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Sather: Rangers to change their style of play

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Old
07-03-2008, 11:38 PM
  #26
FLYLine24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Save By Richter View Post
You can't possibly not see the point.

Renney's going to do whatever is best to win with the roster given to him. Jagr was his best offensive player, and played a certain style of hockey with the puck. It would be stupid for Renney to force him to change. It would hurt the team.

Once Jagr's contract was up, the team saw the opportunity to move on and build the roster more towards their style. But with Jagr on the roster, of course they were going to cater to Jagr offensively. He was their best player and they wanted to put him in the best position to succeed.

It's quite simple.
And how do you know this? By WATCHING the team Jagr played more of a defensive style, he was the first one back on many occasions(something he was NEVER with the Pens or Caps)....he was not playing his game it was VERY obvious he was playing what the coach wanted him to. So I really have no idea what your talking about.

Did you watch the team last season? Or are you just going by what Cap/Pens fan say?

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07-03-2008, 11:42 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by FLYLine88 View Post
And how do you know this? By WATCHING the team Jagr played more of a defensive style, he was the first one back on many occasions(something he was NEVER with the Pens or Caps)....he was not playing his game it was VERY obvious he was playing what the coach wanted him to. So I really have no idea what your talking about.

Did you watch the team last season? Or are you just going by what Cap/Pens fan say?
I'm talking OFFENSIVELY. That's what I said from the beginning. I even said "with the puck" in that post.

Come on, I know you're bummed about losing Jagr. I would be to if the Rangers let my favorite player go. But you're just cherry-picking small parts to try and fit your argument, one that's just coming from emotions (and I don't blame you).

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07-04-2008, 01:43 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by FLYLine88 View Post
And how do you know this? By WATCHING the team Jagr played more of a defensive style, he was the first one back on many occasions(something he was NEVER with the Pens or Caps)....he was not playing his game it was VERY obvious he was playing what the coach wanted him to. So I really have no idea what your talking about.

Did you watch the team last season? Or are you just going by what Cap/Pens fan say?
Aye, Jagr and his patented hooking calls because he was so lazy to get back on defense. Lets not forget those shall we.

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07-04-2008, 03:27 AM
  #29
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Good news. Last year's team was not always the most exciting to watch. Now I'd much rather win a 2-1 Sominex festival than lose a 6-5 up-and-down thriller obviously, but this style that Sather is planning on is definitely a nice change. Zherdev is going to fit this style extremely well.

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07-04-2008, 03:44 AM
  #30
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The change of system really shows what they are trying to grow into and why the recent acquisitions have been made. This system is possible, solely and mainly because of the Rangers Organization feeling comfortable in Lundqvist's ability to stand on his head for many seasons in net.

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07-04-2008, 07:37 AM
  #31
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It's not out of the realm of possibilities that Jagr in some ways handcuffed Reney (and vice versa).

As we have seen with Mess back in the day, some star captains can have a big influence on and off the ice.

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07-04-2008, 07:53 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zestystrat View Post
It's not out of the realm of possibilities that Jagr in some ways handcuffed Reney (and vice versa).

As we have seen with Mess back in the day, some star captains can have a big influence on and off the ice.

Sooooooooo the Prague Rangers eh........not anymore

By my count the only survivors are Rozi and Prucha............

Also most of the tam is North American

off the top of my head

Swedes- Lundqvist, Naslund, Sjostrom, Jamtin
Czechs- Rozsival, Prucha
Russian- Zherdev, Kalinin

American- Gomez, Drury, Dubinsky, Callahan, Fritsche, Rissmiller,Hollweg

Cdn- Redden, Girardi,Staal,Dawes, Betts,Voros, Valliquette, Orr,

Just a observation

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07-04-2008, 08:41 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Vitto79 View Post

Russian- Zherdev, Kalinin
Zherdev isn't Russian.

