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Old
06-23-2008, 10:31 PM
  #51
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Dang, you caused the site to crash from the demand! (I can't get through on the cstv one)

I have no idea how Wilson spotted his teammate on the first goal. At first I thought he was just guessing as he was looking up ice the whole time and the player was trailing. But in the slowmo it looks as if he turns his head and is about to make a decision on a bad angle shot and somehow saw enough with his peripheral vision to make the sweet feed. Awesome.

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06-26-2008, 02:16 PM
  #52
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Story from Wilson's birth town:

http://www.acorn-online.com/joomla15...orts&Itemid=70

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06-28-2008, 05:31 PM
  #53
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Colin Wilson and James Van Riemsdyk were a formidable pair to deal with at this past WJC for Team USA. They were the US's best players, and two of the best in the entire tourney.

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06-30-2008, 07:15 PM
  #54
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Is Colin Wilson NHL ready for next season? If so do you guys see him starting right away or spending some time in the AHL?

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06-30-2008, 07:38 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Jeff VanRichards View Post
Is Colin Wilson NHL ready for next season? If so do you guys see him starting right away or spending some time in the AHL?
He's surely gotta be better than Bonk, Nichol or any other bottom 6'er at this point

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07-01-2008, 08:12 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff VanRichards View Post
Is Colin Wilson NHL ready for next season? If so do you guys see him starting right away or spending some time in the AHL?
he might be ready, the prevailing question around here is: Is Trotz ready to properly coach a youngster?

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07-01-2008, 09:52 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by burnlikestars View Post
he might be ready, the prevailing question around here is: Is Trotz ready to properly coach a youngster?
Define "properly". Trotz is ready to coach a youngster into the kind of player the Preds prefer with attention to the two way game.

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07-01-2008, 09:57 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lstcyr View Post
Define "properly". Trotz is ready to coach a youngster into the kind of player the Preds prefer with attention to the two way game.
His ability to turn offense-first guys into two-way players is undeniable.

His ability to do so without stunting the offensive game that made them appealing is what's being called into question.

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07-01-2008, 11:37 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barrytrotzsneck View Post
His ability to turn offense-first guys into two-way players is undeniable.

His ability to do so without stunting the offensive game that made them appealing is what's being called into question.
I would argue that no forward has reached their full offensive potential under Barry Trotz except one: Rob Valicevic - 11/10/99.

Seriously though, only one young forward (that actually had decent expectations to begin with or wildly exceed his rookie year expectations) has ever acheived those offensive expectations under Trotz and that is Scott Walker. You could argue Erat, but I've actually expected more from him in his peak than <60 points. Radulov is too young to judge yet. But Upshall, Hartnell, Arkhipov, Hall, Legwand have all failed to live up to expectations set by management and the fanbase. The guys that seem to thrive under Trotz are either grinders or have made their mark elsewhere before becoming Predators: Sullivan, Dumont, Ronning, Arnott, Kariya, etc.


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07-01-2008, 12:16 PM
  #60
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SO, Trotz takes away their ability to shoot and score?

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07-01-2008, 12:27 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lstcyr View Post
SO, Trotz takes away their ability to shoot and score?
No. He simply puts such a focus into "being responsible" that they're put into a position where taking risks gets them called out, demoted, icetime slashed, etc.

Legwand, Erat, Upshall, Hartnell and now seemingly Radulov...basically, if you're not an established "veteran player," you get taken to task for shirking your supposed responsibilities. Do you think it's just coincidence that all of these high-profile offensive players came on to the team, and seemed to hit a wall where all of a sudden they could play on the penalty kill--but subsequently wouldn't provide much on the power play? It's not a simple matter of "they're not shooting or scoring."

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07-01-2008, 12:30 PM
  #62
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Zidlicky to Minnesota ... just heard on NHL Live

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07-01-2008, 12:32 PM
  #63
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Zidlicky to Minnesota ... just heard on NHL Live
For who or what?

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07-01-2008, 12:38 PM
  #64
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For who or what?
Ryan Jones & a 2nd

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07-01-2008, 03:38 PM
  #65
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If you caught any of the interviews of Wilson from the draft his dad played in the NHL and he said he taught him the importance of playing defence as well. I hope he turns out to be as good as a player as he looks on paper.

