/c our forwards aren't that great offensively... Gomez and Jagr are the only forwards that can really be considered great... Drury is slightly above avg... and the rest are young players trying to find there way.

i can almost guarantee you that if Jagr and Sundin are together on a line, and Drury and Gomez are together on another line we will become a more offensive minded team.
So we brought in two centers last year that are known for their two-way game, but we're not going to be a defensive team down the line?

Point being, you can't become a more 'offensively minded' team if your defense can't pick up the slack.

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06-30-2008, 12:08 PM
  #85
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Rozsival has gotten surgery this off-season and is not as good as Liles, and Liles only got 4 mil per.
Yeah but Liles didn't hit the open market.

There is 30 teams in this league, of the best UFA's allot of them won't even consider Phoneix, Edmonton and such teams -- if Roz goes after the biggest offer someone will offer him close to 6m, that I am pretty sure of.

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Old
06-30-2008, 12:09 PM
  #86
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I think Rags' point is...

that last season's team had to be more defensively minded because it lacked offensive talent. With more offensive talent, the focus can switch a bit to have a better balance between goals scores and goals against. PITT figured out a way to channel all that offensive talent into a Stanley Cup run, why not the Rangers (if it did have the talent - and I'm not suggesting adding Sundin will - just commenting on the concept).

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Old
06-30-2008, 12:11 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
I'm saying bringing in forwards who are thinking "offense first" is a recipe for disaster if it means skimping on defense. This team plays defense first whether you like it or not, and if you start diverting resources for forwards who DON'T play defense like Sundin and Jagr then you run a risk of hanging your defense full of budget cutting players out to dry.

So we brought in two centers last year that are known for their two-way game, but we're not going to be a defensive team down the line?

Point being, you can't become a more 'offensively minded' team if your defense can't pick up the slack.
Sundin is defenitly above both Drury and Gomez defensivly.

Neither of Drury and Gomez are that good defenisvly really. Drury got problems in the defensive zone against big forwards and Gomez is just OK defensivly.

Sundin is a very strong defensive center.

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Old
06-30-2008, 12:16 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
that last season's team had to be more defensively minded because it lacked offensive talent. With more offensive talent, the focus can switch a bit to have a better balance between goals scores and goals against. PITT figured out a way to channel all that offensive talent into a Stanley Cup run, why not the Rangers (if it did have the talent - and I'm not suggesting adding Sundin will - just commenting on the concept).
We just weren't defensive minded last season.

We scored few goals, but the biggest factor in that is the fact that we were in so many close games, we scored few goals and let in few goals.

If one team takes a 3-1 lead after 30 minutes that game often ends with something like 4-2, 5-2; but if a game is 2-1, 1-1, 1-0 after 30 minutes the game often ends with 3-2 in SO or something.

We played a pretty offensive game and often put allot of shots on net.

The talk about NYR beeing defensive minded is just BS IMHO. A defensive minded team IMO plays defensive first, and trys to create offense from their defensive game -- like on fast breaks et c. There are plenty of teams like that in this league, and we defenitly wheren't one of them.

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06-30-2008, 12:16 PM
  #89
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I'd rather steer clear of the Sundin + Jagr route to be honest.

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Old
06-30-2008, 12:31 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Like where you're headed with this. Although, cap permitting, Id like to see Sather go after another top 6 forward talent...someone like Huselius.

Dawes - Sundin - Jagr
Drury - Gomez - Huselius
Callahan - Dubinsky - Prucha/Sjostrom
Orr/Byers - Betts - Korpikoski

Staal - Roszival
Tyutin - Girardi
Backman - Orpik
I like this lineup more than any other lines I've seen so far. I would be thrilled if we got Sundin, Huselius, and Orpik. Huselius is so underrated and could probably even fit in better with Sundin and Jagr. Biggest problem is lack of offense from the defense, but with that offense I don't think it would be a problem if our d-men just played steady defense.

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06-30-2008, 12:38 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
that last season's team had to be more defensively minded because it lacked offensive talent. With more offensive talent, the focus can switch a bit to have a better balance between goals scores and goals against. PITT figured out a way to channel all that offensive talent into a Stanley Cup run, why not the Rangers (if it did have the talent - and I'm not suggesting adding Sundin will - just commenting on the concept).
exactly what i meant.

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06-30-2008, 02:26 PM
  #92
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It's all going to come down to cost and years.

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06-30-2008, 02:35 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Edge View Post
It's all going to come down to cost and years.
Now there is a bold statement lol.

Just breakin ur chops Edge.

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Old
06-30-2008, 02:39 PM
  #94
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Now there is a bold statement lol.

Just breakin ur chops Edge.
I'll also go out on a limb and say the Rangers will either sign him or they won't.

The cost is what scares me. I can't see Sundin or Jagr giving some kind of great discount together to win a cup which means I see a lot of cap space being eaten by signing both of them. Additionally, I still see a team that lacks a PP or tough defenseman and is a very big mystery with it's bottom line scoring.

I just see a lot of money going into a plan that I really don't think puts us in the same ballpark as the top teams/cup contenders.

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06-30-2008, 02:54 PM
  #95
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the one thing however about the Rangers defense is that is where most of their best young talent is--we have 3 young regulars in Tyutin, Girardi and Staal--who are not costing us a bundle--Potter who is at least close to ready--too bad about Baranka--I would be saying the same about him and young studs Sanguinetti and Del Zotto who no doubt need more development. I'm not saying it will happen but it wouldn't shock me if Girardi continues to improve his offensive game more or less replacing Roszival as main pwp man. Staal is also likely to put up better numbers in his second season. Ideally though we need at least one fairly talented vet defenseman.

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06-30-2008, 02:58 PM
  #96
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Yea that would be a good start for july 1st

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Old
06-30-2008, 03:10 PM
  #97
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So.. here's an interesting little tidbit from the CBA and Bob McKenzie... link on tsn.

Quote:
Because there is a clause in the CBA that says in the final year of the contract - this one coming up - there is no provision permitted for the Performance Bonus Cushion.

And what exactly does that mean and why should we care?

Basically, the performance bonus "cushion" allows teams to exceed the salary cap number if it's on earned performance bonuses and defer it against the next year's salary cap. Now, this season, that cannot happen.

Quote:
Well, suppose a team like the New York Rangers wants to sign a 35 and older free agent such as Jaromir Jagr and/or Mats Sundin. Based on the prior years of this CBA, the Rangers would look at the $56.7 million cap and there would be a potential overage for bonuses of $4.22 million. They could then sign Jagr and/or Sundin to base salaries of $5 million plus performance bonuses of $2 million each. The $7 million total income for each player would count against the cap, but the Rangers would know they could overspend the cap by $4 million (in performance bonuses) and defer those charges to the next year.

Not any more.
So.. now what?

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06-30-2008, 03:13 PM
  #98
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To add, Edge...

I don't see either signing for only one year. Sundin has one more contract left and he's off to the sunset. This is likely it for him. Same goes for Jagr. I don't think either want to hit free agency again or move again. Further, I don't think any will be particularly cheap, although both may come with some benign bonuses, but that just means the team signing them may be borrowing from tomorrow's cap space.

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06-30-2008, 03:13 PM
  #99
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My guess is that's the hang up with Jags. He and his agent are saying "wait, we can't do the bonus deferral this year, so give us a three year deal at $5MM per." or something to that effect.

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06-30-2008, 03:14 PM
  #100
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So.. here's an interesting little tidbit from the CBA and Bob McKenzie... link on tsn.






So.. now what?
Awesome.

Makes it even more unlikely theyll sign.

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