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Old
07-04-2008, 09:08 AM
  #34
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As long as they continue to play solid defensive hockey as well, I'm all for it

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07-04-2008, 09:28 AM
  #35
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Zherdev is Ukranian

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07-04-2008, 09:28 AM
  #36
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This change is the change the team has been building towards since the trade deadline of '04. Every single player the Rangers have drafted has been in this mindset. This has been coming even without the Zherdev and Naslund acquisitions.

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07-04-2008, 09:34 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
This change is the change the team has been building towards since the trade deadline of '04. Every single player the Rangers have drafted has been in this mindset. This has been coming even without the Zherdev and Naslund acquisitions.
Thank you...I've been saying this for two days now. Last year was a prime example of the friction between what the Rangers were, and what the brass envisioned this team was going to be. I loved Jagr, and even would have been happy seeing him back for another year. But, for anyone who's watched the moves the Rangers have made since 2004, this was inevitable. Believe it or not, Naslund, and even moreso, Zherdev and Redden fit Renney's system better. It's not about Naslund replacing Jagr's presence in the lineup. it's about having the whole team on one page when it comes to the approach. It's why Shanny won't/shouldn't be back, either.

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07-04-2008, 09:45 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Save By Richter View Post
I don't think this is a matter of Renney buying into it. This is the system he's wanted to play from the beginning, but they had to wait until Jagr was gone to implement it.
I don't know about this.

Jagr is the offensive minded player - Renney is the defensive minded coach.

Naslund says that the NYR are looking to play the kind of game that won Detroit the Stanley Cup. Oh, does he mean the puck control game between Zetterberg and Datsyuk? That's funny, b/c that's exactly what NYR had with Straka, Nylander and Jagr - and they're all gone now.

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07-04-2008, 10:00 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FLYLine88 View Post
And once again I ask..why? Was he holding a gun to Renneys head?

He is NOT the coach. Is renney so weak he has to give into what jagr wants and cant coach it how he wants?


If so then Renney needs to get the hell out. No need for a coach who cant think for himself.
I love Jagr, wanted to cry when we signed naslund because I knew it meant JJ wasnt coming back. But we have to be honest, Renney had to walk a fine line with Jagr. JJ had a rep for quitting on teams and coaches if he didnt get what he wanted. Renney did a wonderful job by employeeing an ideal of mutual respect between himself and Jags and it worked out great for us. Did jagr have a gun to renneys head, NO, but could he have been the biggest thorn Renney ever had in his side, YES. Jags and Renney are both class acts in my opinion and they compromised on alot of things, but if renney would have forced jagrs hand we could have had one very disgruntled superstar...
So inline with this thread I think the offense can change a bit from its jagrcentric past few years (which i had no problem with cus jagr was good enough to have a jagrcentric offense). I'm not bashing JJ at all, but his departure opens up so many different line possibilities, powerplay units and strangely enough a more open offensive system (one not based on puck control, but transition and speed). Jagrs line would dominate for sure, but they trap the defense in their own zone for minutes at a time and come away with 1 shot, which always drove me nuts...
No one controls the play Jags, not sid, ovechkin, malkin, none of them can control the puck like JJ and I'm gonna miss that like crazy, but its time we turned the team over to the two centers we paid 15 mill a year for, I believe they've earned their shot at leadership here....

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07-04-2008, 11:04 AM
  #40
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Seriously. I had a long post earlier this year where I described the Rangers as having multiple personality syndrome (or whatever it's called - I seem to recall another poster correcting my terminology in the thread) and this is exactly what I was talking about. Jagr and his crew played one way, the guys who came up through the system after the 04 purge + the Rangers' big FA acquisitions last offseason clearly play another way (and to be clear, I'm talking about on OFFENSE here).

The Jagr faction (for lack of a better name - not trying to make it contentious) likes to slow it down, peel off at the blue line, wait for the play to develop and then make their move. The Drury/Gomez/Callahan/etc. group likes to attack full force to the net with give and go plays. The first style relies on moving against the grain, making pretty plays in traffic against stationary D and - let's face it - Jagr's unique (and unfortunately declining) ability to cut through the middle to draw 1-3 defenders and then either shed them for the shot or the pass to the open man. The second relies on counter-attacking, speed around the edges, shooting before the defense is set and crashing the net for rebounds.

