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Discussion: Flames vs. Oilers current line-up

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Old
07-03-2008, 08:20 PM
  #1
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Discussion: Flames vs. Oilers current line-up

Lets compare the Flames and Oilers lineups currently


Camalleri-Langkow-Iginla
Bourque-Lombardi-Boyd
Glencross-Conroy-Nolan(hell most likely resign)
Prust-Primeau-Moss

Phaneuf-Aucion
Regehr-Sarich
Vandermeer-Giordano

Kipper
Mchelhinney


Cole-Horcoff/Gagner-Hemsky
Penner-Gagner/Horcoff-Nilsson
Schremp-Cogliano-Brule
Moreau-Brodziak-Pisani

Visnovsky-Gilbert
Souray-Grebeshkov
Smid-Staios

Garon
JDD

thoughts?

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Old
07-03-2008, 08:51 PM
  #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLastoftheBest11 View Post
Lets compare the Flames and Oilers lineups currently


Camalleri-Langkow-Iginla
Bourque-Lombardi-Boyd
Glencross-Conroy-Nolan(hell most likely resign)
Prust-Primeau-Moss

Phaneuf-Aucion
Regehr-Sarich
Vandermeer-Giordano

Kipper
Mchelhinney


Cole-Horcoff/Gagner-Hemsky
Penner-Gagner/Horcoff-Nilsson
Schremp-Cogliano-Brule
Moreau-Brodziak-Pisani

Visnovsky-Gilbert
Souray-Grebeshkov
Smid-Staios

Garon
JDD

thoughts?
Edm has a better 2nd and 4th line, better 3rd pairing dmen....that's about it

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07-03-2008, 09:00 PM
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dallas Flames Fan View Post
Edm has a better 2nd and 4th line, better 3rd pairing dmen....that's about it
Better third line as well.

Schremp,Brule and Cogliano= Adept Speed,Skill and goal-scoring.

They are better than the flames third line, since both Cogliano and Brule are very young and are said to have sound two-way play.


The Flames have a better top line because of Iginla, even that I think that Gagner/Hemsky have the potential to be 100 Point guys in their prime playing with each other.

Cole=Camalleri
Hemsky>Langkow
Gagner (in his prime)= Iginla

Gagner had a 18 yr old rookie season of 49/79= .62 PPG
Iginla had a 19 yr old rookie season of 50/82= .61 PPG

Very similar numbers.

Except Gagner's going to be a dynamic Playmaker, Iginla is a dynamic power forward.

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07-03-2008, 09:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLastoftheBest11 View Post
Gagner (in his prime)= Iginla

Gagner had a 18 yr old rookie season of 49/79= .62 PPG
Iginla had a 19 yr old rookie season of 50/82= .61 PPG

Very similar numbers.

Except Gagner's going to be a dynamic Playmaker, Iginla is a dynamic power forward.
we are talking about today man....your argument that Gagner=Iginla make the whole discussion useless

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07-03-2008, 09:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dallas Flames Fan View Post
Edm has a better 2nd and 4th line, better 3rd pairing dmen....that's about it
depending on how much better playing in russia has made gio, im tempted say the 3rd pairing d lines are about equal

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07-03-2008, 10:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dallas Flames Fan View Post
we are talking about today man....your argument that Gagner=Iginla make the whole discussion useless
Then I would say that the Flames have the better first line.

We have a better 2nd,3rd and 4th Line. Which means we have a better overall forward core.

Our Defense is pretty even in terms of production, we have much better puck movement and some sandpaper with guys like Souray and Smid.

The Flames Defense has many physical defenseman, but when it comes to puck-movement, everyone but Phaneuf and Giordano are adequate-average.

Also FYI, Hemsky has had a better developing 5 seasons then Iginla. I can see him being a 90+ Point player in 2 years.

Iginla: PPG after 5 seasons= .69 PPG

Hemsky: PPG after 5 seasons= .76 PPG

Im just saying that we have two young, and highly-skilled players who have the potential of being better than Iginla statistically.

Im just saying before long we will be able to match your first line.

NW Rankings IMO:

Minnesota
Edmonton
Calgary
Colorado
Vancouver

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07-04-2008, 03:47 AM
  #7
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Originally Posted by TheLastoftheBest11 View Post
Better third line as well.

Schremp,Brule and Cogliano= Adept Speed,Skill and goal-scoring.

