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Old
07-09-2008, 11:16 AM
  #1
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Question for the doomsayers

There are a number of folks who have been posting recently decrying the Rangers' offseason (Radek27, Bleed Ranger Blue, Blackburn2727, etc.). Personally, I am very pleased with the moves so far (and expect one more to clear up the forward glut), but you obviously wanted to see Slats do (or perhaps not do?) something else. So I have a question:

If you don't like the direction the team has taken... exactly what lineup DID you want to see? (Please refrain from goofball responses like trading Hollweg for Gaborik.)

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07-09-2008, 11:18 AM
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Jaromir Jagr
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They all wanted to acquire the players we acquired at $2M less, of course.

But then, they realize they need to keep their day job, and not pretend they are GM (and yes, myself and all of you have been caught doing this before).

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07-09-2008, 11:29 AM
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At first i was worried we were going to overload with over aged vets.

Sather proved the opposite.

Only 4 players 30 years or older, on the roster. And that includes Valiquette.

That is the kind of turn over i like.

All we need is another (young) top 6 forward and a reliable 7th defenseman, and the roster is complete.

And, we may get younger still, Anisimov has a real shot at winning the 3rd line center position. Pushing Drury to the wing and Dubinsky as 2nd line center.

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07-09-2008, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
There are a number of folks who have been posting recently decrying the Rangers' offseason (Radek27, Bleed Ranger Blue, Blackburn2727, etc.). Personally, I am very pleased with the moves so far (and expect one more to clear up the forward glut), but you obviously wanted to see Slats do (or perhaps not do?) something else. So I have a question:

If you don't like the direction the team has taken... exactly what lineup DID you want to see? (Please refrain from goofball responses like trading Hollweg for Gaborik.)
Funny, I was posing the exact same question to those who wanted Jagr run out of town prior to July 1st: "If we dont re-sign Jagr, what do you want Sather to do?" I got very little response, but the overall theme was the team needed to get younger. My point through all of it was that younger does not necessarily mean better...especially in this organization, where the lack of young top 6 forwards is the biggest problem. I dont think we have a player now that can even come close to shouldering the load and abuse Jagr took each and every night from opposing teams top defensemen. In fact, our top 6 is soft as Charmin.

Im obviously happy with the goaltending, as well as the defense (Rozsival and Redden making 11.5 million per between them may be a problem down the road, however). Im happy with the 3rd and 4th lines because we have so many interchangable parts. Its the top 6 forwards that are faulty.

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07-09-2008, 11:50 AM
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Gardner McKay
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
There are a number of folks who have been posting recently decrying the Rangers' offseason (Radek27, Bleed Ranger Blue, Blackburn2727, etc.). Personally, I am very pleased with the moves so far (and expect one more to clear up the forward glut), but you obviously wanted to see Slats do (or perhaps not do?) something else. So I have a question:

If you don't like the direction the team has taken... exactly what lineup DID you want to see? (Please refrain from goofball responses like trading Hollweg for Gaborik.)
Im absolutely thrilled, while I think it crunches us for the future, the more and more I think about it Ol' slats must have something up his sleeve.

Hopefully we can acquire another top 6 forward because honestly we have a lot of players who are ready ATM but no space for them.

For ***** sake I know these wont be the actual lines but to give you a perspective as to whats going to happen to certain players...

Zherdev-Gomez-Naslund
Dawes-Dubinsky-Drury
Callahan-Fritche-Prucha/Sjostrom
Voros-Betts-Rissmiller

Left out- we have Korpedo who is very ready, Anisimov who by all accounts could come in and blow us away in camp and what aboot either Prucha or Sjostrom, one of them is an odd man out....

I wouldnt be surprised if we see Prucha/Callahan/Dawes Sangs 1st 2nd/3rd going somwhere for a legitimate top 6 forward. Who knows maybe we cna pry Frolov or Kopitar out of LA.

No we can not get a guy like Patty O'sullivan for Callahan Prucha 3rd, the NHL DOES NOT WORK LIKE THAT. You must give to get.

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07-09-2008, 11:54 AM
  #6
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Originally Posted by The Great Dubinsky View Post
Im absolutely thrilled, while I think it crunches us for the future, the more and more I think about it Ol' slats must have something up his sleeve.