There was going to be internal friction and disjointed play as long as that was going on - and in many ways I think the fact that we had people pulling in different directions was the real lack of "chemistry" the team experienced for much of last year. I think that the fact that we now have a single identity will lead to a much more cohesive group, much more quickly.

This is not an attack on Jagr - as I posted in another thread, he single-handedly made the Rangers relevant after a decade of irrelevance. I think his brief tenure here was one of the best we've ever seen, short as it was. But his presence on the team created an internal division - at least as regards style of play. That kind of division can be overcome and you can win against teams with lesser talent in the regular season and in the first few rounds of the POs, but it is a barrier that comes into play when you're trying to take the final few steps to a championship. It's time to move on - it's necessary if we want to win the Cup any time soon.


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07-04-2008, 11:07 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
Seriously. I had a long post earlier this year where I described the Rangers as having multiple personality syndrome (or whatever it's called - I seem to recall another poster correcting my terminology in the thread) and this is exactly what I was talking about. Jagr and his crew played one way, the guys who came up through the system after the 04 purge + the Rangers' big FA acquisitions last offseason clearly play another way (and to be clear, I'm talking about on OFFENSE here).

The Jagr faction (for lack of a better name - not trying to make it contentious) likes to slow it down, peel off at the blue line, wait for the play to develop and then make their move. The Drury/Gomez/Callahan/etc. group likes to attack full force to the net with give and go plays. The first style relies on moving against the grain, making pretty plays in traffic against stationary D and - let's face it - Jagr's unique (and unfortunately declining) ability to cut through the middle to draw 1-3 defenders and then either shed them for the shot or the pass to the open man. The second relies on counter-attacking, speed around the edges, shooting before the defense is set and crashing the net for rebounds.

There was going to be internal friction and disjointed play as long as that was going on - and in many ways I think the fact that we had people pulling in different directions were the real lack of "chemistry" the team experienced for much of last year. I think that the fact that we now have a single identity will lead to a much more cohesive group, much more quickly.

This is not an attack on Jagr - as I posted in another thread, he single-handedly made the Rangers relevant after a decade of irrelevance. I think his brief tenure here was one of the best we've ever seen, brief as it was. That kind of division can be overcome and you can win against teams with lesser talent in the regular season and in the first few rounds of the POs, but it is a barrier that comes into play when you're trying to take the final few steps to a championship. It's time to move on - it's necessary if we want to win the Cup any time soon.

Nicely put.

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07-04-2008, 11:14 AM
  #42
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Redden...

would've fit on Jagr's Rangers very nicely - moves the puck out of the zone effeciently and smartly. The transition game for the Rangers should be nice. There won't be many battles along the boards, however, and we'll see how that plays out.

Dubi - I didn't see this fine line Renney had to walk. Jagr's reputation was from about five years ago. He matured. I don't remember once seeing him pout. I don't remember any friction between him and players of coaches. Renney cut his PP ice time last season about halfway through the season. What was the result? I think Jagr did quite well from the midway point of the season and into the playoffs. Backchecking? He did plenty of that and was quite effective. Lazy hooking penalties? I think when Jagr was on the ice there was a 'net good'. Czech entourage? Who was part of the posse when he played his last game. Ruca didn't come back. Malik was benched. Prucha didn't play.

I wasn't much of a Jagr fan, but recognize what the Rangers were with and without him. I hope there aren't a heck of a lot of growing pains for this team's two new leaders. They've always been around some guys who would also lead, which includes chipping in points. We'll see.

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07-04-2008, 11:22 AM
  #43
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Brf...

who was really pulling in different directions? When Jagr was out, he played differently than when Gomez was out. I don't see why each line needs to play the same game. It's difficult to get 18 players to play a similar game. You have to tailor your game plan to match the players you have. Fact is, Jagr's style was more effective than everyone else's. So what if he slowed down the game? His line is the only line that struck fear in the opposition, and it was the only line that wore down the opposition physically and mentally. The attack full force too often meant zero sustained pressure. Go up the ice, shoot, go down the ice. Very predictable and a bit easier to defend.