They are better than the flames third line, since both Cogliano and Brule are very young and are said to have sound two-way play.
Just my opinion, but a line of Schremp, Cogliano and Brule would get eaten alive.

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07-04-2008, 08:56 AM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLastoftheBest11 View Post
Better third line as well.

Schremp,Brule and Cogliano= Adept Speed,Skill and goal-scoring.

They are better than the flames third line, since both Cogliano and Brule are very young and are said to have sound two-way play.


The Flames have a better top line because of Iginla, even that I think that Gagner/Hemsky have the potential to be 100 Point guys in their prime playing with each other.

Cole=Camalleri
Hemsky>Langkow
Gagner (in his prime)= Iginla

Gagner had a 18 yr old rookie season of 49/79= .62 PPG
Iginla had a 19 yr old rookie season of 50/82= .61 PPG

Very similar numbers.

Except Gagner's going to be a dynamic Playmaker, Iginla is a dynamic power forward.
Both are soft and unproven at the NHL level...since his injury a couple of years back, Brule has done very little to silence his critics, and Schremp (albeit a gifted prospect) has a ton to prove before he deserves respect (and don't even start with his AHL stats...it's a different game).

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07-04-2008, 09:45 AM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CGY View Post
Just my opinion, but a line of Schremp, Cogliano and Brule would get eaten alive.
Gagner Cogliano and Nilsson weren't eaten alive were they?

In terms of minutes however, we would roll this way.

1st Line
2nd Line/4th Line
4th Line/2nd Line
3rd Line


So if we are indeed healthy throughout the year, we will have 3 scoring lines and One checking line.

The Flames have 1 scoring line, two checking lines and an energy line.

I would personally prefer the former.

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07-04-2008, 09:47 AM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLastoftheBest11 View Post
Gagner Cogliano and Nilsson weren't eaten alive were they?

In terms of minutes however, we would roll this way.

1st Line
2nd Line/4th Line
4th Line/2nd Line
3rd Line


So if we are indeed healthy throughout the year, we will have 3 scoring lines and One checking line.

The Flames have 1 scoring line, two checking lines and an energy line.

I would personally prefer the former.
I would prefer the team with the significant edges on defense and in goal.

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07-04-2008, 09:50 AM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wags View Post
Both are soft and unproven at the NHL level...since his injury a couple of years back, Brule has done very little to silence his critics, and Schremp (albeit a gifted prospect) has a ton to prove before he deserves respect (and don't even start with his AHL stats...it's a different game).
Gagner came straight out of the OHL last year as an 18 year old, he managed to get 51 points didn't he, playing on the second line?

Him and Schremp are pretty identical in their playing styles, both are average to decent skaters, aren't the most reliable defensively, considered soft.

The only difference is that Gagner has tremendous hockey sense, but I think Schremp has just as much raw talent.

Brule can play physical, has speed, has a ton of years to improve, great hands and great offensive instincts.

Hes pretty much a rich man's Glencross who can potentially end up with 30-40 Points playing with those two next year.

And Cogliano has the potential to be a better version of Shawn Horcoff.

Edmontons forwards>Calgarys forwards

Edmontons Defense=Calgarys Defense

Edmontons Goaltending<Calgarys goaltending

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07-04-2008, 10:01 AM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Neighbour View Post
I would prefer the team with the significant edges on defense and in goal.
In goal yes, not much on Defense.

Souray> Regehr since Regehr has like hardly any offensive talent. They both play similar styles and are adequate puck-movers

Visnovsky=Phaneuf, Both have great shots, Lubos a great puck-mover/Mobile, Phaneuf is very raw and physical, both are improving defensively and Lubos known to throw some good hits.

Gilbert> Aucoin, I would prefer Gilbert anyday over Aucoin, Gilbert is young has tremendous upside, Solid Puck-mover. Aucoin is on a steady decline and is no longer an impact defenseman

Grebeshkov>Giordano, Its hard to compare these two, however I would say both are solid puck-movers and can play against some tough opposition. Giordano displays some good puck-movement and is mobile, Grebs has great Puck-moving skills and skating ability, he can also play physical and can play in all game situations. Much Like Visnovksy and Gilbert in that sense, but not as talented nor statistical. Grebs is much more reliable however.

