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Old
07-09-2008, 04:50 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by MadHookUp View Post
Cant fault them on that. Orpik turned down more money from the Rangers to go back to Pittsburgh.

I don't fault Orpik at all, I admire that character trait, he took less to stay some place he was happy & comfortable, we need a guy like that on our team.

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07-09-2008, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by frankthefrowner View Post
Someone earlier in this thread said we lack physicality. I have to disagree completely...

Yea maybe on the top 2 lines we lack physicality but uhhh what team has a bunch of meat heads looking to pound peoples faces in on the top 2 lines? As far as the 3rd and 4th lines, we have Voros, Orr, Hollweg(for now), and perhaps if he makes the team Dane Byers.

On Defense we have to 2 guys in the likes of Girardi and Mara who are physical. Yes Mara despite being known for his offensive play can lay a hit as he showed alot during the playoffs.

While Dawes, Prucha and Drury arent very large, they all play like they are. Dawes and Prucha both play like freight trains and Dru blocks shots all god damn day.

Oh yea I almost forgot, BRANDON *** DUBINSKY would qualify as physical No??!!

I'm not worried about the Physical side as the Rissmiller & Korps will make us a little tougher & bigger.

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07-09-2008, 05:06 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by The Thomas J. View Post
I don't fault Orpik at all, I admire that character trait, he took less to stay some place he was happy & comfortable, we need a guy like that on our team.
I meant you cant fault the Rangers for not signing him.

As to what you said, we kinda do! Mara turned down more money to stay with the Rangers.

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07-09-2008, 05:11 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by The Thomas J. View Post
I don't fault Orpik at all, I admire that character trait, he took less to stay some place he was happy & comfortable, we need a guy like that on our team.
I can fault him all I want, who the **** would choose the Penguins over the New York Rangers???? Dumbass

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07-09-2008, 05:12 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by frankthefrowner View Post

While Dawes, Prucha and Drury arent very large, they all play like they are. Dawes and Prucha both play like freight trains and Dru blocks shots all god damn day.
Um, yeah, Prucha is not a guy I would call physical, unless by physical you mean a skinny little twig who runs into the hip of a big defender and ends up the opposite zone. Callahan on the other hand, that guy plays like a freight train for his size.

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07-09-2008, 05:14 PM
  #56
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I wouldn't consider myself a "doomsayer" but I a not optimistic about what Sather/Renney have done this offseason. I've spelled out what I would've done differently in other threads and before July 1st I asked many of the "don't resign Jagr and Avery" posters what they would do...To a man the answer was always "I don't know"...I can tell you this much...not one...NOT one said Resign Rozsivial, sign Redden, Voros, Rissmiller and trade for Zherdev...

what's amazing about Zherdev is we have had THREE Zherdev threads in the past and almost everybody that loved the trade (and I love the trade) didn't want any part of Zherdev...A year ago to the day of the trade we had a 3 pages of people calling Zherdev a "head case" a "cancer" "ten cent head million dollar talent" now he is part of the solution? what a difference a year makes...

This roster is weak...it isn't as good as the previous years teams...youth blinds people into thinking we are better when in reality nobody (not me not you) nobody knows what's going to happen. My un-educated guess is this team is in big trouble next season. We seem to forget how important Jagr and Avery were to this team..Jagr kept the pressure of Gomez (btw if Gomez has a repeat of this year is he considered a bust here?) and when he played with Gomez, Gomez put up points..

Jagr carried Dubinsky (I swear somebody wrote yesterday that Dubinsky set up Jagr as much as Jagr setup Dubinsky!!!)

Avery IMO kept everybody in the game...If you weren't paying attention to what Avery was doing it might cost you a big hit from the other team. Avery also stuck up for his teammates and played well on the top 2 lines...Was he worth the contract? To a better deeper and more experienced team he is...Why that gets pushed aside I'll never understand...

I can't say what exactly I would've done differently without knowing what else the Rangers could've done. I can tell you this much I would not have made some of the signings they made...to me it was Rozsival or Redden...do we need Rissmiller and Voros with Korpikoski in the system? Do we need Voros with Byers in the system?

The Rangers are up against the cap and they have an in-complete roster of players..They have no depth on defense beyond the top 6...(to me beyond the top 4 but I'll save my opinions on Kalinin and Mara...) and they have 4 REAL top 2 line forwards..the rest is going to be jumbled or worse young guys put into positions they aren't ready for nor are the suited for...

Now I've read people try to get creative by putting Dubinsky with Drury and having Anismov as the 3rd line center....so we weaken one position by putting Drury at lw (which Drury was moving to LW it was going to happen last year) and call up a kid who might not be ready? Interesting but a HUGE risk..