I agree this has been the direction the team has been going - more north-south. More pressure. And personally, that's the type of hockey I prefer. But I can't say that style, when played by the NYRs, was more effective than Jagr's dipsy do, slow down the game, and he didn't even have complementary players to play with him.

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07-04-2008, 11:27 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
who was really pulling in different directions? When Jagr was out, he played differently than when Gomez was out. I don't see why each line needs to play the same game. It's difficult to get 18 players to play a similar game. You have to tailor your game plan to match the players you have.
And I think that is what Renney did. But the ideal IMO is to have everyone playing the same way so that the lines are more interchangeable.

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07-04-2008, 11:30 AM
  #45
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would've fit on Jagr's Rangers very nicely - moves the puck out of the zone effeciently and smartly. The transition game for the Rangers should be nice. There won't be many battles along the boards, however, and we'll see how that plays out.

Dubi - I didn't see this fine line Renney had to walk. Jagr's reputation was from about five years ago. He matured. I don't remember once seeing him pout. I don't remember any friction between him and players of coaches. Renney cut his PP ice time last season about halfway through the season. What was the result? I think Jagr did quite well from the midway point of the season and into the playoffs. Backchecking? He did plenty of that and was quite effective. Lazy hooking penalties? I think when Jagr was on the ice there was a 'net good'. Czech entourage? Who was part of the posse when he played his last game. Ruca didn't come back. Malik was benched. Prucha didn't play.

I wasn't much of a Jagr fan, but recognize what the Rangers were with and without him. I hope there aren't a heck of a lot of growing pains for this team's two new leaders. They've always been around some guys who would also lead, which includes chipping in points. We'll see.
It's needless Jagr bashing.....

The fact is the Rangers have let Jagr go without replacing him....They have replaced shanny and averys production but have done nothing to replace Jagrs production.....But lets get excited because a system that failed for Sathers first 4 years here is about to return!!!

oh man...i mean i wanna be excited about the sytem change i really do...i just think with the people we have here and the lost production it's a little strange to go against what's worked under Renney...We changed most of the key players and we are changing our sytem as well? After we get off to our third bad start in a row because or chemitry/system/scoring issues who do we have on the roster that can step up?

sigh...i am such an optomist (i think most people know this about me)with everything but I'm VERY down on what's gone on here the past year....I think this team has more question marks now after then lockout...

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07-04-2008, 12:11 PM
  #46
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It's needless Jagr bashing.....

The fact is the Rangers have let Jagr go without replacing him....They have replaced shanny and averys production but have done nothing to replace Jagrs production.....But lets get excited because a system that failed for Sathers first 4 years here is about to return!!!

oh man...i mean i wanna be excited about the sytem change i really do...i just think with the people we have here and the lost production it's a little strange to go against what's worked under Renney...We changed most of the key players and we are changing our sytem as well? After we get off to our third bad start in a row because or chemitry/system/scoring issues who do we have on the roster that can step up?

sigh...i am such an optomist (i think most people know this about me)with everything but I'm VERY down on what's gone on here the past year....I think this team has more question marks now after then lockout...
You have to keep in mind that the players the Rangers have now were drafted or signed or traded for based on the system the Rangers have been building for 4 years now. This is going to be the first season in which we see what a rebuild is really like. I don't mean the beginning of the rebuild, when the team sucks. I mean the middle part of the rebuild when the team is finding it's identity while being a competitive group. Not elite, but not mediocre either.

Let me put it to you this way. I think that the last two years' playoff exits told the Rangers management that the type of team that they were just wasn't going to win them a Cup. Why prolong the existence of a team that you don't believe is going to reach the level you want it to? Of course, neither is this team this year. It'd take every single player on the Rangers playing at full potential for the whole season, including the playoffs, to make them a Cup contender this year. That's not pessimism or optimism, it's reality. However, the choice this offseason was as follows: continue down the same path of the team you don't believe is going to win a Cup or start your team down a path you believe will win a Cup in the future. Which would you choose? Keep in mind that you can put together a roster that will compete on the same relative level as you do with both options.

