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Old
07-09-2008, 08:51 PM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner View Post
Ask youself this question....

When Montreal played the Rangers did they put Komisarek against the 1st line because it had Dubinsky on it? Are you trying to honestly say that Dubinsky is as talented or AS GOOD as Jagr?

Also....Ask yourself this question..

How many chances did Dubinsky blow when the pair were together at the start of the season? Also how many chances did Dubinsky create for Jagr?


I love Dubinskys game...he's untouchable and I agree with your opinion that he's going to be as good as Brind'Amour, but your manipulating the stats when they clearly don't tell the whole story....
Ask yourself this question: Is ANY of that relevant to the argument that Dubinsky is useless without Jagr?

Answer: No.

You are reaching with this. Komisarek has NOTHING to do with this.

Match ups have NOTHING to do with this.


Ask yourself this: Did Dubinsky play against opponents #1 shutdown guys when on the ice with Jagr? Yes.

This is subjective.


How many chances did ANYONE blow. The simple fact is this: Dubinsky can hold his own. He has proved it. He didnt just prove it while playing with Jagr, he proved it while playing with the likes of Dawes and Callahan.

This is a 6-1, 210 pounder that can fend for himself.

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07-09-2008, 08:58 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
that are points he tallied while playing with Jagr, I don't think anything was debunked. It's almost like saying Nylander 80 points without Jagr or a Jagr-type when his career best was 64 and he was at 79 and 83 with Jagr. He had assists - he assisted on most of Jagr's goals - but let's be honest - playing with Jagr you get extra room to skate. You get the puck handed to you in position to shoot. You give the puck to Jagr in a harmless way and he beats a couple guys then a goalie for a goal. If you want to give Dubi credit for that, fine, but personally I give Jagr a lot of credit and with the same amount of ice time playing with, say, Shanny and Dawes, he gets a fair amount less points. One question: did Jagr benefit from playing with Hossa a couple years ago when he went on a tear or did Hossa benefit from playing with Jagr?
Just like Jagr couldn't possibly play without Nylander, right?

I thought it was Nylander that was creating everything for Jagr.... remember that argument? All of a sudden it is flipped and Jagr was the one doing it for Nylander?

These arguments are subjective.


Each player provides something for the other. it is not a one way street.


Dubinsky created just as much for Jagr as Jagr created for Dubinsky.

It was Dubinsky who got Jagr's game to where it needed to be. No? Gomez and Drury couldn't do it, right?


I love Jagr, he was my favorite Ranger, but he is not the end all, be all of everyone else on the team.

It helps to have that superstar powerhouse, like Jagr, but it does not mean the other players are going to drop in production or flop.

Dubinsky can fend for himself.


One could also make the argument that having Jagr on Dubinsky's wing HURT him. Dubinsky started referring to Jagr with the puck, instead of shooting it.

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07-09-2008, 09:03 PM
  #78
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SoS's points are relevant...

if Jagr wasn't playing with Dubi, top defenses would focus on Gomez, hence the rest of the league thought Jagr was the threat, not Dubi. When Jagr wasn't with Dubi other teams focused on Jagr, not Dubi. Perhaps other teams aren't very bright but they thought it was important to stop Jagr first, not Dubi. I assume one can deduce that Dubi would've benefitted more from playing with Jagr than the other way around. Sorry there isn't a hard fact to support that, but I think some coaches in the league would share that same opinion.

Don't forget also, Prucha scored 2 more PP goals than Dubi scored goals all season while playing with Jagr - don't underestimate what Jagr can do for his linemates.

And let's talk about this rejuvination. You do realize that Jagr started the season scoring 15 points in 17 games. That puts him on pace for 74 points. Dubi had two points, so he had nothing to do with Jagr's early season points. So at some point in this season, Jagr was on pace for more points than he ended up with. Personally, I think the guy slumped during the season, and slumped often. If Dubi rejuvinated him, and by rejuvination I assume you mean the Jagr of a couple seasons ago, why did he begin the season at a faster pace than he finished the season as a whole? He had slumps. Who's to say it was Dubi who ended those slumps?

I don't know who said Dubi's nothing without Jagr, because I don't agree with that, but at the same time I can't sit here and think that Dubi rejuvinated Jagr and was as important to Jagr's production as Jagr was to Dubi's.

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07-09-2008, 09:05 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PukkuMikku View Post
Ask yourself this question: Is ANY of that relevant to the argument that Dubinsky is useless without Jagr?

Answer: No.

You are reaching with this. Komisarek has NOTHING to do with this.

