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Another Jagr thread. Sundin+Jagr is Brooks #1 plan

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Old
07-01-2008, 12:29 AM
  #151
The Amity Affliction
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
I know what you're saying here, I see a lot of people around here saying it. However, I just have an issue with people 1) Assuming that Kovalchuk won't be locked up by some other team before he hits the market, and 2) Assuming that we'll even have the cap space to sign him. Sure, you're losing say, 12 million from Sundin and Jagr leaving, but a lot of that gets chewed up in resigning Dubi, Staal, etc. Not to mention if they are in fact allowed to rollover bonuses to the next season, Jagr and Sundin have a cap hit even after they're gone.
Well, first off... Kovalchuk probably won't be in Atlanta. He's already stressed that he doesn't like the direction the team is going in, and they haven't shown him any urgency to build a winner around him. He wants to win, and he doesn't want to wait to do so. They don't have forward depth up front in their system, and at the NHL level, Bryan Little is the closest thing they'll have to a true #1 center one day. I'm not sure about Espo right now, as his stock has dropped since the year before he was drafted.

Second, I see what you're saying in resigning the youngsters, but since we like to assume that we would get hit with rollover bonuses, I'll assume in this case that the cap goes up again. I could see us having the room needed to sign Kovalchuk. Definitely not though if we signed Hossa.

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Hossa vs Kovalchuk? Obviously the logical choice is Kovalchuk, but I'd still have to pick Hossa. Kovalchuk is a fantastic offensive threat, but I like Hossa's overall two-way game better. 35-40 goals + defensive ability at 8.5 million outweighs 50 goals at 10+ million. At least for me it does, I don't expect everyone to agree with me on that of course.
You think the same way I do, we like that tough two-way brand of hockey, and would take that over the flashy superstar game. However, Hossa is 4-5 years older than Kovalchuk. Kovalchuk would be 26 and Hossa would be 30-31 at the time that Kovy would hit UFA status. At that point, it's an easy sell in favor of Kovy.

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I just don't see a need for us to be in the hunt for UFA's down the line when salaries are only going up, and we aren't even sure what will be out there. Signing Hossa now solidifies a pairing of Hossa - Gomez for the next 6 years without worrying about fluctuation in their salaries. Couple that with a second line scoring threat involving Cherepanov and Anisimov and a 3rd line that is capable of scoring in their own right, and you've become a serious contender in this league.
I would normally agree, but I'm not sure if Hossa is the answer. He's always been more of a complimentary player, and hasn't handled the burden of carrying the offense well at times.

I just don't like this offseason at all... it's just like this year's election. All of the options suck, and things seem like they're going to get worse either way.

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I'll be honest here. At first, I was salivating over the idea of a Sundin - Jagr line. It does make sense on a lot of levels. However, I absolutely hate the idea of having guys counting against our salary cap when they aren't even on our roster anymore.
But who says they will? We don't even know what kind of offers have been made yet. We can only assume this at this point, and nothing's a lock on the UFA market.

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I also don't see the point of eating into two more years of Gomez and Drury's contracts by signing Jagr and players for Jagr when we've got almost 15 million in cap space invested in both of them and we have no players to compliment them.
This I agree, especially being that we overpaid one of those guys handsomely to come here with the premise of building around them both. Why delay the inevitable? The answer... maybe the young talent that we want to see so badly just isn't ready. Do we really want to pull a Manny Malhotra and throw the kids to the wolves? They did all of that work improving the system and restocking it with quality prospects, I can't see them taking a risk on screwing it all up just for a year or two of development. Hopefull they'll show us why they're getting paid to be heavily involved in front office operations of a professional sports franchise, and we're just a bunch of average-joe-armchair-gms.