We have people that think Naslund will rebound this year but don't take into account his decline since the league opened back up for business...

Sather/Renney should've been better prepared for the post Jagr era..the post Avery era..This team has IMO a Swiss cheese forward group a decent top 4 defense and a great goalie (who has been prone to slumps)..

I think at best this team is tenth in the conference I don't think Renney (who people wanted fired during the past two seasons) doesn't make it past Christmas the coach.....then we are going to see the fire sather bandwagon fill up again.....then we are going to have a situation we can't move any of the vets because of the contracts they have...barring the cap going up again next season (and with this economy is that a certain proposition?) the rangers will have no room to improve the roster...any extra cap space will be used to resign our Restricted Free agents...

so no I'm not a doomsayer...I'm realistic...I've seen this movie before..over the past 25 years of being a fan of this team one time can we say they got it right...over the past 84 years they've got it right 4 times...now we are doomsayers for calling out this roster and moves for what they are? I don't think so..I think it's realistic...I think it's reality....look at this team on paper and we don't even have any idea what will work and what won't work? we are a borderline playoff team and that's if everything breaks right next year including a vezina winning year by lundqvist..

I hope I'm wrong...I'll say it in every thread this summer where I kill the roster and moves that were made...next to my family, friends, and business I love Rangers but man oh man I'm not happy with them right now...they screwed up a good thing and are pointing to our youth like we have blue-chipper after blue-chipper in the pipeline...when one of the "if's" is "petr prucha has to regain his form" you know we are in trouble...

I respect everybody's opinion and I pray I'm not right but I have a funny feeling come Christmas time the same people that are enjoying the moves that were made will be crying over the contracts and personal we have...

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07-09-2008, 05:19 PM
  #57
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frowner...

I think the top two lines may get pushed around (although we still don't know exactly who that top six would be). Many other teams' top six aren't brutes, but look at a guy like Elias - he can play physical and can be played against physically and still be effective. Same with Datsyuk and Zetterberg. That's the primary difference between this team's top six and other teams' top six. Perhaps Dubi with a guy like Naslund offsets that nicely, and someone to go into the corners with Gomez would be a nice complement. Or perhaps the style of play is going to be more run-and-gun and not so much digging into the corners and dragging it out (although that may end up being a less defensive system which isn't the objective).

I still don't believe that having guys on the bottom two lines who can grind it out balances out the top two lines. The bottom two lines may play 1/3 the amount of time as the top two lines. That ain't balance. It doesn't need to be 50/50, but I think it needs to be a bit more in the middle.

As mentioned, I'm a bit of a dinosaur. I'd love a team of skilled guys who can grind it out. I know there aren't as many around as there used to be, so perhaps my style's out of fashion. I did think for a time that the direction the team was taking was tougher players who can grind it out along the boards, who had speed and size, grit and skill. Guess that's why there is an abundance of 3/4 liners on this team.

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07-09-2008, 05:25 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner View Post
I wouldn't consider myself a "doomsayer" but I a not optimistic about what Sather/Renney have done this offseason. I've spelled out what I would've done differently in other threads and before July 1st I asked many of the "don't resign Jagr and Avery" posters what they would do...To a man the answer was always "I don't know"...I can tell you this much...not one...NOT one said Resign Rozsivial, sign Redden, Voros, Rissmiller and trade for Zherdev...

what's amazing about Zherdev is we have had THREE Zherdev threads in the past and almost everybody that loved the trade (and I love the trade) didn't want any part of Zherdev...A year ago to the day of the trade we had a 3 pages of people calling Zherdev a "head case" a "cancer" "ten cent head million dollar talent" now he is part of the solution? what a difference a year makes...

This roster is weak...it isn't as good as the previous years teams...youth blinds people into thinking we are better when in reality nobody (not me not you) nobody knows what's going to happen. My un-educated guess is this team is in big trouble next season. We seem to forget how important Jagr and Avery were to this team..Jagr kept the pressure of Gomez (btw if Gomez has a repeat of this year is he considered a bust here?) and when he played with Gomez, Gomez put up points..

Jagr carried Dubinsky (I swear somebody wrote yesterday that Dubinsky set up Jagr as much as Jagr setup Dubinsky!!!)

Avery IMO kept everybody in the game...If you weren't paying attention to what Avery was doing it might cost you a big hit from the other team. Avery also stuck up for his teammates and played well on the top 2 lines...Was he worth the contract? To a better deeper and more experienced team he is...Why that gets pushed aside I'll never understand...

