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Old
07-07-2008, 08:18 AM
  #76
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Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
Your boundless optimism made my morning, 94.
I Rangerland it's been called "realism"

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07-07-2008, 08:35 AM
  #77
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I Rangerland it's been called "realism"
In finance, there's something called scenario analysis. It's where you take a forecasted set of financial statements and change the underlying assumptions to see what happens in the best case scenario, worst case scenario and as many layers in between as suits you. (Hence the name.) You basically forecast EVERYTHING as turning out badly and give no credit for anything possibly turning out right (for example AA/Sangs forcing their way on to the team out of camp, Dubi/Fritsche busting out, etc.). That's the very definition of worst case scenario. Even though it may turn out that way (although I certainly hope not), it ain't "realism".

The only way it could turn out worse is if you predicted that Lundqvist, inspired by Sean Avery, suddenly retired in the middle of the season to pursue a modeling career.

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07-07-2008, 08:35 AM
  #78
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It's nice to see Renney getting the team he wants. I don't think he's ever been full of excuses. If anything, he should be commended for making due with what he had under the circumstances. Everyone had us as favorites to win the conference or even the Cup this year because of our offensive lineup. However, when things weren't working out, he turned a team with 'no defense to speak of' into one of the best defensive teams in the league. That's impressive no matter how you look at it.

Renney is a coach that knows where he wants to go with the team, but more importantly, knows what he has to work with. This isn't a case of throwing money at big names and hoping they work; each of these guys that were brought in fit the system he's working towards. Fast forwards with a lot of individual skill, puck moving defensemen and a goalie who can stand on his head if need be.

Personally, I think we're one top-six forward away from competing for the Eastern Conference title.

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07-07-2008, 08:58 AM
  #79
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I've always felt that the Rangers wanted to become more like the 2006-2007 Buffalo Sabres, once Jagr left.

They're looking to become a fast, up tempo team with a good mix of skill, but no one big superstar that dominates the team. Hopefully that works out, and they don't collapse like the Sabres did

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07-07-2008, 08:59 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
It's nice to see Renney getting the team he wants. I don't think he's ever been full of excuses. If anything, he should be commended for making due with what he had under the circumstances. Everyone had us as favorites to win the conference or even the Cup this year because of our offensive lineup. However, when things weren't working out, he turned a team with 'no defense to speak of' into one of the best defensive teams in the league. That's impressive no matter how you look at it.
While I think you'll get some flack for saying he was "making due with what he had" with Jags, Druy, Gomez, hank etc., I do agree with you.

Given his assets, he had them play in a way that wouldn’t handcuff them too much while making sure defense was a priority (call it a left wing lock, trap, whatever).

I think when you see the teams that are successful or are better than you in any aspect of your game, you need to recognize and address that.

We’d be pissed if the staff didn’t do that.

In the end I don't weep b/c Jags is gone b/c in the end it was about business – from everyone’s perspective.


Last edited by zestystrat: 07-07-2008 at 09:57 AM.
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07-07-2008, 09:51 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
You basically forecast EVERYTHING as turning out badly and give no credit for anything possibly turning out right Even though it may turn out that way (although I certainly hope not), it ain't "realism".
Aren't you a Ranger fan? Your username says that... How one can be optimistic given a history is beyond me.

When was the last time UFA signing here was an immediate (i.e. upcoming season) success? What prospect turned out to be a fulfillment of great predictions? Straka (UFA)and Staal (prospect) is all we got for the recent and not so recent past. The rest was a pure luck coming out of the blue in shape of Lundqvist, Prucha, Callahan, Dubinski and others that I may miss. The point here that year after year Sather's summer work is being the consistent detriment. Renney spends half of the season to absorb the "work of the genius." This time it will be too much to handle.

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07-07-2008, 10:38 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
I've always felt that the Rangers wanted to become more like the 2006-2007 Buffalo Sabres, once Jagr left.

They're looking to become a fast, up tempo team with a good mix of skill, but no one big superstar that dominates the team. Hopefully that works out, and they don't collapse like the Sabres did
Good point. This thought has crossed my mind once or twice before, as well. I think it especially applies to the Drury situation.