Hopefully we can acquire another top 6 forward because honestly we have a lot of players who are ready ATM but no space for them.

For ***** sake I know these wont be the actual lines but to give you a perspective as to whats going to happen to certain players...

Zherdev-Gomez-Naslund
Dawes-Dubinsky-Drury
Callahan-Fritche-Prucha/Sjostrom
Voros-Betts-Rissmiller

Left out- we have Korpedo who is very ready, Anisimov who by all accounts could come in and blow us away in camp and what aboot either Prucha or Sjostrom, one of them is an odd man out....

I wouldnt be surprised if we see Prucha/Callahan/Dawes Sangs 1st 2nd/3rd going somwhere for a legitimate top 6 forward. Who knows maybe we cna pry Frolov or Kopitar out of LA.

No we can not get a guy like Patty O'sullivan for Callahan Prucha 3rd, the NHL DOES NOT WORK LIKE THAT. You must give to get.
Sanguinetti is going no where.......he has a open spot next yr when Mara and Kalinen are FA

As for the Forward lines it does make sense to have Drury move to the Wing on a second line with Dubinsky but I don't see it happening right away

As for the lines yes the Korpikoski and Aminisev's have to wait another yr........not to mention Byers and Moore among others.......BUT they have depth and those players are young so no big whoop

Next yr more open spots will come...........I think Prucha will get a shot to produce again and IF he does everyone can shut up.......the guy has played 3 yrs and got over 60 goals......sure last yr was down BUT he got hurt and Shanny took his ice time

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07-09-2008, 12:12 PM
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I think the basic problem people have is that there's no superstar on the team to push them over the edge or take over a game when needed. *Maybe* Zherdev can become that, but he's absolutely not a guarantee.

I think in theory they could use another legitimate top six forward, preferably one with size and skill, but those are hard to come by and if Dawes continues to improve, Prucha rediscovers his game, the top six aren't actually bad at all. But there's some "ifs" in there. Actually, that's kind of the theme for the forwards. IF Gomez and Zherdev can mesh and turn Zherdev into an elite forward. Or barring that, IF Zherdev can mesh with Drury. IF Naslund has more left in the tank now that he's out of an extremely defensive style with no offensive support. IF Dawes can improve. IF Prucha can recover.

Basically, there's potential, but it's uncertain.

However, I think the team is more rounded overall than last years team, and hopefully will come together better

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07-09-2008, 12:19 PM
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That's the issue, Levitate...

there are a buch of "ifs" and it does make the upcoming season questionable. The good thing is that much of the future wasn't suffered. Toots is gone and he may be missed on the blueline in years to come, but the top for signed for the next few years (including Staal and Girard) aren't all that bad and they took a flyer on a kid who could be a real star and who's put up numbers. But again, there are a lot of "ifs" when talking about the coming season, and there still are a lot of "ifs" when talking about the future.

Levitate - is the team really more well-rounded? Last year's team seemed pretty well-rounded. You had some grit in Dubi, Avery, Cally, the fourth line and even Dawes as well as on defense. The defense seemed pretty good too. Guys who can block shots, take the body here and there, etc. And then you had your skilled guys and vets in Jagr, Straka, Gomez and Drury and Shanny (who did tally more than 20 goals last season). So compared to this coming season, that doesn't seem all that un-rounded, if that's a word.

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07-09-2008, 12:26 PM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Great Dubinsky View Post

I wouldnt be surprised if we see Prucha/Callahan/Dawes Sangs 1st 2nd/3rd going somwhere for a legitimate top 6 forward. Who knows maybe we cna pry Frolov or Kopitar out of LA.

No we can not get a guy like Patty O'sullivan for Callahan Prucha 3rd, the NHL DOES NOT WORK LIKE THAT. You must give to get
.
Frolov would be an incredible addition to this team. He has size, speed, skill and is locked in to an absolutely phenomenal contract for 2 more years.

..which is why LA is almost certainly not giving him up.

Kopitar isn't gonna happen either.