Smid> Vandermeer, they play similar similar games, get in scraps, but Smid is a great skater and decent puck-mover which gives him the slight advantage.

Staios=Sarich, they are both similar as well, both physical, good leaders, play defense-first game, but are adequate puck-movers and not the most mobile.

So how do you say you have a significant edge defensively?

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07-04-2008, 10:15 AM
  #13
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Originally Posted by TheLastoftheBest11 View Post
In goal yes, not much on Defense.

Souray<<< Regehr since Regehr has like hardly any offensive talent. They both play similar styles and are adequate puck-movers

Wow, that is absolutely ridiculous, Regehr is a elite shut down D-man, Sourey has elite injury issues and a passive aggressive approach to actually playing defense.

Visnovsky<<Phaneuf, Both have great shots, Lubos a great puck-mover/Mobile, Phaneuf is very raw and physical, both are improving defensively and Lubos known to throw some good hits.

Not even close, Sure Visnovsky "might" do better the Pitkanen experiment, however to say he is equal with Phaneuf is pretty silly, take off the copper and blue goggles, lol.

Gilbert> Aucoin, I would prefer Gilbert anyday over Aucoin, Gilbert is young has tremendous upside, Solid Puck-mover. Aucoin is on a steady decline and is no longer an impact defenseman

Aucoin needs to be moved, I agree here, however he is more serviceable then Sourey and is still effective on the PP.

Grebeshkov=Giordano, Its hard to compare these two, however I would say both are solid puck-movers and can play against some tough opposition. Giordano displays some good puck-movement and is mobile, Grebs has great Puck-moving skills and skating ability, he can also play physical and can play in all game situations. Much Like Visnovksy and Gilbert in that sense, but not as talented nor statistical. Grebs is much more reliable however.

Really do you live in Russia? Did you actually watch Gio or are you just assuming again? For a 6th D-man who was part of Team Canada who shows potential to be a good all-around defenceman I think we might have this one too bud.


Smid< Vandermeer, they play similar similar games, get in scraps, but Smid is a great skater and decent puck-mover which gives him the slight advantage. Maybe Smid will live up to expectations however I did not see it last year at all.

Vs versatile Vandeermeer which can play wing as well, and can play more minutes then Smid who has been kind of a bust since he came to Edmonton IMO

Staios=Sarich, they are both similar as well, both physical, good leaders, play defense-first game, but are adequate puck-movers and not the most mobile.

I am not sold on all of Sarich's game but he has a significant physical upside on Staios just ask Marleau's face. Staios is good but I would take Sarich 9 out of 10 times in this case.

So how do you say you have a significant edge defensively?
Thats how. Seriously the Flames are better on this end, in fact I think we have one of the Best D-core in the league, and one of the meanest too.

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Old
07-04-2008, 10:27 AM
  #14
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Originally Posted by TheLastoftheBest11 View Post
In goal yes, not much on Defense.

Souray> Regehr since Regehr has like hardly any offensive talent. They both play similar styles and are adequate puck-movers

Visnovsky=Phaneuf, Both have great shots, Lubos a great puck-mover/Mobile, Phaneuf is very raw and physical, both are improving defensively and Lubos known to throw some good hits.

Gilbert> Aucoin, I would prefer Gilbert anyday over Aucoin, Gilbert is young has tremendous upside, Solid Puck-mover. Aucoin is on a steady decline and is no longer an impact defenseman

Grebeshkov>Giordano, Its hard to compare these two, however I would say both are solid puck-movers and can play against some tough opposition. Giordano displays some good puck-movement and is mobile, Grebs has great Puck-moving skills and skating ability, he can also play physical and can play in all game situations. Much Like Visnovksy and Gilbert in that sense, but not as talented nor statistical. Grebs is much more reliable however.

Smid> Vandermeer, they play similar similar games, get in scraps, but Smid is a great skater and decent puck-mover which gives him the slight advantage.

Staios=Sarich, they are both similar as well, both physical, good leaders, play defense-first game, but are adequate puck-movers and not the most mobile.

So how do you say you have a significant edge defensively?
First, you overstate the productivity and ability of half of the Oilers defensemen. The Oilers defensive corps is improving but it isn't an elite group. Meanwhile, the Flames have 2 elite defensemen (Phaneuf and Regehr) who would be #1 guys on 2/3s of NHL teams.