I think they want to give Drury the same kind of small, speedy and talented wings to play with that he had in Buffalo, when he was most successful.

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07-07-2008, 10:41 AM
  #83
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Naslund is not an upgrade over jagr. Simply not going to happen....

I am not sure Drury can providethe leadership it if he is not scoring the big goals.
We all believed that Drury is that man to be captain when we signed him. Hopefully that is still the case...but I have doubts now.

We have also lost one of the grittiest hardest working wingers in the league and no I am not talking about Avery. talking about adding speed. naslund is not faster than Jagr and neither Zherdev, Naslund nor Redden are faster than Straka was.

All of this is just window dressing.

Fact remains that Slats didn't have it in him to offer Jags a 2 year contract with option. and he did offer a 2 year contract to Naslund.

And rather than tweek here and there we now have retooled the rig. Where is the
guarantee that Naslund and Gomez will get on. Naslund played well with the twins.
He doesn't have them here.

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07-07-2008, 10:41 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
"It's an exciting time and I'm good with it," Renney told the Daily News. "Obviously, I'm disappointed about certain people. But I can't dwell on that.
So which "people" is Renney disappointed about?

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07-07-2008, 10:43 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by 94now View Post
Aren't you a Ranger fan? Your username says that... How one can be optimistic given a history is beyond me.
Uh, 'cause I'm 37 and remember 93-94? 'Cause I am very impressed with the progress since '04?

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Originally Posted by 94now View Post
When was the last time UFA signing here was an immediate (i.e. upcoming season) success? What prospect turned out to be a fulfillment of great predictions? Straka (UFA)and Staal (prospect) is all we got for the recent and not so recent past. The rest was a pure luck coming out of the blue in shape of Lundqvist, Prucha, Callahan, Dubinski and others that I may miss. The point here that year after year Sather's summer work is being the consistent detriment. Renney spends half of the season to absorb the "work of the genius." This time it will be too much to handle.
C'mon 94, you listed FIVE guys now playing meaningful roles with the team and then call it a fluke. (And you missed Dawes, the recently traded Tyutin, Girardi and all the guys we'll see over the next two years.) What kinda return would he have to generate to actually get credit for drafting/developing well? I mean seriously - talk about glass half-empty...

More to the point, if you're so unimpressed with the track record and where the team is now... what would you have liked to see him do differently?

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07-07-2008, 10:45 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
I've always felt that the Rangers wanted to become more like the 2006-2007 Buffalo Sabres, once Jagr left.

They're looking to become a fast, up tempo team with a good mix of skill, but no one big superstar that dominates the team. Hopefully that works out, and they don't collapse like the Sabres did
a good regular season team but not a team to win the cup. If Buffalo had a Superstar player they would have been in the finals at least. They were missing that one player who could dominate, and control a game. Something this Ranger team is still missing. there is no one player who could just take over the game, or series and be "the man." Too many complimentary players w/ no superstar to compliment.

also I think people are forgetting the fact that we have WAY too much roster turnover again this season. I think they will eventually mesh, but I have a feeling that we will suck until about the all-star break due to everybody trying to feel out each other's games. Especially since this is all happeneing on the top two lines. Plus there is the Renney factor of finding something that works, and than changing it. We are in transition year part two, and again i think we will be lucky just to make the playoffs. We have way too many ifs, and hopefully's on the top six.

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07-07-2008, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by 94now View Post
softmore letdown.
Stopped reading after that.

That's really bad.

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07-07-2008, 11:03 AM
  #88
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trx...

I'm a bit confused...you're saying Renney made due with what he had...are you talking about just last season or are you talking about the last three seasons? I'm sure there are tons of NHL coaches, past and present, who would've loved to have coached the Rangers of the last three years which featured some pretty decent lineups, including one that had a 54 goal scorer.

