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Old
07-02-2008, 05:49 AM
  #376
VelvetJones
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Originally Posted by Real_Estate-Agent View Post
A $63 million over 7 years is a $9 million cap hit no matter if it is $9 million per season or 13, 11, 11, 9, 7, 7, 5......... Seriously...


We don't know the numbers yet do we, all we know is speculation. There's numbers from 9 years at 90 million to whatever.

Lets talk about this after a deal is done.

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07-02-2008, 05:55 AM
  #377
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REA, if you are going to boycott Katz's companies, does that mean you can no longer buy your tinfoil from Rexall Drug for your hats?

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07-02-2008, 05:58 AM
  #378
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Originally Posted by CorpseFX View Post
REA, if you are going to boycott Katz's companies, does that mean you can no longer buy your tinfoil from Rexall Drug for your hats?
He's pissed, we have to not take everything he says seriously.

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07-02-2008, 06:04 AM
  #379
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Originally Posted by Real_Estate-Agent View Post
therefore it is idiotic to sign 31 year old NHL players tor $9 million per season expecting that salary will be justified when they are halfway through the contract
why would Hossa really command every Edmonton taxpayer to jump on board paying for a new arena? if youre that naive, you are dumber than your posts.

"oh, Mr. Katz, did you just sign Hossa? fine, we'll pass a tax to pay for your new arena." sorry, but the agenda for the new arena would be pushed regardless if Hossa comes to town or not - AND HE HASNT EVEN BEEN ANNOUNCED TO GO TO THE OILERS YET. so quit jumping the gun

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07-02-2008, 06:05 AM
  #380
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Originally Posted by Real_Estate-Agent View Post
A $63 million over 7 years is a $9 million cap hit no matter if it is $9 million per season or 13, 11, 11, 9, 7, 7, 5......... Seriously...



The cap will not continue to go up - we had a lockout 3 years ago when the majority of NHL owners were losing money - when salaries were much lower...


I had a serious discussion last summer (on a deleted thread) that housing prices were going to drop big time - it went on for page after page - my logic was good & was backed by facts - I was 100% accurate......

I am telling you right now that the cap has almost reached its peak - if it rises much more, teams will go bankrupt - therefore it is idiotic to sign 31 year old NHL players tor $9 million per season expecting that salary will be justified when they are halfway through the contract.

The Hossa signing is a PR move for Katz to get taxpayers money for a new arena - and you are a pawn if you believe otherwise....

And the Oilers will lose most of our young talent if the signing occurs............
You're really trying to make friends, aren't you? You are right and everyone else is wrong. Also, Hossa is not 31, but 29 which puts him right in his prime.

I think you need to relax and take a few deep breaths here.

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07-02-2008, 06:10 AM
  #381
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Real_Estate-Agent View Post
A $63 million over 7 years is a $9 million cap hit no matter if it is $9 million per season or 13, 11, 11, 9, 7, 7, 5......... Seriously...
The way payment is structured is conducive to NOT paying an older elite player too much in his golden years, while allowing room for distribution of money in other camps who have evolved. Semantics is all that is - thanks for pointing that out to us Captain Obvious.

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Originally Posted by Real_Estate-Agent View Post
The cap will not continue to go up - we had a lockout 3 years ago when the majority of NHL owners were losing money - when salaries were much lower...
You cannot be so decisive about a figure that, quite frankly, none of us have enough knowledge about to make even an educated guess. I would trust Katz and Klowe with their outlook in this department any day. One is a billionaire and the other has his finger to the pulse of the NHL.

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Originally Posted by Real_Estate-Agent View Post
I had a serious discussion last summer (on a deleted thread) that housing prices were going to drop big time - it went on for page after page - my logic was good & was backed by facts - I was 100% accurate......
There is no revelation to housing prices not being able to sustain. Albertans were met with a huge economy surge that had people flocking here for jobs. Throw in a few natural disasters depleting our resources (lumber, cement etc.) along with demand and bang - the price of building is way up.

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Originally Posted by Real_Estate-Agent View Post
I am telling you right now that the cap has almost reached its peak - if it rises much more, teams will go bankrupt - therefore it is idiotic to sign 31 year old NHL players tor $9 million per season expecting that salary will be justified when they are halfway through the contract.
You can't draw a parallel between the salary cap and housing prices. They are two very different animals. The bare bones business logic is about as far as you can go, that is, get while the gettin' is good. Alberta is an economy swollen with profit, and there is no better time to pitch for slightly novel items (e.g. arena, museum etc.).