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07-01-2008, 05:29 PM
  #66
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I think it's the type of player the preds draft, not only Trotz.

"Upshall, Hartnell, Arkhipov, Hall,"

Which of these guys was supposed to have true NHL scoring talent? I think some of them are doing ok with their NHL careers. No, none became a big scorer, but from the first look at them in Nashville I didn't really see it in them anyway. Even though I liked them all. Maybe others did, I don't know.

If Radulov doesn't progress some more, and if Wilson bombs relative to expectations, I'll figure it's Trotz. Prior to them, the only guy I had scoring hopes for was Legwand. And I think his limitations are just that, HIS limitations. (I don't blame Trotz for ruining Leggy's career to the tune of a 6 year 27 million dollar deal. He must hate Trotz...)

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07-01-2008, 07:20 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OpenWheel View Post
I think it's the type of player the preds draft, not only Trotz.

"Upshall, Hartnell, Arkhipov, Hall,"

Which of these guys was supposed to have true NHL scoring talent?
Good point - none of these guys was a prolific goal scorer and only Arkhipov showed flashes of breaking out into an offensive threat. Hartnell was a decent net crasher, but even in juniors he wasn't a big goal scorer. I still cringe when I think of us drafting Upshall ahead of Lupul and Semin. That said - unless Radulov continues to progress, I think some of the complaints about Trotz will be justified.

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07-01-2008, 07:52 PM
  #68
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Could Wilson probably step in next year? Yeah.

The real question is should Wilson play here next year. Lets do what is best for his development.

Playing with Fiddler and Ortmeyer while being called out in the media by Trotz isn't going to do much for him.

This guy has the potential to be one our best forward draft picks. Lets hope we don't screw him up too.

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07-02-2008, 12:09 AM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockychica View Post
If you caught any of the interviews of Wilson from the draft his dad played in the NHL and he said he taught him the importance of playing defence as well. I hope he turns out to be as good as a player as he looks on paper.
Yeah practically every interview he did last week he talked about being able to play defense and take care of his own end so it's already in him to think defense first.

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07-02-2008, 07:07 AM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OpenWheel View Post
I think it's the type of player the preds draft, not only Trotz.

"Upshall, Hartnell, Arkhipov, Hall,"

Which of these guys was supposed to have true NHL scoring talent? I think some of them are doing ok with their NHL careers. No, none became a big scorer, but from the first look at them in Nashville I didn't really see it in them anyway. Even though I liked them all. Maybe others did, I don't know.
I think you inadvertantly supported my point.

Hartnell and Upshall were 'safe' picks with moderate upside but well-rounded games. They had moderate updsides for 6th overall picks. But let's not mistake that with the thought that they would be third line grinders coming from that draft position.

Hartnell

Despite being drafted 6th overall, third line grinder was exactly what Hartnell was when he left the Predators. Simply put, he never progressed into a good pointscorer, which he was certainly drafted to do. If you would have told Poile that drafting Hartnell would have meant zero seasons where he scored 50 points or more, Poile would have politely passed on him.

But this isn't to say that he didn't show flashes of brilliance. At the ripe old age of 23, Hartnell had a 25 goal, 48 point season that looked like a sign of things to come. Predators fans could certainly see a 30 goal, 60 points season on the horizon, which was about what was expected from him when he was drafted. Yet he regressed the following season and looked even worse in Philly. Oh, and for the well-rounded, rugged, scorer with good leadership skills that he was supposed to be when he was drafted, he left as a 40-45 point per game guy with mediocre defensive abilities, a penchant for terrible penalties, and a physical game that often fell silent when he left the Predators after 6 years under Trotz.

Upshall

Similar to Hartnell, though I think he was considered to have more offensive upside due to better hands and much better skating, this guy was to be the upgrade to Scott Walker. Yet he was basically an AHLer when he was traded to the Flyers. But, like Hartnell, Upshall showed flashes of brilliance. He was one of the Predators most efficient point producers in '05/'06 where he scored 24 points in very limited ice time at the age of 22. Despite that performance, he was never able to be a regular contributor to the Predators after that. Eventually leaving to the Flyers where in his first 79 games there, he had 20 goals and 23 assists, far better than the rest of his NHL career combined. And now he's back to showing signs of being exactly what we could sorely use right now.