O'Sullivan is the only one that could be a possibility considering the negative press about his attitude, etc., and the fact that LA hasn't resigned him yet. However, he's a first line winger for them next season, and he isn't going to come for peanuts. They're going to want young, NHL ready roster players or serious prospects. I don't think Prucha + Callahan + Pick is going to get you a whiff of O'Sullivan.

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07-09-2008, 12:27 PM
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I don't have any problems with the Tyutin trade, I'm glad that went down. I would have tried to sign Jason Smith instead of Kalinin (who knows, Sather might have and probably DID try, but since you're asking what team I would have liked to see...), not sign Naslund and sign Jagr. Don't sign either Rissmiller or Voros, try and get Avery if possible, if not let him go. And I wouldn't have paid so much for so long with Redden. If he asked 5 million for 4 years, I would've done it. But years and 6.5 million are way too much, IMO. If there was any money left over (doubt it), I would go after Demitra, who I think has more in the tank than Naslund.

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07-09-2008, 12:35 PM
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I think it feels more well rounded to me because we're not scrambling to find someone to play with Jagr. As much as I liked him, and wanted him back at some point, I have to agree that he made line combinations a bit more difficult. Actually, same with Shanahan to a degree. There was the question from the beginning of who Jagr would play with, and he struggled with everyone for most of the season because he just couldn't mesh with them. In my mind, that made the team feel unbalanced, because it was just so "Jagr Jagr Jagr" and he couldn't get it going.

A bit the same with Shanahan, in that there really wasn't a good fit for him, and that was at least partly his own doing because he simply couldn't keep up with Gomez, who you'd expect to be good with him as a playmaker, and his style of play just didn't fit Drury at all.

Maybe it's just me being optimistic, but the new additions seem like they'll mesh easier with the current players. And, for better or worse, the offense won't be all about Jagr.

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07-09-2008, 12:50 PM
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I think the thing that people are not realizing is we are seeing a whole sale change over while possibly continuing our high level of play that has been consistent for the past couple of years. Two seasons ago we had a team completely built around aging vets like Jagr, Straka, Nylander and Shanny. Meanwhile we were building our system in the AHL and various junior leagues to replace those guys. One of our prospects became a true superstar in the meantime (the King) and we were able to release these older guys with large contracts. But building around our goaltender superstar means building up the blueline first, the center ice second and then get some guys who can bury the puck at the wings.

Step 1) Through our system (Staal and Girardi) and through free agency (Redden, Roszy) we have been able to build an impressive blueline core in front of our superstar. These guys include some very offensive and some solid defensive guys, but all guys who can, at least to an extent, play on the entire ice surface. That is relatively impressive, and I think we might see Hank's best year yet due to guys like Staal and Girardi maturing another year.

Step 2) Again, through our system (Dubi and Betts) and through free agency (Gomer and Dru) we have been able to build one of the best center ice lineups with possible injury and future fill ins (Ani and Korpedo). These guys are talented in finishing, skating the puck, playing a defensive game, faceoffs, distributing the puck and pretty much anything you could want from your centerman.

Step 3) The finishers, which I get a feeling is still a work in process, but if Dawes, Prucha, Cally or can cement their place in the top six we have got size, speed, shooting, stickhandling, grit, vets and kids. We have a good combination of future talent, up and comers, older guys on the downside of their career who can still bury it, and some now kids who have all the talent in the world and are prepared to breakout.

In summation, this team is no longer built around line 1 like it used to be. There are some stars (Naslund, Drury, Gomez, Redden) on both offense and defense, but the franchise player here in Lundqvist. This team is built around him and it is obvious the way they built the blueline first, then centers, then wings. The concept has been proven to work in the NHL, I hate to use the comparison, but look at Brodeur and the Devils for the last fifteen years. This team is poised to make a run at it for years and years and does not need that top line superstar. The Devils never really had one.

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07-09-2008, 01:03 PM
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Bogans, they did get that great gift though of Scott Stevens, arguably the best at his position for a number of years.