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Originally Posted by Real_Estate-Agent View Post
The Hossa signing is a PR move for Katz to get taxpayers money for a new arena - and you are a pawn if you believe otherwise....
While there might be a certain degree of truth to your claim, you're going about it FAR too emphatically. In fact, your self proclamations are malicious in the attempt to discredit the popular stand point on this topic. Do whatever you have to do to stroke your ego some more, but don't use a blanket to call me a "pawn".

There isn't a better opportunity to take the Oilers to a complete new level. Katz has a vision and you're short sited to think that his intentions are for soul personal gain. The guy is Edmontonian through and through, yet this hair brained conspiracy theory your trying to sell us ends with the Katz stripping his asset of all its assets. Get off the junk man, the only one you're fooling is yourself.

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Originally Posted by Real_Estate-Agent View Post
And the Oilers will lose most of our young talent if the signing occurs............
While simple reasoning appears to point toward the potential of this happening, there is always another way to navigate to the same destination. There is a broader scope here.

Once again I'll trust the foresight, insight and knowledge of our guys in the trenches to take us to the promise land, over the opinion of a columnist who has interest in creating controversy every time his fingers meet the keyboard.


Last edited by Julio18: 07-02-2008 at 06:26 AM.
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07-02-2008, 06:20 AM
  #382
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the second time you said hes 31 hes 29.He would be our best player, and we wouldnt be sacrificing gagner, or cogs. so stop whining, and wait and see what happens.
I think REA is right actually - we will be in a pretty difficult position next off-season.

Horcoff, Cole could command 10M or more combined

Brodziak will demand a big raise (possibly around 2M)

Grebs and Smid could get big raises given the premium on defensemen (up to 5M combined)

Roloson and Garon will both be off the books too. Garon, if he has a good year, might be in the 3-4M range.

The only one of these guys that might not be with us this year is Roloson.

It seems likely that we'll be close to the cap this year so we will definitely be looking to move some bodies if we want most of these players back in 09-10. The genius of the moves so far is that we are still in pretty good shape cap-wise with a fairly solid lineup.

Still, I want Hossa on the Oilers. It is completely irrational and insane, but it would be awesome.

Edit: I should add that the cap going down is the same as the cap not changing at all since salaries are cut down proportional to the decrease. However, I don't think the cap will be going down, but still, the increase won't be enough to cover all of the UFAs next year


Last edited by Blatherblah: 07-02-2008 at 06:36 AM.
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07-02-2008, 06:35 AM
  #383
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He's pissed, we have to not take everything he says seriously.
exactly.... when people are mad they say/type things they don't really mean .... i know i've done it after some rather bad losses

although i agree with him that paying hossa 9 million is simply too much money and we should walk away at that price.... i dont think the repercutions will be as bad as he does, but i don't think that hossa stands a chance of outplaying his contract (especially once hes 33+).... and the capped world is all about having players that outplay their contract

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07-02-2008, 06:41 AM
  #384
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Why would we want Hossa anyways? Hemsky is just entering his prime.

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07-02-2008, 06:46 AM
  #385
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Originally Posted by Real_Estate-Agent View Post
I had a serious discussion last summer (on a deleted thread) that housing prices were going to drop big time - it went on for page after page - my logic was good & was backed by facts - I was 100% accurate......

I am telling you right now that the cap has almost reached its peak - if it rises much more, teams will go bankrupt - therefore it is idiotic to sign 31 year old NHL players tor $9 million per season expecting that salary will be justified when they are halfway through the contract.

The Hossa signing is a PR move for Katz to get taxpayers money for a new arena - and you are a pawn if you believe otherwise....

And the Oilers will lose most of our young talent if the signing occurs............
So the ability to predict the housing market means you know where the salary cap is going? Admirable. And also fairly unrelated. The salary cap inflates with revenues. The Canadian teams have yet to hit the breaking point where higher ticket prices become prohibitive; they're going to continue to push revenues.

Some teams will not be in good financial shape, and hopefully, this will trigger the migration of teams like the Lightning and Predators to better markets. They could easily put a team in Hamilton and Winnipeg, and move another two less-than-successful to other American markets that have more ability to sustain them.