I can't say what exactly I would've done differently without knowing what else the Rangers could've done. I can tell you this much I would not have made some of the signings they made...to me it was Rozsival or Redden...do we need Rissmiller and Voros with Korpikoski in the system? Do we need Voros with Byers in the system?

The Rangers are up against the cap and they have an in-complete roster of players..They have no depth on defense beyond the top 6...(to me beyond the top 4 but I'll save my opinions on Kalinin and Mara...) and they have 4 REAL top 2 line forwards..the rest is going to be jumbled or worse young guys put into positions they aren't ready for nor are the suited for...

Now I've read people try to get creative by putting Dubinsky with Drury and having Anismov as the 3rd line center....so we weaken one position by putting Drury at lw (which Drury was moving to LW it was going to happen last year) and call up a kid who might not be ready? Interesting but a HUGE risk..

We have people that think Naslund will rebound this year but don't take into account his decline since the league opened back up for business...

Sather/Renney should've been better prepared for the post Jagr era..the post Avery era..This team has IMO a Swiss cheese forward group a decent top 4 defense and a great goalie (who has been prone to slumps)..

I think at best this team is tenth in the conference I don't think Renney (who people wanted fired during the past two seasons) doesn't make it past Christmas the coach.....then we are going to see the fire sather bandwagon fill up again.....then we are going to have a situation we can't move any of the vets because of the contracts they have...barring the cap going up again next season (and with this economy is that a certain proposition?) the rangers will have no room to improve the roster...any extra cap space will be used to resign our Restricted Free agents...

so no I'm not a doomsayer...I'm realistic...I've seen this movie before..over the past 25 years of being a fan of this team one time can we say they got it right...over the past 84 years they've got it right 4 times...now we are doomsayers for calling out this roster and moves for what they are? I don't think so..I think it's realistic...I think it's reality....look at this team on paper and we don't even have any idea what will work and what won't work? we are a borderline playoff team and that's if everything breaks right next year including a vezina winning year by lundqvist..

I hope I'm wrong...I'll say it in every thread this summer where I kill the roster and moves that were made...next to my family, friends, and business I love Rangers but man oh man I'm not happy with them right now...they screwed up a good thing and are pointing to our youth like we have blue-chipper after blue-chipper in the pipeline...when one of the "if's" is "petr prucha has to regain his form" you know we are in trouble...

I respect everybody's opinion and I pray I'm not right but I have a funny feeling come Christmas time the same people that are enjoying the moves that were made will be crying over the contracts and personal we have...
The only way I see your opinion coming to fruition is if Lundqvist loses his form, we are banking upon him to be our superstar and keep us in games the way Brodeur did and still does for the Devils. If Redden completely loses his form and Roszival shows he is not the same player without Jagr I may be upset about those signings, but I just don't see it. I think Roszy will be put in a great position to succeed on the second pairing with either Girardi or Staal and on the second power play. Meanwhile, I do believe in Redden being a true #1 and he is in the style of Brian Leetch, who is my favorite Ranger of all time, so it helps me to be optimistic. He an excellent D-man, and I believe will very much solidify our blueline.

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07-09-2008, 05:26 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner View Post
I wouldn't consider myself a "doomsayer" but I a not optimistic about what Sather/Renney have done this offseason. I've spelled out what I would've done differently in other threads and before July 1st I asked many of the "don't resign Jagr and Avery" posters what they would do...To a man the answer was always "I don't know"...I can tell you this much...not one...NOT one said Resign Rozsivial, sign Redden, Voros, Rissmiller and trade for Zherdev...

what's amazing about Zherdev is we have had THREE Zherdev threads in the past and almost everybody that loved the trade (and I love the trade) didn't want any part of Zherdev...A year ago to the day of the trade we had a 3 pages of people calling Zherdev a "head case" a "cancer" "ten cent head million dollar talent" now he is part of the solution? what a difference a year makes...

This roster is weak...it isn't as good as the previous years teams...youth blinds people into thinking we are better when in reality nobody (not me not you) nobody knows what's going to happen. My un-educated guess is this team is in big trouble next season. We seem to forget how important Jagr and Avery were to this team..Jagr kept the pressure of Gomez (btw if Gomez has a repeat of this year is he considered a bust here?) and when he played with Gomez, Gomez put up points..

Jagr carried Dubinsky (I swear somebody wrote yesterday that Dubinsky set up Jagr as much as Jagr setup Dubinsky!!!)