Phaneuf vs. Visnovsky

Phaneuf is by far and away the best defenseman of the lot. At 23, he's already a Norris Trophy candidate. Visnovsky is a better passer than Phaneuf, but Phaneuf has a better shot, is a more physical player, and is a better defensive player. It's not even close.

Regehr vs. Souray

Souray has the advantage offensively on Regehr, but Souray is a huge liability on defense. He is not a very good defensive player, and this is from watching him several times a year when he played in Montreal. His defensive positioning is very poor and he doesn't use his size very well. His offensive game is also highly overrated, as he has a great shot but is just an average passer and stickhandler.

Regehr won't wow people with his offensive skills, but he's one of the few shutdown defensemen in the NHL. There's a reason why he's played on a couple of Canadian national teams and likely will again represent Canada at the Olympics because of his physical and defensive play.

At best, Souray and Regehr is a split decision since they are two different player. But I'll take Regehr since a defenseman's primary job is to defend his own end.

Gilbert vs. Aucoin

Over the long haul, I, too, would take Gilbert over Aucoin. At this point in time, however, they're both about even in skill and ability. Gilbert definitely has much more longer-term potential.

Staios vs. Sarich

I would agree they are similar players and this is a draw. .

Grebeshkov vs Giordano

This is another draw. I really don't think highly of either one.

Smid vs. Vandermeer

Smid isn't an overly physical player. He struggles in his own end at times, and I question is overall hockey sense. He has the edge over Vandermeer on the offensive side, but he hasn't been able to produce the offensive numbers that were expected from him.

Vandermeer is the better defensive player and more physical. Take your pick of the two, but I would give a very slight edge to Vandermeer.

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Old
07-04-2008, 10:28 AM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLastoftheBest11 View Post

Brule can play physical, has speed, has a ton of years to improve, great hands and great offensive instincts.

Hes pretty much a rich man's Glencross who can potentially end up with 30-40 Points playing with those two next year.

It's true Brule has not shown the potential he was "supposed" to have. I was never sold on him when he was out west here I think he will end up being on you 4th line, maybe the AHL will be good for him this year.

Edmontons forwards>Calgarys forwards

I agree, as of right now we need to fill a hole left by Nolan and Huselius, if we some how get another top 6 forward then I would say Calgary is better due to the fact we actually have top end talent.

Edmontons Defense=Calgarys Defense

No, not even close, see above.

Edmontons Goaltending<<<<Calgarys goaltending
Were not oiler fans saying the same thing last year too?

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07-04-2008, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLastoftheBest11 View Post
Better third line as well.

Schremp,Brule and Cogliano= Adept Speed,Skill and goal-scoring.

They are better than the flames third line, since both Cogliano and Brule are very young and are said to have sound two-way play.


The Flames have a better top line because of Iginla, even that I think that Gagner/Hemsky have the potential to be 100 Point guys in their prime playing with each other.

Cole=Camalleri
Hemsky>Langkow
Gagner (in his prime)= Iginla

Gagner had a 18 yr old rookie season of 49/79= .62 PPG
Iginla had a 19 yr old rookie season of 50/82= .61 PPG

Very similar numbers.

Except Gagner's going to be a dynamic Playmaker, Iginla is a dynamic power forward.
Please don't make me laugh. Iginla has won a scoring title and 2 Maurice Richard trophies, and has been nominated for the Hart 2 twice and nearly won the Calder as well. I also believe he will captain or play a strong leadership role in 2010 for the Olympic team. Gagner will be a good player but Iginla he will never be. Iggy is not big but he hits, fights, stands up for teammates and is the ideal hockey player.

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07-04-2008, 10:39 AM
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I also would not be too surprised if Cole did not work out in edmonton,
as he seems to shy away from hits now and looks uncomfortable with physical hockey these days IMO. Great division to play in,

I think the oilers are over-rating themselves a bit too much here.

I mean I love Sam I think he is going to be a great player but Edmonton lacks top end talent can any of there lines get even close to 110 goals? I doubt it. It's funny as they see a moment of weakness in JULY in the off-season and we are bombarded by oiler fans who actually think they are contenders and that we will miss playoff.

I can almost gaurentee that for a 3rd season in a row we will beat the oilers in the series and we will place higher then them in the standings.

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07-04-2008, 10:52 AM
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That Oiler fan needs to give his head a shake and not over rate his team like that.

