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A Friendly, pre-July 1st Reminder: UFA's DON'T equal Cups

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Old
06-30-2008, 08:12 PM
  #26
Whitesnake
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I know it's not common on these boards but there are actually a big gap between being disappointed to not see any movement and want Gainey fired because of it.

I still think we're a couple of guys away from being a real contender. We still don't have a solid top 4 d-man, we still need 1 top 6 forward and still don't have a real shutdown line.

Having said that, I'm not expecting anything, so I won't be dissapointed.

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06-30-2008, 08:41 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
I know it's not common on these boards but there are actually a big gap between being disappointed to not see any movement and want Gainey fired because of it.

I still think we're a couple of guys away from being a real contender. We still don't have a solid top 4 d-man, we still need 1 top 6 forward and still don't have a real shutdown line.

Having said that, I'm not expecting anything, so I won't be dissapointed.
All this can come true.

I expect LAtendresse to be paired up with Koivu and Tanguay, if he works hard this summer on his skating, he'll be a great addition to the top6 Players.

Having him up there will also make our 3rd line great.
Higgins-Chipper-SKost are all capable of playing well defensively with great offensive upside.

This would make 3 good top lines, with a decent 4th ''energy'' line of Lapierre-Begin-Kosto (Dandy)

O'Byrne will be our #4 D and a good one at that as well. Still has some learning to do, but with his size, along side Hamrlik, he'll be good.

Just like before last season, don't underestimate our youngsters. We have very capable players and all the requirements needed according to you can come from within.

That's why adding a guy like Sundin or other big UFA, would just higher our depth.

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06-30-2008, 09:02 PM
  #28
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good point op. I for one expect nothing and will be happy with the status quo.

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Old
06-30-2008, 09:10 PM
  #29
Blind Gardien
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The only surefire way to win a Cup is to have the best team. One of the ways to try to make your team the best is to get better players. One of the ways to try to get better players is by signing UFAs.

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06-30-2008, 09:21 PM
  #30
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Niedermayer doesn't count because of a 'team effort'? Are you nuts? Do you think it's just a coincidence that they won the cup after signing one of the best defencemen in the league?

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06-30-2008, 09:26 PM
  #31
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Don't get me wrong here... I'm not saying adding Sundin or Hossa wouldn't help the team a great deal and might push the team "over the top".

My point is that big name UFA signings often do little in determining/affecting the eventual Stanley Cup champions.

It's no co-incidence that Detroit and New Jersey have been the most sucessful franchises of the last 15 years and big spending teams who try and patch their teams via the UFA route (New York, Toronto) have been largely unsucessful.

I guess my point is that we want to be Detroit (look for the right fits to compliment our core players) and not a New York or Toronto (try and buy the biggest and best name regardless of how he fits within the roster).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blades 0f Steel View Post
Niedermayer doesn't count because of a 'team effort'? Are you nuts? Do you think it's just a coincidence that they won the cup after signing one of the best defencemen in the league?
Niedermayer was signed the season before their Cup, so even he didn't pay immediate dividends.

Anaheim won because the whole team played a punishing physical style and wore down all their apponents. Everyone had a role and everyone was committed to the same game-plan (i.e - the right mix of players). Nieds played a huge role (won the Conn Smythe, I believe), but it was the team effort that ultimately won them the cup.


Last edited by Beakermania*: 06-30-2008 at 09:42 PM.
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Old
06-30-2008, 09:34 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Mackattack View Post
Don't get me wrong here... I'm not saying adding Sundin or Hossa wouldn't help the team a great deal and might push the team "over the top".

My point is that big name UFA signings often do little in determining/affecting the eventual Stanley Cup champions.

It's no co-incidence that Detroit and New Jersey have been the most sucessful franchises of the last 15 years and big spending teams who try and patch their teams via the UFA route (New York, Toronto) have been largely unsucessful.

I guess my point is that we want to be Detroit (look for the right fits to compliment our core players) and not a New York or Toronto (try and buy the biggest and best name regardless of how he fits within the roster).
The reason for that is because the desperate teams throw out huge contracts to players that don't necessarily fit their needs, and I suspect the money becomes an issue for other players in the dressing room. Too many ego's and no chemistry doesn't work, the Rangers proved that in the 90's, and even Team Canada proved that not too long ago.

Sundin is worth every million, and doesn't hurt us in terms of contract length. On top of that, he brings us exactly what we need on this team.

Sundin=that much closer to a Cup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mackattack View Post
Niedermayer was signed the season before their Cup, so even he didn't pay immediate dividends.