Avery IMO kept everybody in the game...If you weren't paying attention to what Avery was doing it might cost you a big hit from the other team. Avery also stuck up for his teammates and played well on the top 2 lines...Was he worth the contract? To a better deeper and more experienced team he is...Why that gets pushed aside I'll never understand...

I can't say what exactly I would've done differently without knowing what else the Rangers could've done. I can tell you this much I would not have made some of the signings they made...to me it was Rozsival or Redden...do we need Rissmiller and Voros with Korpikoski in the system? Do we need Voros with Byers in the system?

The Rangers are up against the cap and they have an in-complete roster of players..They have no depth on defense beyond the top 6...(to me beyond the top 4 but I'll save my opinions on Kalinin and Mara...) and they have 4 REAL top 2 line forwards..the rest is going to be jumbled or worse young guys put into positions they aren't ready for nor are the suited for...

Now I've read people try to get creative by putting Dubinsky with Drury and having Anismov as the 3rd line center....so we weaken one position by putting Drury at lw (which Drury was moving to LW it was going to happen last year) and call up a kid who might not be ready? Interesting but a HUGE risk..

We have people that think Naslund will rebound this year but don't take into account his decline since the league opened back up for business...

Sather/Renney should've been better prepared for the post Jagr era..the post Avery era..This team has IMO a Swiss cheese forward group a decent top 4 defense and a great goalie (who has been prone to slumps)..

I think at best this team is tenth in the conference I don't think Renney (who people wanted fired during the past two seasons) doesn't make it past Christmas the coach.....then we are going to see the fire sather bandwagon fill up again.....then we are going to have a situation we can't move any of the vets because of the contracts they have...barring the cap going up again next season (and with this economy is that a certain proposition?) the rangers will have no room to improve the roster...any extra cap space will be used to resign our Restricted Free agents...

so no I'm not a doomsayer...I'm realistic...I've seen this movie before..over the past 25 years of being a fan of this team one time can we say they got it right...over the past 84 years they've got it right 4 times...now we are doomsayers for calling out this roster and moves for what they are? I don't think so..I think it's realistic...I think it's reality....look at this team on paper and we don't even have any idea what will work and what won't work? we are a borderline playoff team and that's if everything breaks right next year including a vezina winning year by lundqvist..

I hope I'm wrong...I'll say it in every thread this summer where I kill the roster and moves that were made...next to my family, friends, and business I love Rangers but man oh man I'm not happy with them right now...they screwed up a good thing and are pointing to our youth like we have blue-chipper after blue-chipper in the pipeline...when one of the "if's" is "petr prucha has to regain his form" you know we are in trouble...

I respect everybody's opinion and I pray I'm not right but I have a funny feeling come Christmas time the same people that are enjoying the moves that were made will be crying over the contracts and personal we have...
Nothing could really be realistic until they play the games...you only have optimistic pessimistic and like fletch(on the fence)lol....if you think they are going to finish 10th thats fine but your being a little more on the pessimistic side, and you cant call it be realistic....I do agree this team could very well tank and not do crap.....but I am very optimistic and i have faith in Renney(which some people on here want gone now as we speak) and he is going to change the style of play that has worked under the jagr era......I saw someone post before saying "Im glad i dont have to see jagr cycle for 90 seconds in the corner and never get a shot anymore" and those days are gone....of course guys are going to still cycle in the corners but you get my drift


We got a much younger/FASTER team then we have had in the past 3 seasons, and hopefully will work well under Renney...Im predicitng 2nd/3rd in our division and prob a 5th/6th seed in the conference....even with all the new personal its going to be an exciting season cant wait

LETS GO RANGERS!!!!!

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07-09-2008, 05:29 PM
  #60
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I think the top two lines may get pushed around (although we still don't know exactly who that top six would be). Many other teams' top six aren't brutes, but look at a guy like Elias - he can play physical and can be played against physically and still be effective. Same with Datsyuk and Zetterberg. That's the primary difference between this team's top six and other teams' top six. Perhaps Dubi with a guy like Naslund offsets that nicely, and someone to go into the corners with Gomez would be a nice complement. Or perhaps the style of play is going to be more run-and-gun and not so much digging into the corners and dragging it out (although that may end up being a less defensive system which isn't the objective).
With the superfast and great stickhandling guys we have (Gomer, Naslund, Zherdev) I think we will probably see more of a possession and cycling game then a grinding game. We have guys who can go into the corners, but I think they will let guys like those above possess the puck and make nice passes to setup finishers like Dawes, Drury or let the trash guys get to the pucks like Dubinsky and Callahan.