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There is a tremendous double-standard amongst Ranger fans on here that I just can't wrap my mind around. Why is it always Drury or Gomez's fault that they put up 'poor' numbers, but there are a laundry list of reasons for why Jagr's decline in production is acceptable? Oh it was because Jagr didn't have a quality center, or he wasn't trying, or he doesn't fit the system. However finding quality wingers for our two quality centers seems to be a non-issue for a lot of people? It's not Jagr's fault he couldn't mesh with Gomez or Drury, it's Gomez and Drury's fault? I just don't get it.
Why is that double standard here? Because of the disgusting amount of homerism towards Jagr, who is the most revered Ranger since the Four Horsemen. He could do no wrong in these peoples eyes. Gomez and Drury however, any mistake they made is put under a magnifying glass thanks to some Jagr Goggles and a pair of 7 million dollar a year contracts handed out by a general manager who thought it would be fun to potentially put his club through cap hell for 5 years.

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Originally Posted by The Chariot View Post
Because he's Jaromir Jagr and we've all seen him take over a game and completely DOMINATE the ice.
Yes, but we don't know if he's that Jagr anymore. From what I saw during the regular season, he's not. If he can do what he did in the playoffs for at least 60 games, and be able to play at 100% in the playoffs, then it would be another story. I'm not totally convinced that he can, but I'm also not totally convinced that losing Nylander had nothing to do with it.

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Jagr is an Elite amongst the Elite. Players like him are so rare. We could debate how much he has left in the tank, but if the team decides Jagr is still the man than give him the linemates that let him go bananas on the other team.
That's the problem. If Jagr is so good, he shouldn't need that.

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Its not just fun to watch, root for. Jagr in the zone still has domineering potential and can win hockey games.
Can, but how often these days?

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Rangers already have a very good D
Didn't look so good throughout the season, and definitely not against Pittsburgh.

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Rangers already have some depth down the middle and some great prospects

Rangers already have a great goaltender

If Jagr is the RW on the top line, getting top line minutes PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY GET HIM THE RIGHT LINEMATES TO GET THE JOB DONE
This is what people mean by building the team around a 36 year old. It's not exactly smart. It could definitely hinder the growth of the team as a unit.

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Letting Nylander go was the right BUSINESS call. It was not the right call for the #1 line.

If Jagr returns Sather needs to fix that issue. We may even end up with an upgrade. Albeit a whole season later.
Again, Jagr is good enough to the point where it shouldn't be an issue. This is a guy that should show up every night with that chip on his shoulder he was playing with in the playoffs. No one is going to doubt his skill. His motivation and urgency, however, are a different story in their own.

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Old
07-01-2008, 01:20 AM
  #152
NYR Viper
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getting nervous as a lot of the players i want(redden, rolston, orpik) IMO wont be available for the rangers to grab and im afraid of sather trying to squeeze sundin and jagr out there where one injury ruins the entire season and possibly some of the next(with the rollover)

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Old
07-01-2008, 01:27 AM
  #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldshot View Post
Well, first off... Kovalchuk probably won't be in Atlanta. He's already stressed that he doesn't like the direction the team is going in, and they haven't shown him any urgency to build a winner around him. He wants to win, and he doesn't want to wait to do so. They don't have forward depth up front in their system, and at the NHL level, Bryan Little is the closest thing they'll have to a true #1 center one day. I'm not sure about Espo right now, as his stock has dropped since the year before he was drafted.

Second, I see what you're saying in resigning the youngsters, but since we like to assume that we would get hit with rollover bonuses, I'll assume in this case that the cap goes up again. I could see us having the room needed to sign Kovalchuk. Definitely not though if we signed Hossa.



You think the same way I do, we like that tough two-way brand of hockey, and would take that over the flashy superstar game. However, Hossa is 4-5 years older than Kovalchuk. Kovalchuk would be 26 and Hossa would be 30-31 at the time that Kovy would hit UFA status. At that point, it's an easy sell in favor of Kovy.



I would normally agree, but I'm not sure if Hossa is the answer. He's always been more of a complimentary player, and hasn't handled the burden of carrying the offense well at times.