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07-09-2008, 01:05 PM
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I think the underlying problem with having a superstar on your team is that it always comes down to what he does. We've been seeing it for the last 3 years; players constantly looking to Jagr to come up with the big play. I think the players were constantly looking to him for some sort of assurance that they could make it, but he never gave it to them. I mean, what kind of player refuses the captaincy? How much inspiration can a guy give to his team when he wasn't even sure he could lead them in the first place? With Jagr gone, we force individual players to take more responsibility for the team as a whole. We'll see guys like Rozsival shoot the puck more. Why? Because he has to.

I think this team is every bit as talented as last years team and more importantly, is built around a single strategy and not an individual. The real discrepancy here is that people are blinded by the names on the Jersey. How many people were calling for Jagr's head last season? We were all calling him out for lack of heart, lack of production and everything else, but now people think we can't win without him? Shanny, Straka and Jagr were all great players, but they were in the twilight of their respective careers.

We have a very young team with tons of potential, I think we should all be excited for that.

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07-09-2008, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
Bogans, they did get that great gift though of Scott Stevens, arguably the best at his position for a number of years.
After seeing Marc Staal's rookie year at the age of 20, I believe we can get that great gift from inside our own organization. And we have two first round offensive defenseman in the system, one of whom could hopefully be our Scott Neidermayer. I really don't believe it is that far fetched of a comparison, Staal could be an absolutely enormous force on the blueline in the mold of Stevens, Pronger, etc.


Last edited by bogans: 07-09-2008 at 01:19 PM.
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07-09-2008, 01:18 PM
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I think we may have lost a little "toughness" by losing Straka, Avery, Jagr and Shanny. But in all fairness to Sather and Renney, we had two legit shots (2007 and 2008) to take shots at the cup with an aging team and it clearly didn't work once we got into the second round (namely Avery and Shanny).

I like the direction we are going in, and we have to acknowledge that Lundqvist is bound to bounce back from a really inconsistent 2008 (which is crazy considering he was a vezina finalist)...If you think about it, we were garbage offensively last year with Jagr, Avery, Straka and Shanny. We can't get any worse.

Plus, we are furthering the development of all the guys we used to cry about never getting inserted into the lineup (Dawes, Cally, Staal, Dubinsky)


I think after 3 straight 90-win seasons and playoff appearances, we should trust Sather.

Besides, only Redden was long terms....kalinin, Naslund, Rissmiller and Mara should all be gone in time to land a real superstar under the cap

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07-09-2008, 01:24 PM
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I dont post often, but I have to say its really frustrating reading all the doomsayers on the forum. I am also a little disappointed no one has answered the OP's question. It just seems to me that some people love to complain.

Lets travel back in time 4 years before the lockout when Sather traded away the entire roster at the deadline. And lets go around asking every Ranger fan if they would be happy to find out that after the inevitable lockout, the Rangers will make the playoffs 3 straight years. They will be considered to have of the best prospect pools in the league, their goalie will be nominated for the Vezina the first 3 seasons of his career, and they will roster a team with just 4 players over the age of 30 at the beginning of the 2008-2009 season. Would you be happy with that?

I think you know what the answer would be. But yet, we still have tons of people complaining. Thus far Sather and Renney have made few mistakes since taking over. You may not agree with every decision. Hell I wanted Parise really bad in 2003! But one thing I can say is that the Rangers management has earned my trust.

One other thing I can tell you with 100% certainty is that YOU DO NOT KNOW ALL THE FACTS. You arent aware of what goes on in the locker room, you dont know who is playing with injuries, you have no idea when a prospect is ACTUALLY going to be ready, and you aren't on the conference call with Sather and player Agents. 2 people that do have this info are Sather and Renney.

Avery may be my all time favorite player. Hate to see him go. But I see the facts. Avery does take shifts off. And he did this during 2 contract years with the Rangers. How many shifts will he take off during a 4 year contract? And it doesnt matter what you hear in the press, on the players and management really know what affect Avery has on the team off the ice.

As for Jagr. No one can argue the team was built around Jagr. We have two 7 million dollar centers playing behind a rookie center because Jagr(our captain) didnt like playing with them. Oh yeah... and he also admits he wasnt trying hard during the regular season. Thanks Cap-i-tan!