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07-09-2008, 05:52 PM
  #61
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I didn't see enough...

cylcing out of the Rangers last season. And I do think that often a successful cycle is aided by the ability to win a battle along the boards. OK, that doesn't make a lot of sense. But there's only so much you can go around in circles with the puck before the defense closes in on you and you need to break free, win a battle, and take advantage of what should be an odd-man situation down low so it doesn't end up being a cycle that doesn't generate an opportunity. Jagr cycled real well with Straka and Nylander two and three years ago, as well as with Prucha, Avery, Hossa at times, Dubi, Ruca and others. Part of the reason was that Jagr was able to attract a couple guys and hold them off and move the puck. Part of the reason was others' ability to stickhandle. And part of the reason was that others occasionally won the battle. Point is, at some point, someone's going to have to win the battle and that's part of what I'm looking for.

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07-09-2008, 06:02 PM
  #62
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I have no problem with losing Jagr and replacing him with Naslund. Why? Because we weren't going to win next season anyway. We weren't going to win with Jagr and we aren't going to win with Naslund. I didn't expect this team to win the cup next year either way. This team isn't going to win until it gets a serious goalscoring threat.

I am a big fan of the Zherdev trade. Backman was horrible, and Tyutin was an average player in this league who is not terribly difficult to replace. What you get in Zherdev, the risk/reward is worth making this deal.

But, what we should have done differently, in my mind, really stems from last year. We shouldn't have signed both Gomez and Drury to contracts that neither of them are worth. 1 would have been manageable, but we just had to get 2. But now we've done that again with Redden and Rozsival. You've tied up over $25 million of the salary cap in four guys, none of whom deserve the salary they're earning. I could handle one of Redden or Rozsival a lot better than both.

You understand we're going to have Redden for six years? Now, I wanted Redden, but not for six years at $6.5 million a year. He's not a number one defenseman, but now he'll be getting paid like one for six years and will be getting top-pairing minutes. What if he doesn't recover to the player he was before his mother died? If he is as bad as he was the last two seasons, we're going to be in a world of crap.

Then you've re-signed Rozsival, a $4 million player, to a $5 million contract. Now, guess what happens if Redden is a flop? It's back to Rozsival on the first pairing, which isn't where he belongs. He's already shown he can't handle playing against opposing teams' top players, nor can he run the power play. Then what? Wait till Sanguinetti is ready?

We'll be ok if Redden turns out well, but that's a really big IF.

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07-09-2008, 06:03 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
cylcing out of the Rangers last season. And I do think that often a successful cycle is aided by the ability to win a battle along the boards. OK, that doesn't make a lot of sense. But there's only so much you can go around in circles with the puck before the defense closes in on you and you need to break free, win a battle, and take advantage of what should be an odd-man situation down low so it doesn't end up being a cycle that doesn't generate an opportunity. Jagr cycled real well with Straka and Nylander two and three years ago, as well as with Prucha, Avery, Hossa at times, Dubi, Ruca and others. Part of the reason was that Jagr was able to attract a couple guys and hold them off and move the puck. Part of the reason was others' ability to stickhandle. And part of the reason was that others occasionally won the battle. Point is, at some point, someone's going to have to win the battle and that's part of what I'm looking for.
I think with Jagr gone, you'll see even less cycling. You'll see a different approach on offense. I expect more give-and-go drops and quick shots, less patience.

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07-09-2008, 06:06 PM
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Sting...

one person I don't ascribe a big if to is Redden. It's an if because I can easily see Bruce Driver in him, but he still is a talented hockey player who's smart and moves the puck well. If the system is a fast-moving system, he'll fit in fine. If the team falters and the forwards have trouble scoring, he will look ordinary.

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07-09-2008, 06:07 PM
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Great...

drops? So you're talking a lot of turnovers. Go forward with the puck...

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07-09-2008, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
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drops? So you're talking a lot of turnovers. Go forward with the puck...
i think he meant drops to the trailer

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07-09-2008, 06:58 PM
  #67
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Fletch - as always I enjoyed your evenhanded (or should I say "fence-sitting"?) response. But the lineup you threw out on behalf of the group I have (perhaps provactively) dubbed doomsayers falls in line with the one I threw out previously.

Those who are discontent - you wanted to add Orpik? At what price? Apparently we already offered more than Pittsburgh did to keep him. So what would we have had to do, $4.75MM per year for 5? Good Lord, imagine how THAT contract would get eviscerated around here... (and as I write that, recall that he was the ONE guy I absolutely positively wanted out of FA).

To keep Avery we would've had to match Dallas's offer - i.e. you've then got him for better or worse at $4MM per for 4 years and, oh yeah, you better pray it works out 'cause you can't move him...