I just don't like this offseason at all... it's just like this year's election. All of the options suck, and things seem like they're going to get worse either way.



But who says they will? We don't even know what kind of offers have been made yet. We can only assume this at this point, and nothing's a lock on the UFA market.



This I agree, especially being that we overpaid one of those guys handsomely to come here with the premise of building around them both. Why delay the inevitable? The answer... maybe the young talent that we want to see so badly just isn't ready. Do we really want to pull a Manny Malhotra and throw the kids to the wolves? They did all of that work improving the system and restocking it with quality prospects, I can't see them taking a risk on screwing it all up just for a year or two of development. Hopefull they'll show us why they're getting paid to be heavily involved in front office operations of a professional sports franchise, and we're just a bunch of average-joe-armchair-gms.



Why is that double standard here? Because of the disgusting amount of homerism towards Jagr, who is the most revered Ranger since the Four Horsemen. He could do no wrong in these peoples eyes. Gomez and Drury however, any mistake they made is put under a magnifying glass thanks to some Jagr Goggles and a pair of 7 million dollar a year contracts handed out by a general manager who thought it would be fun to potentially put his club through cap hell for 5 years.



Yes, but we don't know if he's that Jagr anymore. From what I saw during the regular season, he's not. If he can do what he did in the playoffs for at least 60 games, and be able to play at 100% in the playoffs, then it would be another story. I'm not totally convinced that he can, but I'm also not totally convinced that losing Nylander had nothing to do with it.



That's the problem. If Jagr is so good, he shouldn't need that.



Can, but how often these days?



Didn't look so good throughout the season, and definitely not against Pittsburgh.



This is what people mean by building the team around a 36 year old. It's not exactly smart. It could definitely hinder the growth of the team as a unit.



Again, Jagr is good enough to the point where it shouldn't be an issue. This is a guy that should show up every night with that chip on his shoulder he was playing with in the playoffs. No one is going to doubt his skill. His motivation and urgency, however, are a different story in their own.
Man you must be joking here! The whole season Jagr was not very popular on this board (my personal feelings) and you are great example. Maybe there was short period of time during playoff when Jagr was leading in points and everyone was so happy and JJ was such a beast, bla bla bla but except this he was considered as lazy, the worst captain in all sports ever, destructor of NYR PP, etc.
And now you can start again with the **** about czech purple goggles thing as you did it some time ago against me...

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Old
07-01-2008, 03:11 AM
  #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldshot View Post
Well, first off... Kovalchuk probably won't be in Atlanta. He's already stressed that he doesn't like the direction the team is going in, and they haven't shown him any urgency to build a winner around him. He wants to win, and he doesn't want to wait to do so. They don't have forward depth up front in their system, and at the NHL level, Bryan Little is the closest thing they'll have to a true #1 center one day. I'm not sure about Espo right now, as his stock has dropped since the year before he was drafted.

Second, I see what you're saying in resigning the youngsters, but since we like to assume that we would get hit with rollover bonuses, I'll assume in this case that the cap goes up again. I could see us having the room needed to sign Kovalchuk. Definitely not though if we signed Hossa.



You think the same way I do, we like that tough two-way brand of hockey, and would take that over the flashy superstar game. However, Hossa is 4-5 years older than Kovalchuk. Kovalchuk would be 26 and Hossa would be 30-31 at the time that Kovy would hit UFA status. At that point, it's an easy sell in favor of Kovy.



I would normally agree, but I'm not sure if Hossa is the answer. He's always been more of a complimentary player, and hasn't handled the burden of carrying the offense well at times.

I just don't like this offseason at all... it's just like this year's election. All of the options suck, and things seem like they're going to get worse either way.



But who says they will? We don't even know what kind of offers have been made yet. We can only assume this at this point, and nothing's a lock on the UFA market.