Is signing Hossa part of a plan to gain support for a new arena? Yes. It's also a hockey move. Hossa happens to be a rather good player, and he can be had without sacrificing draft picks.

But your assertion that anyone who doesn't agree with you is a pawn is ridiculous. No, I'm not going to simply give in and agree with you. No, that does not make me a pawn. What would make me a pawn would be to simply placidly agree with you because I'm afraid of you labelling me as one. Instead, I'm electing to form my own opinion, largely because it's extremely likely that I'm brighter than you (based on the available evidence), and because I would rather listen to my own reasoning than some guy who rants over the internet.

It's not a doomsday scenario. Long-term, the Oilers will likely have to give up the contract of someone they could have afforded if they had not signed Hossa. But this isn't so cut and dried. First, is this player necessarily going to be more high impact than Hossa? Second, this player can be traded for prospects/picks, additional resources you wouldn't have had if you had never signed Hossa. That's the benefit of signing a player like Hossa; you gain additional resources within your organization without using any up. It's a trade-off, pure and simple. You spend more of your cap than you'd like in order to gain an asset that costs no existing assets or organizational currency (IE, draft picks).

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07-02-2008, 06:46 AM
  #386
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exactly.... when people are mad they say/type things they don't really mean .... i know i've done it after some rather bad losses

although i agree with him that paying hossa 9 million is simply too much money and we should walk away at that price.... i dont think the repercutions will be as bad as he does, but i don't think that hossa stands a chance of outplaying his contract (especially once hes 33+).... and the capped world is all about having players that outplay their contract
It would certainly be a hard contract to out perform from a tangible perspective, but look at what guys like Yzerman, Shanahan and Hull did into their mid-to-late 30's.

Throw in some intangibles like influence, guidance and development towards our youth and maximizing our current asset in Hemsky (which we really need to do). Suddenly Hossa's intangible value is carried well into the future.

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07-02-2008, 06:48 AM
  #387
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Why would we want Hossa anyways? Hemsky is just entering his prime.
It's hard to turn down a 80-95 point player that can be had without giving up any players/picks/prospects. And they want to make a statement that now that Katz owns this team, they are willing to be aggressive.

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07-02-2008, 06:49 AM
  #388
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What exactly has Hossa done other than underperformed all his carrer palying with arguably even better players than he is?

And yes...I consider his performance with Crosby an underperformance considering how good they both are supposed to be..I was undewhelmed..

they were no Gretz-Kurri as the emdia hyped before the trade.

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07-02-2008, 06:51 AM
  #389
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It would certainly be a hard contract to out perform from a tangible perspective, but look at what guys like Yzerman, Shanahan and Hull did into their mid-to-late 30's.

Throw in some intangibles like influence, guidance and development towards our youth and maximizing our current asset in Hemsky (which we really need to do). Suddenly Hossa's intangible value is carried well into the future.
The biggest intangible--the Oilers are suddenly seen as a suitor for high end players. A team that as one of the league's elite, is actually worth going to.

IMO, you overpay the guys you project are going to be in the Hockey Hall of Fame. Even if they don't quite cover their contract, they're usually invaluable. The projection is tricky and risky, but so is hockey management in general. Hossa is one of those players. Redden, for instance, isn't.

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07-02-2008, 06:52 AM
  #390
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Why would we want Hossa anyways? Hemsky is just entering his prime.
The goal is usually to get as many good players as possible.

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07-02-2008, 06:54 AM
  #391
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The goal is usually to get as many good players as possible.
You also have to manage your contracts and think forward instead of fast fix.

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07-02-2008, 06:56 AM
  #392
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A cursory glance at this thread leaves me with the impression that there's alot people who "want to have their cake and eat it too"

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07-02-2008, 07:00 AM
  #393
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What exactly has Hossa done other than underperformed all his carrer palying with arguably even better players than he is?

And yes...I consider his performance with Crosby an underperformance considering how good they both are supposed to be..I was undewhelmed..

they were no Gretz-Kurri as the emdia hyped before the trade.
That was ALL Detroit picking apart the Penguins. The Wings played like a unit (short passes, puck support, and skill) while the Penguins played as the individuals that they are (stretch passes, dangles etc.).

Hossa performed better than he ever has from a playoff point perspective. They just didn't play as a team, and too many individual efforts to change the outcome of each game. Detroit easily smothered them.