Jags? God love him for everything he did while he was here, but that would've been 2 years at $7.5MM per year. (And don't forget that with Jagr & Avery, that's even more of a roadblock to forwards coming up through the system.) More importantly, as I stated earlier, you're keeping a Jagr-centric approach focused on a Jagr who is clearly declining. And THAT didn't work when we had Jagr scoring 123 points. Do Zherdev and Orpik's additions (assuming they would work with the numbers required to keep Jagr & Avery) overcome Jaromir's continuing decline, the disjointed play of the team - AND make up the difference to Pittsburgh & Detroit? No? Then what's the point?

Now, doomsayers, don't take that last sentence and throw it back at me with a "well, is THIS team good enough?" because: 1)I don't think Sather's done and 2) even if he is, it doesn't have to be - because it's a step in the right direction. This is a team that is growing. The old roster plus a couple of tweaks was a stagnant - or perhaps declining - team.

Yes, large-scale turnover is scary, but as I've said several times, we now have a team where the parts fit together much more logically. Furthermore, as Stan Fischler said (am I actually quoting the Maven?!?!? Yikes), this finally takes the power from Jagr and puts it where it belongs, in the coach's hands - and he will have much more ability to mold the team and change things that need to be changed. As a result of those two factors, the chemistry that was missing for most of last year will actually be easier to achieve IMO, despite the number of new faces.

Sting - I understand what you're saying about Redden and Roszival. But what you're missing is that those contract are what the market would bear. You can't look at the signings and say they would've been better at a cheaper price or fewer years - 'cause if that had been an option, I'm sure Slats would've taken it! You can only look at those signings vs. other signings (and assume that the Rangers would have paid the same that those other signings got elsewhere - or more) or NOT signing the players. So where does that leave the team? Don't want Redden's contract? Well, your options were instead to take Streit's (for example) or to simply not have that player on the roster. The same goes for every other UFA we signed. How does that turn out?

Don't get me wrong, folks - I'm not guaranteeing that this will work out. And I'm not ridiculing those who disagree. Maybe it would have been better to avoid some of these contracts and just play the kids (and then IMO hope for good ping pong balls). Maybe Jagr and a few tweaks would've been enough (but I doubt it). But I think the above is a pretty valid counteragrument to those who don't like the moves. I think it's consistent with the team's direction for the last 4 years - which I believe that it is a steady progression upwards. And, as you might imagine from the caption to my username, I am a big fan.

Now, if you can show me a roster of DIFFERENT moves (bearing in mind that you'd have to pay the same price, either in $ for UFAs or assets for trades), then I'm all ears to your point of view.


Last edited by BrooklynRangersFan: 07-09-2008 at 07:03 PM.
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Old
07-09-2008, 07:27 PM
  #68
SupersonicMonkey*
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Thomas J. View Post
I don't fault Orpik at all, I admire that character trait, he took less to stay some place he was happy & comfortable, we need a guy like that on our team.
Not for nothing, but, Paul Mara took less money and less years to stay with the Rangers.

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Old
07-09-2008, 07:56 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner View Post

Jagr carried Dubinsky (I swear somebody wrote yesterday that Dubinsky set up Jagr as much as Jagr setup Dubinsky!!!)
That was me, and, it is correct.


Dubinsky to Jagr:

Playoffs:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=280501013
Jaromir Jagr (4)
Assists: Brandon Dubinsky, Fedor Tyutin

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=280418011
Jaromir Jagr (2) (Power Play)
Assists: Martin Straka, Brandon Dubinsky

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=280411011
Jaromir Jagr (1)
Assists: Michal Rozsival, Brandon Dubinsky

Reg Season:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=280403012
Jaromir Jagr (23) (Power Play)
Assists: Brandon Dubinsky, Michal Rozsival

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=280325013
Jaromir Jagr (20)
Assists: Martin Straka, Brandon Dubinsky

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=280310002
Jaromir Jagr (18)
Assists: Sean Avery, Brandon Dubinsky

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=280223002
Jaromir Jagr (16)
Assists: Fedor Tyutin, Brandon Dubinsky

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=271229021
Jaromir Jagr (10) (Power Play)
Assists: Michal Rozsival, Brandon Dubinsky

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=271129013
Jaromir Jagr (6)
Assists: Brandon Dubinsky, Martin Straka

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=271125013
Jaromir Jagr (5)
Assists: Brandon Dubinsky



Jagr to Dubinsky:

Reg Season:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=271114011
Brandon Dubinsky (2)
Assists: Jaromir Jagr