Yes, Gagner produces as an 18 year old but rarely do players do that. Schremp was drafted at least 3 years ago and still hasn't cracked the Oilers lineup. Do I smell another Pavel Brendl?

As for Brule, he was worth the gamble but never was the same since Hamrlik broke his sternum as an 18 year old.

Visnovsky is better than Phaneuf in your dreams. Phaneuf outscores him on a defensive minded team and also bring the physical and leadership attributes to an improving defensive game where he plays 27 minutes a night. There is no comparison here.

Regehr and Souray may be a saw off but they are different players. Regehr is a stud defensively that lacks some speed and ability whereas Souray doesn't match Regehr's physical or defensive play but makes up for it with offense and a booming shot.

Sarich and Staois are a draw, as are Giordano and Grebeshkov because they're unproven.

I would take Gilbert over Aucoin simply because of age, but Aucoin isn't that bad and I think he produced 40 points last year. Smid, much like Schremp, has never lived up to expectations but he still has the tools. He is better than Vandermeer but at this point we're comparing 6th defenseman. You can have this one, too.

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07-04-2008, 10:58 AM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Classy Iggy View Post
I also would not be too surprised if Cole did not work out in edmonton,
as he seems to shy away from hits now and looks uncomfortable with physical hockey these days IMO. Great division to play in,

I think the oilers are over-rating themselves a bit too much here.

I mean I love Sam I think he is going to be a great player but Edmonton lacks top end talent can any of there lines get even close to 110 goals? I doubt it. It's funny as they see a moment of weakness in JULY in the off-season and we are bombarded by oiler fans who actually think they are contenders and that we will miss playoff.

I can almost gaurentee that for a 3rd season in a row we will beat the oilers in the series and we will place higher then them in the standings.

No we aren't, so you are saying that Sam Gagner and Ales Hemsky don't have the potential to be 100 point guys, my gosh you dont watch Oilers Games.

The Defense thing I am still sticking with what i said, Regehr I don't see as much of an upgrade on Souray. Souray is not a defensive liability, the entire Montreal team sucked 5x5 in 06-07, even Saku Koivu was a -21. SO I would say that this is even

Phaneuf is being vastly overrated by flames fans, how can you say that hes superior to Lubo? Lubo is the better offensive player if you exaine their stats after the lockout, since thats when Phaneuf entered the league. Yes Phaneuf is better physically and plays the game with more of an edge, but Lubos is probably a better positional defenseman and more experienced. Lubo also has a great personality on/off the ice, people have quoted Phaneuf as a "Bonehead" So I would say it is even

Gilbert is a better defenseman than Adrian Aucoin presently, but everyone thinks that they are even players

Grebeshkov is a better defenseman than Giordano, ask anyone who has seen them play.

I take back that asessment of Smid and Vandermeer, but Im not going to say Vandermeer is any better.

Staios and Sarich is a draw.

You guys overrate your Defense IMO, because I dont see them as an elite core, neither do I see the Oil having an elite core either.

And by saying you have top-end talent offensively, you have one player.

We have two who could hit 100 Points, and both are pretty young.

You guys are not a top-six forward from matching us, and I still think we will add one more top-sixer such as Demitra,Nagy from the comments from Katz/Lowe

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07-04-2008, 11:05 AM
  #20
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Originally Posted by Cactus Jack View Post
That Oiler fan needs to give his head a shake and not over rate his team like that.

Yes, Gagner produces as an 18 year old but rarely do players do that. Schremp was drafted at least 3 years ago and still hasn't cracked the Oilers lineup. Do I smell another Pavel Brendl?

As for Brule, he was worth the gamble but never was the same since Hamrlik broke his sternum as an 18 year old.

Visnovsky is better than Phaneuf in your dreams. Phaneuf outscores him on a defensive minded team and also bring the physical and leadership attributes to an improving defensive game where he plays 27 minutes a night. There is no comparison here.

Regehr and Souray may be a saw off but they are different players. Regehr is a stud defensively that lacks some speed and ability whereas Souray doesn't match

Regehr's physical or defensive play but makes up for it with offense and a booming shot.

Sarich and Staois are a draw, as are Giordano and Grebeshkov because they're unproven.