Match ups have NOTHING to do with this.


Ask yourself this: Did Dubinsky play against opponents #1 shutdown guys when on the ice with Jagr? Yes.

This is subjective.


How many chances did ANYONE blow. The simple fact is this: Dubinsky can hold his own. He has proved it. He didnt just prove it while playing with Jagr, he proved it while playing with the likes of Dawes and Callahan.

This is a 6-1, 210 pounder that can fend for himself.
Who is saying Dubinsky is useless without Jagr? Has anybody actually posted that on this board?

The point is Dubinsky benefited more from playing with Jagr than the other way around. What exactly did Dubinsky do away from Jagr?

Of course Dubinsky played against shut down players but who were the shut down players keyed on? Dubinsky or Jagr?

I disagree with you that matchups have nothing to do with it...This isn't EHM matchups are part of the game (something I'm sure you know since you play.) wondering if Dubinsky is ready to be THE MAN is a legit question..isn't it?

Didn't we have a long wait for Dubinsky 1st goal? Didn't Dubinksy really put it all together when he was paired with Jagr for the 2nd time?


Dubinsky can hold his own but to say he setup Jagr as much as Jagr setup him isn't really true....It's exaggerating the how good Dubinsky was last year and WORSE it's putting unrealistic expectations on Dubinsky and that's not fair to him...

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07-09-2008, 09:06 PM
  #80
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I don't remember any argument...

that Nylander created everything for Jagr. Who made that? Since Nylander came it was always argued the other way around.

Again - Jagr was on pace for the first 17 games for more points than he ended up with at the end of the season. Personally, Jagr saw the goal line and pushed, in my opinion. Dubi helped, but let's be honest, he wasn't Jagr.

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07-09-2008, 11:23 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post
There are a number of folks who have been posting recently decrying the Rangers' offseason (Radek27, Bleed Ranger Blue, Blackburn2727, etc.). Personally, I am very pleased with the moves so far (and expect one more to clear up the forward glut), but you obviously wanted to see Slats do (or perhaps not do?) something else. So I have a question:

If you don't like the direction the team has taken... exactly what lineup DID you want to see? (Please refrain from goofball responses like trading Hollweg for Gaborik.)
It started great for me. I loved the Zherdev deal that actually gave us some extra cap room while also giving us two really good players. LOVED the idea of a one two punch of JJ and Zherdev.

To me you let Rozsival walk you can bring back Jags. Obviously the plan was to bring back Mara, at a great price I might add would the top four look much worse with Mara in there instead of Rozy's?

I thought the team was very good last season and didn't think they needed to blow the team up like they did. The team just needed a defensive upgrade (hi Redden) and maybe an upgrade at wing (hi Naslund to replace Straka) and I thought thats where we stop. Blowing the team up, letting go your captain, letting Avery walk, counting on kids who did good last year to step it up even more, it's just too many question marks for me. Law of averages says atleast one of these things go wrong. I'm all for being positive, like I said i'm gonna root for them just as hard as I rooted for the team last year, but at the same time my expectations aren't going to be very hi. The thing that kills me most on here is it's seriously kool aid drinking at times. I mean moves are great before even thinking about the effects it's gonna have. Oh Zherdev scored 60 points last year? Well lets put him on our first line and he will get 90. I mean c'mon he's only 23 so he will get better right? Same for Dubinsky who lost his winger and mentor who by the way happens to be one of the greatest players of all time. Also no one here is Renney, so unless I hear Tom say Drury is being put on wing I don't believe it. Right now he is a center on this team which means Duby is right now 3rd on the depth chart. I think he has too much talent to be on the 3rd line.

And I really hope that Shanny isn't brought back either, if we are going in this different direction he has no spot on this team. Ditto Hollwood.

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Old
07-09-2008, 11:33 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PukkuMikku View Post
That was me, and, it is correct.


Dubinsky to Jagr:

Playoffs:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=280501013
Jaromir Jagr (4)
Assists: Brandon Dubinsky, Fedor Tyutin

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=280418011
Jaromir Jagr (2) (Power Play)
Assists: Martin Straka, Brandon Dubinsky

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=280411011
Jaromir Jagr (1)
Assists: Michal Rozsival, Brandon Dubinsky

Reg Season:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=280403012
Jaromir Jagr (23) (Power Play)
Assists: Brandon Dubinsky, Michal Rozsival

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=280325013
Jaromir Jagr (20)
Assists: Martin Straka, Brandon Dubinsky

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=280310002
Jaromir Jagr (18)
Assists: Sean Avery, Brandon Dubinsky