And which NYR team had no defense to speak of? The defense didn't have the same numbers as last season, but three years ago it was ranked 4th in the league and actually gave up less goals at 5-on-5. The prior season they ranked 9th (both at 2.57 goals against compared with 2.32 last season). While it improved, I wouldn't say there was no defense to speak of.

I do agree that the next top 6 forward, if there is one, could make a lot of difference on this team. I still haven't figured out where everyone's going to play. You can make a case that 94's observations will hold true, which BRF correctly states in the worst case. The best case is that Zherdev becomes a 40 goal scorer and thrives in NYC. That Dawes continues to improve and is a 25+ goal scorer. That Naslund maintains his 60 some-odd points, which isn't unreasonable and may be all they need. That Redden returns to form. Which is why, I guess, this upcoming team isn't too different than the prior seasons' where, if Jagr [or Lundqvist] didn't perform or went down for any period of time, you really didn't know where this team would go.

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07-07-2008, 11:07 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by darrenturcotte#8 View Post
More then half the league makes the playoffs. Congrats on raising an F avg to a C???!!!
Maybe Renney deserves a better grade since he's the only coach in the East to have made the playoffs in all three seasons since the lockout.

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07-07-2008, 11:08 AM
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Haha, cool, more Renney hate. Didn't see this coming after reading the loaded thread title.

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07-07-2008, 11:18 AM
  #91
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[QUOTE=Happy London Ranger;14773900]Naslund is not an upgrade over jagr. Simply not going to happen....

He isn't meant to be an upgrade over anyone. He was brought in to be a piece that fit the system Renney is going for.

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I am not sure Drury can providethe leadership it if he is not scoring the big goals.
We all believed that Drury is that man to be captain when we signed him. Hopefully that is still the case...but I have doubts now.
I have no doubts about that. You can't make judgments about Drury's leadership last season because he was clearly taking a secondary role to Jagr, even though I don't believe Jagr was a good leader. Scoring big goals isn't the basis for leadership.

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We have also lost one of the grittiest hardest working wingers in the league and no I am not talking about Avery. talking about adding speed. naslund is not faster than Jagr and neither Zherdev, Naslund nor Redden are faster than Straka was.
Zherdev is every bit as fast as Straka. Not to mention he's bigger and more skilled. Naslund is very fast as well, I don't know where you're getting this from.

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All of this is just window dressing.

Fact remains that Slats didn't have it in him to offer Jags a 2 year contract with option. and he did offer a 2 year contract to Naslund.
Fact remains that Slats offered Jagr a contract he felt was suitable and Jagr rejected it. No other team offered Jagr a 2 year contract either. Not to mention Jagr wanted 7+ mil, while Naslund got 4.

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And rather than tweek here and there we now have retooled the rig. Where is the guarantee that Naslund and Gomez will get on. Naslund played well with the twins. He doesn't have them here.
We have retooled the rig to fit the players we have locked up long term, rather than building the ship around a guy who would have been gone in a year or two. Naslund fits the kind of game Gomez plays; an end-to-end offense that likes to score on the rush. Not to mention he plays the half-boards on the PP. Do you really think the Sedin's are above Gomez and Zherdev in terms of talent? Hardly.

If you really thought a tweak here and there was going to put us over the top, you were mistaken.

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07-07-2008, 11:27 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
I'm a bit confused...you're saying Renney made due with what he had...are you talking about just last season or are you talking about the last three seasons? I'm sure there are tons of NHL coaches, past and present, who would've loved to have coached the Rangers of the last three years which featured some pretty decent lineups, including one that had a 54 goal scorer.

And which NYR team had no defense to speak of? The defense didn't have the same numbers as last season, but three years ago it was ranked 4th in the league and actually gave up less goals at 5-on-5. The prior season they ranked 9th (both at 2.57 goals against compared with 2.32 last season). While it improved, I wouldn't say there was no defense to speak of.