The free agent market wasn't exactly stellar, and I think two things are pretty obvious. Number one, the only elite winger available was offered a contract and went another direction. Number two, this team isn't the Penguins, who are built from the forwards back. It's built from the goal out. That means improving your defense. The Rangers probably have the best top 4 group in the conference right now, even if they don't have that one amazing offensive force back there.

This is a team in transition still and will only get more solid as the years pass.

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07-04-2008, 12:24 PM
  #47
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The changes in terms of style defenitly mostly will be in terms of personell -- like you can't play a high tempo style with slow players, like that explains itself basically. Nor without D's who can get the puck to the forwards.

That said, I do hope and think that small adjustments will be made and that we will challenge the other team more on their defensive blueline -- instead of playing it safe there.

Anyones opinions is worth as much, but I personally think the talk about NYR beeing defensive minded and what not is just pure and utter BS. Jagr had a problem with Renney's style? That certainly notices when he broke the scoring record in NY... Jagrs unit couldn't controll the puck, and when you don't got the puck you have to play defense. JJ's first 2 seasons here they had the puck all the time, thats the diffrence.

Renney had his team taking pretty big risks in terms of playing a offensive puck possesion game. But the problems where that Drury wasn't comfy in that role, Gomez didn't get any support on the 2nd line really.

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07-04-2008, 12:28 PM
  #48
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We obviously had big chemistry/construction problems on many of the lines -- its ridiculos to expect a coach to be able to coach his team so well in terms of X and O's so that they not only can overcome that but also face teams who in principle is more talented then them to start with.

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07-04-2008, 03:17 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
Seriously. I had a long post earlier this year where I described the Rangers as having multiple personality syndrome (or whatever it's called - I seem to recall another poster correcting my terminology in the thread) and this is exactly what I was talking about. Jagr and his crew played one way, the guys who came up through the system after the 04 purge + the Rangers' big FA acquisitions last offseason clearly play another way (and to be clear, I'm talking about on OFFENSE here).

The Jagr faction (for lack of a better name - not trying to make it contentious) likes to slow it down, peel off at the blue line, wait for the play to develop and then make their move. The Drury/Gomez/Callahan/etc. group likes to attack full force to the net with give and go plays. The first style relies on moving against the grain, making pretty plays in traffic against stationary D and - let's face it - Jagr's unique (and unfortunately declining) ability to cut through the middle to draw 1-3 defenders and then either shed them for the shot or the pass to the open man. The second relies on counter-attacking, speed around the edges, shooting before the defense is set and crashing the net for rebounds.

There was going to be internal friction and disjointed play as long as that was going on - and in many ways I think the fact that we had people pulling in different directions was the real lack of "chemistry" the team experienced for much of last year. I think that the fact that we now have a single identity will lead to a much more cohesive group, much more quickly.

This is not an attack on Jagr - as I posted in another thread, he single-handedly made the Rangers relevant after a decade of irrelevance. I think his brief tenure here was one of the best we've ever seen, short as it was. But his presence on the team created an internal division - at least as regards style of play. That kind of division can be overcome and you can win against teams with lesser talent in the regular season and in the first few rounds of the POs, but it is a barrier that comes into play when you're trying to take the final few steps to a championship. It's time to move on - it's necessary if we want to win the Cup any time soon.
i posted the same thing a couple of times during the season.......multiple personalities....

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07-04-2008, 03:41 PM
  #50
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The players they have now, should fit the style of play that the coach expects of them. If they can get it together in camp like their supposed to and then execute it on ice on a nightly basis we should be in for some good hockey. The team may need a bit of tweeking, but they have enough 3/4th liners to trade for a missing cog. Others will have to produce, now that Jagrs production will be missed. You hope that a few can step up and net more than they did last season.

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