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07-02-2008, 07:00 AM
  #394
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Why would we want Hossa anyways? Hemsky is just entering his prime.
Why did Pittsburg want Malkin when they already had Crosby?

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07-02-2008, 07:00 AM
  #395
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You also have to manage your contracts and think forward instead of fast fix.
Yes, and you'd have to think Lowe and his capologist/lawyer buddies have a fairly good handle on that, no? Hossa wouldn't be an issue if there was no plan regarding the cap.

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07-02-2008, 07:03 AM
  #396
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What exactly has Hossa done other than underperformed all his carrer palying with arguably even better players than he is?

And yes...I consider his performance with Crosby an underperformance considering how good they both are supposed to be..I was undewhelmed..

they were no Gretz-Kurri as the emdia hyped before the trade.
again, i would like to start by saying that i don't want hossa at his asking price.... that being said....

you were underwhelmed by the players who finished #2 and #3 in the playoff scoring race? crosby got 27 points in 20 games and hossa got 26 points in 20 games.... they actually finished #1 and #2 in PPG for the playoffs (as zetterburg played 2 more games).... hossa has the 2nd most goals in the entire playoffs, with 12 goals in 20 games.... i seriously don't understand how thats anything but impressive

again, i dont want him on the oilers for 9 million/season, but his playoff performance was very, very good

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07-02-2008, 07:17 AM
  #397
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The biggest intangible--the Oilers are suddenly seen as a suitor for high end players. A team that as one of the league's elite, is actually worth going to.

IMO, you overpay the guys you project are going to be in the Hockey Hall of Fame. Even if they don't quite cover their contract, they're usually invaluable. The projection is tricky and risky, but so is hockey management in general. Hossa is one of those players. Redden, for instance, isn't.
Agree.

When all this talk about Hossa came about, I really didn't think we stood a chance. Initially I was in REA's camp (as much as I hate to admit it right now), but after evaluating things a little closer, I wouldn't mind seeing this play out either way.

We have a chance at making a bold move, casting the small market label aside and getting into a bigger barn. Or we can play it conservatively and continue to develop the competitive roster we have. Either way I'm happy.

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07-02-2008, 07:30 AM
  #398
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but i don't think that hossa stands a chance of outplaying his contract (especially once hes 33+).... and the capped world is all about having players that outplay their contract
you already have a player doing that with Hemsky. hence why you can overpay Hossa a little (if he goes for 9 million thats about a 1-1.5 million overpay. he would have got 8 million from someone else easily). you also have prospects like Gagner and Cogs outplaying their rookie contracts. you also have an underpaid Horcoff currently. you also have more prospects coming up in the near future.

if you really think you can just find players to outplay their contracts, without FLEECING the player like Detroit tries to (Datsyuk), good luck. especially in Edmonton. and if youre worried about players outplaying their contract, why is everyone fine with Moreau and Pisani's contracts? and if you dont think Hossa brings any intangibles like those players do outside of the points he puts up - you obviously dont watch his game. hes defensively solid and will make him and Horcoff on a line look like absolute studs. he was in the top 10 for takeaways in the entire NHL with 66. both are FAST players who backcheck hard. what does that do? it helps your defense immensely. or would you rather have someone like Jagr who is a backchecking nightmare, cherry picker and is heartless? "but hes cheaper." and if you dont try to get better players like Hossa, it just makes the depth of your team that much worse. it makes Penner play on the top line, which isnt even where he belongs regardless of the "chemistry" he had putting up 40 points on a top line.

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07-02-2008, 07:37 AM
  #399
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I perhaps don't want him either at 9 million a year. But I think things have changed and 5 on 5 scoring is a myth and it comes down to the powerplay.

If you have a deadly powerplay teams play you different, they don't goon you up if they know 2 mins is a goal. Nobody plays the habs hard because they know they will get punished.

This is also why Souray should stay.

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07-02-2008, 07:47 AM
  #400
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I perhaps don't want him either at 9 million a year. But I think things have changed and 5 on 5 scoring is a myth and it comes down to the powerplay.

If you have a deadly powerplay teams play you different, they don't goon you up if they know 2 mins is a goal. Nobody plays the habs hard because they know they will get punished.

This is also why Souray should stay.
You can add Detroit to the mix on that point. They punish you on the powerplay. That's why you see so many teams play honest against them.

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