I do agree that the next top 6 forward, if there is one, could make a lot of difference on this team. I still haven't figured out where everyone's going to play. You can make a case that 94's observations will hold true, which BRF correctly states in the worst case. The best case is that Zherdev becomes a 40 goal scorer and thrives in NYC. That Dawes continues to improve and is a 25+ goal scorer. That Naslund maintains his 60 some-odd points, which isn't unreasonable and may be all they need. That Redden returns to form. Which is why, I guess, this upcoming team isn't too different than the prior seasons' where, if Jagr [or Lundqvist] didn't perform or went down for any period of time, you really didn't know where this team would go.
Sorry Fletch, that line was a little misleading. I just meant that Renney did a very good job of adjusting his team to the conditions that arose throughout his tenure here. People projected our lineup to be amongst the league leaders in goal scoring, but we weren't. Renney did a very good job of getting the team (collectively) to play defense when the pucks weren't hitting the back of the net.

As I'm sure you'll remember, to start the year most analysts were dogging our blue-line as the 'weak link' in an otherwise dominant squad. I did have to agree to an extent, our defense looked average at best on paper. However, Renney did an excellent job in turning that group of d-men into a very capable blue-line.

How many coaches would've given Dubinsky a chance on the first line with Jagr instead of just hoping Gomez and Jagr would make it work eventually? When everyone thought Staal needed another year in the AHL, Renney brought him up and gave him a shot. Point being, Renney has the ability to read a player and understand what he has to work with. That's the definition of a good coach. I don't think Naslund and Zherdev were simply backup plans to the possible loss of Jagr. I think Renney wanted certain pieces for a certain style of play, and now he has them. I think Hossa was probably the first choice, but Naslund and Zherdev isn't really that bad of a consolation prize.

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07-07-2008, 11:40 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
what would you have liked to see him do differently?
2007 Sign Gomez only. Let Shanahan go. Keep Nylander. It is clear now he didn't want that much. This way we have had 1st line Straka- Nylander-Jagr working.
2008. Re-sign Straka this summer. Re-sign Jagr this summer. Re-sign Avery this summer. Trade for Zherdev ( I've got to agree to Tyutin loss). Sign Kalinin.
So for upcoming season:

Straka-Nylander-Jagr
Avery-Gomez-Zherdev
UFA/Dawes-Dubinski-Callahan
Hollweg-Betts-Orr

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07-07-2008, 11:47 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by 94now View Post
2007 Sign Gomez only. Let Shanahan go. Keep Nylander. It is clear now he didn't want that much. This way we have had 1st line Straka- Nylander-Jagr working.
2008. Re-sign Straka this summer. Re-sign Jagr this summer. Re-sign Avery this summer. Trade for Zherdev ( I've got to agree to Tyutin loss). Sign Kalinin.
So for upcoming season:

Straka-Nylander-Jagr
Avery-Gomez-Zherdev
UFA/Dawes-Dubinski-Callahan
Hollweg-Betts-Orr
I would much rather have those lines than our current lines. and no horrible contract for Drury (Gargamel strikes again forechecker.)

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07-07-2008, 11:49 AM
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That is more clear...

I will say that Renney did adjust, but at the same time, there are many instances in which he did not adjust over the last three seasons. Sure he gave Dubi a chance. Of course the reason he gave Dubi a chance was (may've been) because he had Jagr and figured Jagr can carry that line, and if Jagr can be somewhat successful (forget about 100 points), Gomez should be the league's best second line center and Drury should be the league's best third line center, and Betts should be the league's best fourth line center.

Renney loves to spread things out - he loves balance. I wouldn't doubt if Renney's plan all along was to play Jagr with Dubi so he'd have extremely favorable matchups on the bottom three lines and cross his fingers that Jagr could carry a top line.

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07-07-2008, 11:54 AM
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94...

if you want to play the 'what-if' game, why not have the Rangers signing Savard when he was UFA for 5 years at $5MM per. That was a steal.

No comment on that lineup - looks somewhat similar to a lineup I've seen that didn't work out. Just curious - what would the defense look like?

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07-07-2008, 12:08 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Happy London Ranger View Post
Naslund is not an upgrade over jagr. Simply not going to happen....
Has anyone actually said that he would be? I don't think so...he's not even a replacement. But he is a solid top 6 winger

Quote:
talking about adding speed. naslund is not faster than Jagr and neither Zherdev, Naslund nor Redden are faster than Straka was.
I loved Straka, but I think he was losing a step and struggling more and more. Whether it was injuries or skills deteriorating a bit, he wasn't the same player last year that he was in previous years.