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=271129013
Brandon Dubinsky (3)
Assists: Martin Straka, Jaromir Jagr

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=280122013
Brandon Dubinsky (7)
Assists: Jaromir Jagr, Fedor Tyutin

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=280216013
Brandon Dubinsky (10)
Assists: Jaromir Jagr

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=280219010
Brandon Dubinsky (11)
Assists: Jaromir Jagr, Michal Rozsival

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=280228007
Brandon Dubinsky (13)
Assists: Jaromir Jagr

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=280330016
Brandon Dubinsky (14) (Power Play)
Assists: Jaromir Jagr, Christian Backman

Playoffs:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=280413013
Brandon Dubinsky (1)
Assists: Jaromir Jagr, Martin Straka

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=280413013
Brandon Dubinsky (2) (Power Play)
Assists: Martin Straka, Jaromir Jagr

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=280418011
Brandon Dubinsky (3) (Empty net)
Assists: Martin Straka, Jaromir Jagr

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=280501013
Brandon Dubinsky (4) (Power Play)
Assists: Martin Straka, Jaromir Jagr


Dubinsky involved with setting up Jagr's goals 10 times this season.

Jagr involved with setting up Dubinsky's goals 11 times this season.


Last edited by SupersonicMonkey*: 07-09-2008 at 08:06 PM.
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Old
07-09-2008, 07:59 PM
  #70
NYR Sting
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
Sting - I understand what you're saying about Redden and Roszival. But what you're missing is that those contract are what the market would bear. You can't look at the signings and say they would've been better at a cheaper price or fewer years - 'cause if that had been an option, I'm sure Slats would've taken it! You can only look at those signings vs. other signings (and assume that the Rangers would have paid the same that those other signings got elsewhere - or more) or NOT signing the players. So where does that leave the team? Don't want Redden's contract? Well, your options were instead to take Streit's (for example) or to simply not have that player on the roster. The same goes for every other UFA we signed. How does that turn out?
I haven't missed anything. If the market value for Wade Redden is 6.5 mill/6 years, then they should have said good day to Mr. Redden. Redden is a classic example, IMO, where the risk far outweighs the reward. I'm far less peeved about Rozsival, especially because I expect that if a year or two down the line a top-scoring winger becomes available, Rozy would be part of the package.

But instead of signing Redden to such a horrid deal, I'd much rather sign a guy who may not be a big name, but is probably a much better deal for the money. Why not sign Streit? At least you know what you're getting and his cap hit is manageable. By the way, I'd also rather have Jason Smith for 2 years than Kalinin for 1. Kalinin's attitude I don't like. The last thing this needs is inconsistency.

Or better yet, I think the best option would have been to trade for Schneider, who has one year left on his contract and may very well be better than Redden, at least for a year. The Ducks are likely to move him and you can probably acquire him for a 2nd or 3rd pick as well as some of the abundance of mid-tier forwards the Rangers have. If he works out, maybe you can sign him to another one-year deal, meanwhile, by the time he retires, Sanguinetti should be ready for duty. At least you don't commit yourself to an iffy Redden for six years with a huge cap hit.

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Old
07-09-2008, 08:50 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PukkuMikku View Post
Not for nothing, but, Paul Mara took less money and less years to stay with the Rangers.

I know & i've been saying since we aqurried Mara he should be re-signed when his contract was up.

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Old
07-09-2008, 09:06 PM
  #72
Fletch
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Pukku....

I think you're confusing 'getting an assist' with 'setting someone up'. Two totally different concepts, as you know.

Leetch - I know what he meant - any drop pass is dangerous. Too often, the other team ends up being the trailer. Move the puck forward, unless you happen to be extremely talented.

BRF - I'll get back to you on that - my wife and I are arguing about high school for our 20 month old kid.

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Old
07-09-2008, 09:32 PM
  #73
Son of Steinbrenner
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PukkuMikku View Post
That was me, and, it is correct.


Dubinsky to Jagr:

Playoffs:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=280501013
Jaromir Jagr (4)
Assists: Brandon Dubinsky, Fedor Tyutin

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=280418011
Jaromir Jagr (2) (Power Play)
Assists: Martin Straka, Brandon Dubinsky

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=280411011
Jaromir Jagr (1)
Assists: Michal Rozsival, Brandon Dubinsky

Reg Season:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=280403012
Jaromir Jagr (23) (Power Play)
Assists: Brandon Dubinsky, Michal Rozsival

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=280325013
Jaromir Jagr (20)
Assists: Martin Straka, Brandon Dubinsky

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=280310002
Jaromir Jagr (18)
Assists: Sean Avery, Brandon Dubinsky