Hall

Like the previous two, Hall came to us with the expectation that he would be a well-rounded, physical player. And he completely lived up to those expectations in his first year with the Preds. He had the makings of being a solid borderline second/third liner for us. Yet, much like the other two, despite a solid season around the age of 22/23, he never progressed as a player beyond that. He eventually left the Predators as a bad skating, stone handed winger/center with very little physicality. He's now a 4th liner.

Arkhipov

Just like all three, Arkhipov peaked at 22 with the Predators. He had a great 20 goal campaign despite playing for a defensive first team in limited minutes. And he never progressed from there. He actually regressed to the point where he's barely better in the RSL than when he left 8 years ago.

Legwand

This one almost got caught in the tractor beam as well. If it wasn't for two seasons ago, you could argue that he peaked at age 22 as well with his 17 goal, 48 point performance. But, unlike the rest of the guys, he was able to pull out of it even if it did take him 4 years to best those numbers. But, just like the aforemenionted quartet, he failed to live up to either the expectations set upon him the first time he put on a Preds jersey for an NHL game or the expectations set upon him by his first 'breakout' season. Who would have thought that 10 years after having drafted the most dynamic scoring "draft eligible" player in the OHL, he would have only once crested 20 goals OR 50 points?

Now, each one of these guys is responsible for his own actions, and Trotz is not entirely to blame. But the similarities in their careers is too much to just ignore and pass off to "they never had the upside to begin with." They clearly showed their talents with breakout seasons at the age of 22/23.

The common denominator in each one of these frustrating stories is Barry Trotz. Sure, maybe they would have all busted out regardless of the NHL coach. But maybe Trotz had a part in it. Maybe there's a reason why only two forwards who've had ANY formative years under Trotz have ever gone on to score 60 points in a season while still under his tuteledge:

Scott Walker -67 points - 2003/2004
David Legwand - 63 points - 2006/2007

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07-02-2008, 08:44 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by SmokeyClause View Post
I think you inadvertantly supported my point.

Hartnell and Upshall were 'safe' picks with moderate upside but well-rounded games. They had moderate updsides for 6th overall picks. But let's not mistake that with the thought that they would be third line grinders coming from that draft position.

Hartnell

Despite being drafted 6th overall, third line grinder was exactly what Hartnell was when he left the Predators. Simply put, he never progressed into a good pointscorer, which he was certainly drafted to do. If you would have told Poile that drafting Hartnell would have meant zero seasons where he scored 50 points or more, Poile would have politely passed on him.

But this isn't to say that he didn't show flashes of brilliance. At the ripe old age of 23, Hartnell had a 25 goal, 48 point season that looked like a sign of things to come. Predators fans could certainly see a 30 goal, 60 points season on the horizon, which was about what was expected from him when he was drafted. Yet he regressed the following season and looked even worse in Philly. Oh, and for the well-rounded, rugged, scorer with good leadership skills that he was supposed to be when he was drafted, he left as a 40-45 point per game guy with mediocre defensive abilities, a penchant for terrible penalties, and a physical game that often fell silent when he left the Predators after 6 years under Trotz.

Upshall

Similar to Hartnell, though I think he was considered to have more offensive upside due to better hands and much better skating, this guy was to be the upgrade to Scott Walker. Yet he was basically an AHLer when he was traded to the Flyers. But, like Hartnell, Upshall showed flashes of brilliance. He was one of the Predators most efficient point producers in '05/'06 where he scored 24 points in very limited ice time at the age of 22. Despite that performance, he was never able to be a regular contributor to the Predators after that. Eventually leaving to the Flyers where in his first 79 games there, he had 20 goals and 23 assists, far better than the rest of his NHL career combined. And now he's back to showing signs of being exactly what we could sorely use right now.

Hall

Like the previous two, Hall came to us with the expectation that he would be a well-rounded, physical player. And he completely lived up to those expectations in his first year with the Preds. He had the makings of being a solid borderline second/third liner for us. Yet, much like the other two, despite a solid season around the age of 22/23, he never progressed as a player beyond that. He eventually left the Predators as a bad skating, stone handed winger/center with very little physicality. He's now a 4th liner.