Anaheim won because the whole team played a punishing physical style and wore down all their apponents. Everyone had a role and everyone was committed to the same game-plan (i.e - the right mix of players). Nieds played a huge role (won the Conn Smythe, I believe), but it was the team effort that ultimately won them the cup.
You're not making a very good argument here. Anaheim is the exception, not the rule.

Niedermayer was a perfect fit for Anaheim, just as Sundin is a perfect fit for the Habs.


Last edited by Blades 0f Steel: 06-30-2008 at 09:56 PM.
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06-30-2008, 10:04 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Mackattack View Post
Don't get me wrong here... I'm not saying adding Sundin or Hossa wouldn't help the team a great deal and might push the team "over the top".

My point is that big name UFA signings often do little in determining/affecting the eventual Stanley Cup champions.

It's no co-incidence that Detroit and New Jersey have been the most sucessful franchises of the last 15 years and big spending teams who try and patch their teams via the UFA route (New York, Toronto) have been largely unsucessful.

I guess my point is that we want to be Detroit (look for the right fits to compliment our core players) and not a New York or Toronto (try and buy the biggest and best name regardless of how he fits within the roster).
I would not dissagree neither agree with this. I treat dead line acquisition the same way as UFA in the sense they are new players from outside. Now on that point you have to look at the teams that had some success in the playoff last year... The Pens who added Hossa, Detroit added Stuart...I would say it was successfull for them...

For the UFAs, I would think that teams that have added core pieces of the team (not complements) have had problems in general... The NYR took pretty much half of the season to recover from the addition of Gomez and Drury. The FLyers took pretty much all season to recover from the addition Briere, Smith and company...

Point is if you had UFAs or core guys don't count on them to be the goto guys during the season... but when come post season and there used to play with your team, you might get your moneys worth...

This is what a Hossa, Sundin, Roslton would be for us... we could do without them and have a very good team, adding them justs puts us to another level and gives us the depth required to go far in the playoff.

Just my 2 cents...

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Old
06-30-2008, 10:24 PM
  #34
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Would the Habs be able to add a Pronger, a Sellane and a Neidermeyer any other way?

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06-30-2008, 10:26 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Blades 0f Steel View Post
Sundin is a perfect fit for the Habs.
That's why it's to good to be true, I'd love to see it, but I don't see much happening this summer.

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Old
06-30-2008, 10:31 PM
  #36
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What he means is: yes, sundin would help us to get closer to the mug. But would ANY other UFA help, only because we NEED to sign at least one? Don't think so. For me, it's practically Sundin or bust. If we don't get a solid 3rd line center, then Bob will have to get one via a trade.

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06-30-2008, 10:32 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mackattack View Post
July 1st is tommorow and naturally we're all excited. But I think people who are getting worked up to the point of ilness need to realize something: UFA's don't win Stanley Cups.

Take a look at the last 5 cup winners: Detroit, Anaheim, Carolina, Tampa Bay, and New Jersey. In the cases of all of these teams, UFA signings had little to no effect on the teams success (even Niedermyer in Anaheim- the Ducks win was the definition of a "team effort"). These teams succeeded because of solid foundations and having the right combinations of players, not necesisarily the best.

Would adding Sundin/Hossa/Jagr be exciting? Heck yes.
Are they the difference to winning a Stanley Cup? Probably not.

So before we enter the free agent frenzy, keep in mind that if this team is going anywhere, it's going to be on the backs of our core players - Markov, Higgins, Komisarek, Price, ect. - not a big name UFA acquisition.

So if in a few days the Habs come up empty handed and your on suicide watch... remember this thread. DON'T JUMP!
Maybe not, but the right UFA can make your team a lot better. Just ask the Flyers how things worked out for them

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Old
06-30-2008, 10:44 PM
  #38
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Fans who dogmatically say that free agents don't matter = fans who watch other teams celebrate. Sometimes they can make a big difference.

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06-30-2008, 10:50 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deandebean View Post
What he means is: yes, sundin would help us to get closer to the mug. But would ANY other UFA help, only because we NEED to sign at least one? Don't think so. For me, it's practically Sundin or bust. If we don't get a solid 3rd line center, then Bob will have to get one via a trade.
That's not what he said at all.

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Would adding Sundin/Hossa/Jagr be exciting? Heck yes.
Are they the difference to winning a Stanley Cup? Probably not.

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Old
06-30-2008, 10:50 PM
  #40
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That's not what he said at all.
Ok then. It's what I mean. There. Semantics.

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06-30-2008, 10:51 PM
  #41
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Maybe not, but the right UFA can make your team a lot better. Just ask the Flyers how things worked out for them
Come on, if it weren't for our goalie crapping it out, the Habs would have creamed them.