I would take Gilbert over Aucoin simply because of age, but Aucoin isn't that bad and I think he produced 40 points last year. Smid, much like Schremp, has never lived up to expectations but he still has the tools. He is better than Vandermeer but at this point we're comparing 6th defenseman. You can have this one, too.
I can agree with you about the Defense thing, we think pretty similar except for the fact you think Phaneuf is light years ahead. Lubo plays 23-25 Minutes a night and on the worst team in the NHL, he put up 41 Points.

Phaneuf last three years (Or should I say 1st three years):

49 Points in 82 games
50 Points in 82 games
60 Points in 82 Games

PPG= .65

Lubos last three years:

67 points in 80 games
58 Points in 69 games
41 points in 82 Games

PPG= .72

Dion is more physical for sure, but Lubos the much better puck-mover.

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07-04-2008, 11:19 AM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLastoftheBest11 View Post
Phaneuf last three years (Or should I say 1st three years):

49 Points in 82 games
50 Points in 82 games
60 Points in 82 Games

PPG= .65

Lubos last three years:

67 points in 80 games
58 Points in 69 games
41 points in 82 Games

PPG= .72

Dion is more physical for sure, but Lubos the much better puck-mover.
I couldn't care less about this measuring competition you guys are having in this thread.

But as a Flames fan I do enjoy the trends on Dion and Lubomir in terms of offensive production. In 3 years Dion has gone from trailing Visnovsky by 18 points to leading him by 19. That's heartwarming.

Now carry on measuring.

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07-04-2008, 11:27 AM
  #22
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Originally Posted by GiganticSnake View Post
I couldn't care less about this measuring competition you guys are having in this thread.

But as a Flames fan I do enjoy the trends on Dion and Lubomir in terms of offensive production. In 3 years Dion has gone from trailing Visnovsky by 18 points to leading him by 19. That's heartwarming.

Now carry on measuring.
Lubo can hit 50 Points again if he plays the right side on the pp, he even said that that was the primary reason for the season last year.


Why is Sam Gagner so underrated on every board? He's already made strides around the league as a fantastic player and everyone says he has no chance of being as good as Iginla

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07-04-2008, 11:29 AM
  #23
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Originally Posted by TheLastoftheBest11 View Post
No we aren't, so you are saying that Sam Gagner and Ales Hemsky don't have the potential to be 100 point guys, my gosh you dont watch Oilers Games.

The Defense thing I am still sticking with what i said, Regehr I don't see as much of an upgrade on Souray. Souray is not a defensive liability, the entire Montreal team sucked 5x5 in 06-07, even Saku Koivu was a -21. SO I would say that this is even

Phaneuf is being vastly overrated by flames fans, how can you say that hes superior to Lubo? Lubo is the better offensive player if you exaine their stats after the lockout, since thats when Phaneuf entered the league. Yes Phaneuf is better physically and plays the game with more of an edge, but Lubos is probably a better positional defenseman and more experienced. Lubo also has a great personality on/off the ice, people have quoted Phaneuf as a "Bonehead" So I would say it is even

Gilbert is a better defenseman than Adrian Aucoin presently, but everyone thinks that they are even players

Grebeshkov is a better defenseman than Giordano, ask anyone who has seen them play.

I take back that asessment of Smid and Vandermeer, but Im not going to say Vandermeer is any better.

Staios and Sarich is a draw.

You guys overrate your Defense IMO, because I dont see them as an elite core, neither do I see the Oil having an elite core either.

And by saying you have top-end talent offensively, you have one player.

We have two who could hit 100 Points, and both are pretty young.

You guys are not a top-six forward from matching us, and I still think we will add one more top-sixer such as Demitra,Nagy from the comments from Katz/Lowe
You do realize that your analysis is hypocritical.

On the one hand, you say that because Gagner is young and has great potential, he's equal to Iginla. You made similar arguments on Brule, Schremp, and Smid in that their potential makes them better players than the likes of Langkow, Vandermeer, etc.

But then you say that Visnovsky is a better player that Phaneuf because Phaneuf is still "raw and unproven". You completely ignore Phaneuf's potential in this comparision. Heck, you completely ignored the fact that Phaneuf finished as the runner-up to Lidstrom for the Norris Trophy while Visnovsky has never come close to being a finalist. You also ignore that Visnosky will be 32 in August while Phaneuf is only 23, yet producing like a 10-year veteran.