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and he did offer a 2 year contract to Naslund.
Probably because Naslund would take a lot less than Jagr

Quote:
guarantee that Naslund and Gomez will get on. Naslund played well with the twins.
He doesn't have them here.
There never is a guarantee. Where's the guarantee that Jagr would have had a rebound season? That Straka would too? That Avery wouldn't have gotten hurt and missed most of the season again? Or pissed off his teammates and gotten kicked off the team?

It is a risk, and the roster turnover is a concern, but it had to happen at some point when the Rangers transitioned away from a team based soley on Jaromir Jagr and into something else.

I don't think Naslund or Zherdev or anyone is a replacement for Jagr, or an upgrade to Jagr. But the hope would be that it is easier for this team to come together and play as a more cohesive team than it was when Jagr was the main guy. It's no sure thing, but after 2 years of barely making the playoffs by waiting until the last minute to go on a run, and 2 years of getting bounced in the 2nd round because the team is obviously lacking some pieces, I'm not torn up by the idea of some change.

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Originally Posted by Rags225 View Post
a good regular season team but not a team to win the cup. If Buffalo had a Superstar player they would have been in the finals at least. They were missing that one player who could dominate, and control a game. Something this Ranger team is still missing. there is no one player who could just take over the game, or series and be "the man." Too many complimentary players w/ no superstar to compliment.
I think a bigger part was just that their defense wasn't as good as their offense. If the offense had some problems, then they probably weren't going to win a close 2-1 game or something on a consistent basis. But maybe I'm wrong...I agree a gamebreaking player can help almost any team, but they're usually not that easy to find, and in the Rangers case, it may have been time to move on from the one they had. I guess time will tell.

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07-07-2008, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 94now View Post
2007 Sign Gomez only. Let Shanahan go. Keep Nylander. It is clear now he didn't want that much. This way we have had 1st line Straka- Nylander-Jagr working.
2008. Re-sign Straka this summer. Re-sign Jagr this summer. Re-sign Avery this summer. Trade for Zherdev ( I've got to agree to Tyutin loss). Sign Kalinin.
So for upcoming season:

Straka-Nylander-Jagr
Avery-Gomez-Zherdev
UFA/Dawes-Dubinski-Callahan
Hollweg-Betts-Orr
there is no way they could have signed everyone and be under the cap

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07-07-2008, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
if you want to play the 'what-if' game, why not have the Rangers signing Savard when he was UFA for 5 years at $5MM per. That was a steal.

No comment on that lineup - looks somewhat similar to a lineup I've seen that didn't work out. Just curious - what would the defense look like?
What exactly didn't work out? The best 1st line in NHL in '07?. Well, it might not be so last year, but it would still be the heck of the line. Jagr could be a Ranger now simply because he would have gone over 84 points playing on the line like that.

Savard is not what we needed regardless of cost.. He is smaller then Gomez. This team needs Messier kind of 2C whether his name is Mark or Evgeny. We needed Vinny, but it is too late now.

I wouldn't change defense at all. Kalinin and Redden in lieu of Malik and Tyutin is not a lot to complain.


Last edited by 94now: 07-07-2008 at 12:25 PM.
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07-07-2008, 12:22 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by 94now View Post
What didn't work out? The best 1st line in NHL in '07?. Well, it might not be so last year, but it would still be the heck of the line. Jagr could be a Ranger now simply because he would have gone over 84 points playing on the line like that.
His point was that those lines look pretty much like the same ones the Rangers already had, and they still didn't get out of the second round. Why should it magically make them that much better?

Quote:
Savard is not what we needed regardless of cost.. He is smaller then Gomez. This team needs Messier kind of 2C whether his name is Mark or Evgeny. We needed Vinny, but it is too late now.
When did they ever have a legitimate chance to get Lecavalier?

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