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=280223002
Jaromir Jagr (16)
Assists: Fedor Tyutin, Brandon Dubinsky

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=271229021
Jaromir Jagr (10) (Power Play)
Assists: Michal Rozsival, Brandon Dubinsky

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=271129013
Jaromir Jagr (6)
Assists: Brandon Dubinsky, Martin Straka

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=271125013
Jaromir Jagr (5)
Assists: Brandon Dubinsky



Jagr to Dubinsky:

Reg Season:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=271114011
Brandon Dubinsky (2)
Assists: Jaromir Jagr

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=271129013
Brandon Dubinsky (3)
Assists: Martin Straka, Jaromir Jagr

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=280122013
Brandon Dubinsky (7)
Assists: Jaromir Jagr, Fedor Tyutin

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=280216013
Brandon Dubinsky (10)
Assists: Jaromir Jagr

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=280219010
Brandon Dubinsky (11)
Assists: Jaromir Jagr, Michal Rozsival

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=280228007
Brandon Dubinsky (13)
Assists: Jaromir Jagr

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=280330016
Brandon Dubinsky (14) (Power Play)
Assists: Jaromir Jagr, Christian Backman

Playoffs:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=280413013
Brandon Dubinsky (1)
Assists: Jaromir Jagr, Martin Straka

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=280413013
Brandon Dubinsky (2) (Power Play)
Assists: Martin Straka, Jaromir Jagr

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=280418011
Brandon Dubinsky (3) (Empty net)
Assists: Martin Straka, Jaromir Jagr

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=280501013
Brandon Dubinsky (4) (Power Play)
Assists: Martin Straka, Jaromir Jagr


Dubinsky involved with setting up Jagr's goals 10 times this season.

Jagr involved with setting up Dubinsky's goals 11 times this season.
Ask youself this question....

When Montreal played the Rangers did they put Komisarek against the 1st line because it had Dubinsky on it? Are you trying to honestly say that Dubinsky is as talented or AS GOOD as Jagr?

Also....Ask yourself this question..

How many chances did Dubinsky blow when the pair were together at the start of the season? Also how many chances did Dubinsky create for Jagr?


I love Dubinskys game...he's untouchable and I agree with your opinion that he's going to be as good as Brind'Amour, but your manipulating the stats when they clearly don't tell the whole story....

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Old
07-09-2008, 09:42 PM
  #74
SupersonicMonkey*
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
I think you're confusing 'getting an assist' with 'setting someone up'. Two totally different concepts, as you know.

Leetch - I know what he meant - any drop pass is dangerous. Too often, the other team ends up being the trailer. Move the puck forward, unless you happen to be extremely talented.

BRF - I'll get back to you on that - my wife and I are arguing about high school for our 20 month old kid.
Obviously, and i am not confusing it. I've been playing long enough and been watching long enough to know the difference. The argument is being brought upon that Dubinsky couldn't hope to put up the same 40 points or more without Jagr. All i did was simply put forth facts to debunk it. And prove that while Jagr did play a factor, Dubinsky played an equal part of rejuvenating Jagr and getting HIS production to where it was, save the playoffs.

Dubinsky creates his own space, and creates his own opportunities.

The argument that Dubinsky is nothing without Jagr is baseless and flat out wrong.

Most of the goals Dubinsky scores is by getting open and being in the right place. Also, by taking quick shots. Irregardless of who his linemates are.

Does it help that he had Jagr on his line to help him develop through his rookie season? Absolutely. But he does not NEED Jagr.

It is really immature and baseless to just "state" otherwise. Present something hard to support it.

Look through tape, Dubinsky controllingt he puck along the boards and behind the goal line created just as much opportunity for his teammates as Jagr's presence created space for teammates.

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07-09-2008, 09:49 PM
  #75
Fletch
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Considering you presented facts....

that are points he tallied while playing with Jagr, I don't think anything was debunked. It's almost like saying Nylander 80 points without Jagr or a Jagr-type when his career best was 64 and he was at 79 and 83 with Jagr. He had assists - he assisted on most of Jagr's goals - but let's be honest - playing with Jagr you get extra room to skate. You get the puck handed to you in position to shoot. You give the puck to Jagr in a harmless way and he beats a couple guys then a goalie for a goal. If you want to give Dubi credit for that, fine, but personally I give Jagr a lot of credit and with the same amount of ice time playing with, say, Shanny and Dawes, he gets a fair amount less points. One question: did Jagr benefit from playing with Hossa a couple years ago when he went on a tear or did Hossa benefit from playing with Jagr?

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