BTW, if you look at the last three years, Visnovsky has outproduced Phaneuf by a total of 6 points. That's not a significant difference, and Phaneuf outscored Visnovsky by 19 points this past season.

As for Souray, it is not a coincidence that the Habs significantly improved defensively with Souray being replaced by the more responsible Roman Hamrlik. The Habs basically kept the same team together, yet improved dramatically. Price's addition help, although the Habs were much improved defensively with Huet handling the starter's job for most of the season.

It's also interesting to note that Souray has only been a "plus" player in 4 out of 10 seasons and he's a career -34. That's not a coincidence.

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07-04-2008, 11:36 AM
  #24
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Originally Posted by TheLastoftheBest11 View Post
No we aren't, so you are saying that Sam Gagner and Ales Hemsky don't have the potential to be 100 point guys, my gosh you dont watch Oilers Games.

The Defense thing I am still sticking with what i said, Regehr I don't see as much of an upgrade on Souray. Souray is not a defensive liability, the entire Montreal team sucked 5x5 in 06-07, even Saku Koivu was a -21. SO I would say that this is even

Phaneuf is being vastly overrated by flames fans, how can you say that hes superior to Lubo? Lubo is the better offensive player if you exaine their stats after the lockout, since thats when Phaneuf entered the league. Yes Phaneuf is better physically and plays the game with more of an edge, but Lubos is probably a better positional defenseman and more experienced. Lubo also has a great personality on/off the ice, people have quoted Phaneuf as a "Bonehead" So I would say it is even

Gilbert is a better defenseman than Adrian Aucoin presently, but everyone thinks that they are even players

Grebeshkov is a better defenseman than Giordano, ask anyone who has seen them play.

I take back that asessment of Smid and Vandermeer, but Im not going to say Vandermeer is any better.

Staios and Sarich is a draw.

You guys overrate your Defense IMO, because I dont see them as an elite core, neither do I see the Oil having an elite core either.

And by saying you have top-end talent offensively, you have one player.

We have two who could hit 100 Points, and both are pretty young.

You guys are not a top-six forward from matching us, and I still think we will add one more top-sixer such as Demitra,Nagy from the comments from Katz/Lowe
I like Visnovsky, and I hope he finds his game again with the Oilers, but to say he outscored Phaneuf since the lockout is a bit of a misnomer.

Lubo has progressively dropped in points since then and Phaneuf has progressively increased, I don't want to play the what have you done for me lately card, as Lubo certainly has the talent to regain some of his past levels and playing on a better team will help, but thats still up in the air, I'd say, at least offensively, that Phaneuf has got Lubo beat, and being that they both have their issues defensively, I'll take Phaneuf, plus he has insane upward potential still. As for off the ice? I think Phaneuf is just fine, thats really a stretch to diss Phaneuf IMO.

Also, Gagner has 100 point potential, I agree, just not yet, and considering that for all intents and purposes Iginla has just had back to back 100 point seasons (with 94 in 70 and then 98 in 82) I would say that Sam still has a ways to go yet, but I could see him getting there, mind you he is simply not even close yet, so its irrelevant in discussing the team for next year. I could see Hemsky hitting 90 points, maybe 100 in an spike year, I think Gagner will be better in the long run. But Hemsky is simply not the player that Iginla is looking at them overall, Iginla clearly brings more IMO.

WRT Souray vs. Regehr, I'd take Reg every day, Souray had a huge year two years ago to be sure, and Souray is a nice PKer, he is not good at 5x5 though, never has been, the -28 was just a one year thing, but otherwise he has been far from solid at 5x5 during his career. Unless he proves he can get 60+ points again and just be a complete PP monster and that the one year wasn't an anomaly, I will always take Regehr.

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Old
07-04-2008, 11:38 AM
  #25
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Originally Posted by TheLastoftheBest11 View Post
Why is Sam Gagner so underrated on every board? He's already made strides around the league as a fantastic player and everyone says he has no chance of being as good as Iginla
Because you compare him to a top 5 forward in the league after 1 season, uh, maybe its that. He's good, could be great but for the love of God man give it a little time.

Player by player assessment (Player on team 1>Player on team 2, therefore team 1 wins) being used to predict the better team is one of the densest things I've ever seen regarding discussing hockey. It disregards team concepts, such as team chemistry, leadership, and accountability for performance. This thread makes my eyes bleed.

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