As for Renney... Maybe he coached the way he did last season because we had bad defensemen? Or maybe it was because Drury and Gomez had weak wingers and Jagr wasnt producing? So he tried to play strong D? We will never know these things, because like I said above, we dont have all the facts.

What we do know is now that Jagr is gone, Renney is moving towards a system that he would rather play. And for all the people ready to string him up if this seasons doesnt go well... shove it. I am sure Sather and Renney would rather have Gaborik than Naslund, but Naslund was what was available. So I dont feel this is a "Make it, or Break it" season for him. I doubt this is his IDEAL roster. But with the facts that he had, and the options that were available, Renney and Sather tried to make the best possible team that they could.

And I would take Renney's and Sather's decisions over any internet lawn chair quarterback that lacks the facts.

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07-09-2008, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by bogans View Post
There are some stars (Naslund, Drury, Gomez, Redden) on both offense and defense,
Naslund WAS a star. Drury was NEVER a star. Gomez is ALMOST a star. Redden was ALMOST a star and may still ALMOST be a star, hopefully. Lundqvist is the only current STAR, with the departure of Jagr.

Of the rest, I expect Staal to become a star. Dubi might become a star but I doubt it. Dawes is an even bigger longshot. This is not a lineup littered with potential superstars or great players. They are either not here yet or we are years away from competing for the prize.

With luck they might win a Cup but with luck one could say the same thing for almost every team in the league. This is currently a very non-physical team without great offensive firepower. Only if the youth greatly accelerates their skills does this team not face an immediate bleak future, in my opinion.

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07-09-2008, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by MadHookUp View Post
I dont post often, but I have to say its really frustrating reading all the doomsayers on the forum. I am also a little disappointed no one has answered the OP's question. It just seems to me that some people love to complain.

Lets travel back in time 4 years before the lockout when Sather traded away the entire roster at the deadline. And lets go around asking every Ranger fan if they would be happy to find out that after the inevitable lockout, the Rangers will make the playoffs 3 straight years. They will be considered to have of the best prospect pools in the league, their goalie will be nominated for the Vezina the first 3 seasons of his career, and they will roster a team with just 4 players over the age of 30 at the beginning of the 2008-2009 season. Would you be happy with that?

I think you know what the answer would be. But yet, we still have tons of people complaining. Thus far Sather and Renney have made few mistakes since taking over. You may not agree with every decision. Hell I wanted Parise really bad in 2003! But one thing I can say is that the Rangers management has earned my trust.

One other thing I can tell you with 100% certainty is that YOU DO NOT KNOW ALL THE FACTS. You arent aware of what goes on in the locker room, you dont know who is playing with injuries, you have no idea when a prospect is ACTUALLY going to be ready, and you aren't on the conference call with Sather and player Agents. 2 people that do have this info are Sather and Renney.

Avery may be my all time favorite player. Hate to see him go. But I see the facts. Avery does take shifts off. And he did this during 2 contract years with the Rangers. How many shifts will he take off during a 4 year contract? And it doesnt matter what you hear in the press, on the players and management really know what affect Avery has on the team off the ice.

As for Jagr. No one can argue the team was built around Jagr. We have two 7 million dollar centers playing behind a rookie center because Jagr(our captain) didnt like playing with them. Oh yeah... and he also admits he wasnt trying hard during the regular season. Thanks Cap-i-tan!

As for Renney... Maybe he coached the way he did last season because we had bad defensemen? Or maybe it was because Drury and Gomez had weak wingers and Jagr wasnt producing? So he tried to play strong D? We will never know these things, because like I said above, we dont have all the facts.

What we do know is now that Jagr is gone, Renney is moving towards a system that he would rather play. And for all the people ready to string him up if this seasons doesnt go well... shove it. I am sure Sather and Renney would rather have Gaborik than Naslund, but Naslund was what was available. So I dont feel this is a "Make it, or Break it" season for him. I doubt this is his IDEAL roster. But with the facts that he had, and the options that were available, Renney and Sather tried to make the best possible team that they could.

And I would take Renney's and Sather's decisions over any internet lawn chair quarterback that lacks the facts.
That's all well and good but you left out the fact that the other teams in the division, except for the Islanders, have better youth than the young and "renovated" Rangers and so far their youth seems to have more upside. It could change but that is the current state of affairs.