Arkhipov

Just like all three, Arkhipov peaked at 22 with the Predators. He had a great 20 goal campaign despite playing for a defensive first team in limited minutes. And he never progressed from there. He actually regressed to the point where he's barely better in the RSL than when he left 8 years ago.

Legwand

This one almost got caught in the tractor beam as well. If it wasn't for two seasons ago, you could argue that he peaked at age 22 as well with his 17 goal, 48 point performance. But, unlike the rest of the guys, he was able to pull out of it even if it did take him 4 years to best those numbers. But, just like the aforemenionted quartet, he failed to live up to either the expectations set upon him the first time he put on a Preds jersey for an NHL game or the expectations set upon him by his first 'breakout' season. Who would have thought that 10 years after having drafted the most dynamic scoring "draft eligible" player in the OHL, he would have only once crested 20 goals OR 50 points?

Now, each one of these guys is responsible for his own actions, and Trotz is not entirely to blame. But the similarities in their careers is too much to just ignore and pass off to "they never had the upside to begin with." They clearly showed their talents with breakout seasons at the age of 22/23.

The common denominator in each one of these frustrating stories is Barry Trotz. Sure, maybe they would have all busted out regardless of the NHL coach. But maybe Trotz had a part in it. Maybe there's a reason why only two forwards who've had ANY formative years under Trotz have ever gone on to score 60 points in a season while still under his tuteledge:

Scott Walker -67 points - 2003/2004
David Legwand - 63 points - 2006/2007
wow, well said sir. here here!

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07-02-2008, 12:03 PM
  #72
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Nice synopsis Smokey.

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07-02-2008, 01:36 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by SmokeyClause View Post
I think you inadvertantly supported my point.
That's usually the only way I support even my own points.

I can't quibble much with what you say. As I said, I liked all those guys as NHL players when they first arrived. But "scorer" was never the reason.

I was telling the fans in the stands around me what we had in Arkhipov. I was a fan. Was bummed he never really continued to progress. Was it Trotz? Dunno. People began blaming Arkhipov. Saying it was headcase type stuff. I felt he looked a bit lazy on the ice.

Hartnell? Well, we'll see. If he blossoms in Philly, than it was Trotz. (I wasn't a fan of the trade. But Trotz wasn't using him as much as he could have.)

Upshall. I had high hopes for him, even as a consistent scorer. I sort of blame Trotz for that one.

Hall? If a guy leaves with "stone hands" it ain't the coach in my opinion. I had hopes for Hall also when he arrived.

We'll see. Trotz has to show something with Radulov and Wilson, for me to be happy. I'm saying I'm not convinced Trotz is so bad in development. I find it hard to believe that "earn your stripes with two-way play" really destroys offensive ability. Which is what many of the naysayers seem to be saying.


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07-02-2008, 02:08 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by OpenWheel View Post
I find it hard to believe that "earn your stripes with two-way play" really destroys offensive ability. Which is what many of the naysayers seem to be saying.
It can be dangerous though to constantly use the hook to remove very talented, but young players when they make mistakes on the ice. A strong argument can be made to say that it destroys there confidence and drastically alters the way they play.

But I don't think it's that necessarily. In fact, I'm not even sure what Trotz is doing wrong, if anything. And correlation isn't always causation. So it may be just a series of players who weren't ever going to be good/great players regardless.

But when you can count a half dozen players who all showed promise around the same age yet disappointed in the end, you begin to wonder...

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07-02-2008, 02:29 PM
  #75
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It can be dangerous though to constantly use the hook to remove very talented, but young players when they make mistakes on the ice. A strong argument can be made to say that it destroys there confidence and drastically alters the way they play.
For proof of this, look no further than last year's Capitals team. Hanlon gave Backstrom limited duty on the wing, not trusting him to play center as he made some mistakes in his first chances at center early in the season. Same thing with Semin, to an extent. Exit Hanlon and enter Boudreau - he turned the players loose, guys like Backstrom, Green, Semin (and of course Ovechkin) and was rewarded with a playoff berth and a sterling finish to the year from Backstrom.

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