This I agree, especially being that we overpaid one of those guys handsomely to come here with the premise of building around them both. Why delay the inevitable? The answer... maybe the young talent that we want to see so badly just isn't ready. Do we really want to pull a Manny Malhotra and throw the kids to the wolves? They did all of that work improving the system and restocking it with quality prospects, I can't see them taking a risk on screwing it all up just for a year or two of development. Hopefull they'll show us why they're getting paid to be heavily involved in front office operations of a professional sports franchise, and we're just a bunch of average-joe-armchair-gms.



Why is that double standard here? Because of the disgusting amount of homerism towards Jagr, who is the most revered Ranger since the Four Horsemen. He could do no wrong in these peoples eyes. Gomez and Drury however, any mistake they made is put under a magnifying glass thanks to some Jagr Goggles and a pair of 7 million dollar a year contracts handed out by a general manager who thought it would be fun to potentially put his club through cap hell for 5 years.



Yes, but we don't know if he's that Jagr anymore. From what I saw during the regular season, he's not. If he can do what he did in the playoffs for at least 60 games, and be able to play at 100% in the playoffs, then it would be another story. I'm not totally convinced that he can, but I'm also not totally convinced that losing Nylander had nothing to do with it.



That's the problem. If Jagr is so good, he shouldn't need that.



Can, but how often these days?



Didn't look so good throughout the season, and definitely not against Pittsburgh.



This is what people mean by building the team around a 36 year old. It's not exactly smart. It could definitely hinder the growth of the team as a unit.



Again, Jagr is good enough to the point where it shouldn't be an issue. This is a guy that should show up every night with that chip on his shoulder he was playing with in the playoffs. No one is going to doubt his skill. His motivation and urgency, however, are a different story in their own.
He didn't look too good against the Pens? Wow, if it wasn't for him we woulda been swept. The Jagr bashing is getting out of hand now. You don't want him back thats fine, but don't say that he's horrible and isn't good. He showed everyone in the playoffs he can still be the best.

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Old
07-01-2008, 03:35 AM
  #155
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Guys like Roloston is very dangerous IMO.

He have taken on the burden in Minnesota and performed. His teammates trusts his ability and feeds him when something needs to get done. Roloston got a natrual position on that team.

He wouldn't have that in NY. And there would be a transition period for him just like it was for Drury and Gomez; and it took some time for both of them.

I think a player like Roloston got disaster potential; if he came in for like 6m per while Jagr bolted he would be asked to mantle a role he only have been able to sniff at in his best days while in a perfect role.

Confidence is extremely important in hockey, and when it comes to scoring the marginals are extremely small. Its not hard to go from scoring 70 pts to scoring 50 pts or 40 pts -- it becomes a downward spiral. A player like Roloston comes to NY and is expected to play a role it really isn't reasonable to expect him to shoulder, while he instead should be expected to perform less then he did in Minny because he needs a transitionperiod to adjust to a new team. That puts pressure on him and he starts loosing confidence et c.

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Old
07-01-2008, 04:02 AM
  #156
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Originally Posted by Edge View Post
But at the end of the day, what exactly would be the point of the move? It doesn't really make us a cup contender and who exactly are we buying time for with a move like Sundin? Dubinsky is now stuck as a third line center for at least one year, possibly two under the scenario you're willing to entertain. And how exactly are we going work Anisimov into the lineup should he continue to develop? Heck we'd already have Drury playing out of position to the tune of $5-million dollars a season.
If anyone should play out of position it should be a center. Guys who can transport the puck and are comfortable at handling the puck are the ones who are the most successful these days. I wouldn't have any problems having like 7 centers on a team, if they are the right centers.

Datsyuk and Zetterberg are 2 centers playing together, and both are basically playing like centers too. I have a hard time figureing out which one of the 2 is playing center at times...

Like Sundin would defenitly be a good fit on a RW next to Gomez.

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Old
07-01-2008, 04:19 AM
  #157
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Lots of good stuff from Brooks

http://www.nypost.com/seven/07012008...dar_118031.htm

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