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07-09-2008, 01:51 PM
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Levitate...

I think the whole finding someone to play with Jagr is overblown. Is everyone in here telling me that if Jagr and Gomez played an entire season together that Jagr would've ended up with 40-50 points? I think they would've found each other eventually, or adapted to each other's style eventually. Perhaps it wouldn't be 1+1=5, but I don't think it would've been 1+1=1 either. They played well together in December when they had the chance after Gomez said he was more comfortable.

Also, look who he ended up with to begin the season. Dubi and Hossa. A rookie and a guy with 10 good NHL games under his belt, which is a trio that lasted about 15 or so games. I don't think they really tried that hard and disrupted much looking for a match with Jagr.

And what do you think of this season? There are two top 6 wingers returning (I exclude Prucha since he didn't play down the stretch). It's pretty much impossible for a centerman to have two wingers with whom he played last season. It's very possible that a centerman will have two new wingers to play with. Will Renney get it right on day 1 or will they scramble a good portion of the season trying to find that chemistry? Add to that the the three defensive pairs will likely be entirely different than last season.

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07-09-2008, 01:52 PM
  #21
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For me, there are too many questionmarks.
- How will Zherdev handle New York City pressure? He seems to be very shy guy, he played second line in Columbus, now he is gonna play 1st line RW in New York...thats a huge step.
- How will Naslund produce? If Jagr was on decline, Naslund is even more. Personally i consider Markus worst Rangers signing this offseason(2 ******* years?!)
- Can Redden handle playing in New York and position of No1 d-man? Ottawa fans are reporting that after his mom died 2 years ago he was never been the same...can he produce?Can he be PP QB?
- Can Prucha re-gain his production? Or will he be one year wonder?
- imo most important - team drastically changed, what about chemistry in locker room?Lot of new faces, lot of new personalities...will they mesh together?

I'm still disappointed that Jagr and Sather didn't work out some acceptable deal...otherwise i would be much more confident in this team.

Rangers have top3 goaltender in league, very good defense(on paper), and very solid bottom6. If you did not like defensive system from last year, u better don't watch this year

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07-09-2008, 02:00 PM
  #22
Fletch
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kostik...

if Zherdev is to play the right wing, is it a forgone conclusion he'd play on the 'top' line? Wouldn't that be a position for Naslund? It would take some pressure off the kid.

As for Redden - I've heard the same - but maybe the change of scenery will do him good.

The question on Prucha will be does he have a place on the team. Ideally he's a left winger and needs to get decent PP time to keep his timing on his shot and be effective. I'm not even sure he's in Renney's plan and thus we needn't worry about him.

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07-09-2008, 02:04 PM
  #23
MadHookUp
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I am not sure what the rest of the division has to do with my post?

For all the Doomsayers. If you could trade GMs and Coaches. Are there any GM/Coach combo's that you would trade Sather and Renney for?

Sure, the Ozo trade sucked. Jessiman and Montoya were bad picks. No GM drafts perfectly. But these 2 have made FAR more better choices than bad ones.

Maybe Naslund and Redden have very good reasons for not performing incredibly well the past 2 seasons? These facts are probably well know to Renney and Sather. Or maybe the just got the best available Winger and Defenseman out there?

Here are the facts...
1.) In today's market you probably wont win a Stanley Cup without signing UFA's
2.) UFA will get paid more than they are worth.

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07-09-2008, 02:06 PM
  #24
McRanger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
Naslund WAS a star. Drury was NEVER a star. Gomez is ALMOST a star. Redden was ALMOST a star and may still ALMOST be a star, hopefully. Lundqvist is the only current STAR, with the departure of Jagr.
Aside from the playoffs Jagr WAS a star as well.

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07-09-2008, 02:12 PM
  #25
BrianLeetch2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
That's all well and good but you left out the fact that the other teams in the division, except for the Islanders, have better youth than the young and "renovated" Rangers and so far their youth seems to have more upside. It could change but that is the current state of affairs.
Do you think the devils have better youth then the rangers???


Last edited by BrianLeetch2: 07-09-2008 at 02:18 PM.
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