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06-30-2008, 10:52 PM
  #42
Blades 0f Steel
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Ok then. It's what I mean. There. Semantics.
How are the two quoted statements semantics? They contradict one another.

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Old
06-30-2008, 10:54 PM
  #43
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just to add to the OP ... outside of Hamrlik (who isn't the ufa signing of the century ) what UFA's have we signed thus far that has caused us to increase our status as borderline playoff team pre lock-out to our current position of conference winners and arguable cup contendor's ???

Nearly all our improvements have been as a result of solid drafting and good trades.(Kovalev for balej and a second comes to mind )This team will only continue to improve as it has for the last few years as a result of improvements from the already existing crop of drafted youngsters.

It's obvious the addition for a short time of someone like Sundin will improve the top end talent of the club but knowing that basically all our improvements have come from within so far there is no reason to believe that continued philosophy won't pay off in the same way.

Does the addition of Sundin on our top line mean other players like Kosty or Higgs or whoever see reductions in Ice time and Production only to feel the wrath of the fans and end up disheartened and gone ??
Adding a player or two to the first or second line increases the team's depth and improves its chances of winning. Did the 3rd liners on the Red Wings incur the wrath of the fans because they didn't score lke Zetterberg and Datsyuk? Did they enjoy the Cup win less?

As for Kovalev, yes, he was acquired in a trade. BUT THEN HE BECAME A UFA! Anyone could have signed him.

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06-30-2008, 10:56 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Blades 0f Steel View Post
How are the two quoted statements semantics? They contradict one another.
I thought, and don't think I was that off, that he meant that signing a guy just for signing one is not productive. This UFA frenzy is sometimes misleading.

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06-30-2008, 10:57 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
Adding a player or two to the first or second line increases the team's depth and improves its chances of winning. Did the 3rd liners on the Red Wings incur the wrath of the fans because they didn't score lke Zetterberg and Datsyuk? Did they enjoy the Cup win less?
Yes, but does it mean you have to sign one at all costs?

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06-30-2008, 11:02 PM
  #46
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Fans who dogmatically say that free agents don't matter = fans who watch other teams celebrate. Sometimes they can make a big difference.
Amen, brother.

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Old
06-30-2008, 11:22 PM
  #47
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Since Bob has been with Montreal, he has signed some practically every season. Not always judicial choices, though. I suspect he won't change habits this year...

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06-30-2008, 11:29 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by deandebean View Post
What he means is: yes, sundin would help us to get closer to the mug. But would ANY other UFA help, only because we NEED to sign at least one? Don't think so. For me, it's practically Sundin or bust. If we don't get a solid 3rd line center, then Bob will have to get one via a trade.
The only exception I see is Brian Rolston. I think he fits very well, if we don't sign Sundin. Can take Streit place on PP, very good on PK and a defensive specialist who can score 30 goals from all forward position. Not a bad 3rd line with Higgins and S.Kost to play against best lines. And our 2 first become Akost-Pleky-Kovy and Tanguay-Koivu-Tender. Not bad too.

After Rolston, I don't really love the forwards for this summer and don't want Hossa at 10M$. Maybe a guy like Roszival can help, but Gainey stated at the draft he don't want any d-man. So, I don't think it will happen. I'm happy with Tanguay if we don't sign anybody else and I hope Bob wait for Sundin if he thinks he has a chance.

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Old
06-30-2008, 11:30 PM
  #49
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Come on, if it weren't for our goalie crapping it out, the Habs would have creamed them.
Come on yourself. They were one of the worst teams in the league. They made the Conference Final. And if a goalie made the difference it was their's.

They are practically the poster child for combining drafts and free agents to get ahead in today's NHL

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Old
06-30-2008, 11:32 PM
  #50
deandebean
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The only exception I see is Brian Rolston. I think he fits very well, if we don't sign Sundin. Can take Streit place on PP, very good on PK and a defensive specialist who can score 30 goals from all forward position. Not a bad 3rd line with Higgins and S.Kost to play against best lines. And our 2 first become Akost-Pleky-Kovy and Tanguay-Koivu-Tender. Not bad too.

After Rolston, I don't really love the forwards for this summer and don't want Hossa at 10M$. Maybe a guy like Roszival can help, but Gainey stated at the draft he don't want any d-man. So, I don't think it will happen. I'm happy with Tanguay if we don't sign anybody else and I hope Bob wait for Sundin if he thinks he has a chance.
Yes, I agree about Rolston. He'd be another solid choice. I just wonder if a deal with TB is not already in place. If not, go for it. Will he come to Montreal? That's the question.

I could see another 3rd string D also. And a vet to backup Price.

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