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=280223002
Jaromir Jagr (16)
Assists: Fedor Tyutin, Brandon Dubinsky

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=271229021
Jaromir Jagr (10) (Power Play)
Assists: Michal Rozsival, Brandon Dubinsky

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=271129013
Jaromir Jagr (6)
Assists: Brandon Dubinsky, Martin Straka

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=271125013
Jaromir Jagr (5)
Assists: Brandon Dubinsky



Jagr to Dubinsky:

Reg Season:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=271114011
Brandon Dubinsky (2)
Assists: Jaromir Jagr

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=271129013
Brandon Dubinsky (3)
Assists: Martin Straka, Jaromir Jagr

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=280122013
Brandon Dubinsky (7)
Assists: Jaromir Jagr, Fedor Tyutin

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=280216013
Brandon Dubinsky (10)
Assists: Jaromir Jagr

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=280219010
Brandon Dubinsky (11)
Assists: Jaromir Jagr, Michal Rozsival

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=280228007
Brandon Dubinsky (13)
Assists: Jaromir Jagr

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=280330016
Brandon Dubinsky (14) (Power Play)
Assists: Jaromir Jagr, Christian Backman

Playoffs:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=280413013
Brandon Dubinsky (1)
Assists: Jaromir Jagr, Martin Straka

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=280413013
Brandon Dubinsky (2) (Power Play)
Assists: Martin Straka, Jaromir Jagr

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=280418011
Brandon Dubinsky (3) (Empty net)
Assists: Martin Straka, Jaromir Jagr

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/boxscore?gameId=280501013
Brandon Dubinsky (4) (Power Play)
Assists: Martin Straka, Jaromir Jagr


Dubinsky involved with setting up Jagr's goals 10 times this season.

Jagr involved with setting up Dubinsky's goals 11 times this season.


Only a super homer would say that on a line of Straka-Dubinsky-Jagr that Dubinsky is the best player on that line. This Jagr bashing crap is really getting annoying.

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Old
07-09-2008, 11:35 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PukkuMikku View Post
Just like Jagr couldn't possibly play without Nylander, right?

I thought it was Nylander that was creating everything for Jagr.... remember that argument? All of a sudden it is flipped and Jagr was the one doing it for Nylander?

These arguments are subjective.


Each player provides something for the other. it is not a one way street.


Dubinsky created just as much for Jagr as Jagr created for Dubinsky.

It was Dubinsky who got Jagr's game to where it needed to be. No? Gomez and Drury couldn't do it, right?


I love Jagr, he was my favorite Ranger, but he is not the end all, be all of everyone else on the team.

It helps to have that superstar powerhouse, like Jagr, but it does not mean the other players are going to drop in production or flop.

Dubinsky can fend for himself.


One could also make the argument that having Jagr on Dubinsky's wing HURT him. Dubinsky started referring to Jagr with the puck, instead of shooting it.
I think your confusing chemistry with talent man.

And Dubinsky can fend for himself, on the 3rd line.

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07-09-2008, 11:38 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McRanger View Post
Aside from the playoffs Jagr WAS a star as well.
The playoffs are kind of important.

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07-09-2008, 11:40 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianLeetch2 View Post
Do you think the devils have better youth then the rangers???
I'd give the edge to the Rangers but I don't think it is nearly as pronounced as some others do.

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07-09-2008, 11:44 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by bogans View Post
Star was used in my post as a classification, while superstar was another. A guy who has consistently been an all-star in this league is a star in my opinion. Naslund, Redden and Gomer are all stars. Drury is a star because of the intangibles that he brings to the table rather than his point production. All are stars in this league.

Superstar is another level. Jagr used to be our superstar. Each team needs one, and the team is built around that one guy's skillset usually. The team was built around Jagr for the last three years. Lundqvist is now our superstar, this is a transition year, but if he plays up to that level, this team is built to be a contender this year or next.

When your team is built for a superstar goaltender you need guys who can score, but those first line scoring wingers become less important, because the game becomes a totally different game. As I said in my previous post, look at the Devils, they have never had a superstar scoring winger. Nobody they ever had, other than defenseman could be classified as a superstar and turns out to be much worse when they leave their team. They had star level forwards, just like our team has right now. It is built for success around their superstar player, Henrik Lundqvist
But the Devils had two superstar defensemen in their prime at the same time. The importance of that can not be overemphasized. They also had great overall team toughness.

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07-09-2008, 11:46 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by bogans View Post
I can fault him all I want, who the **** would choose the Penguins over the New York Rangers???? Dumbass
Someone who was looking forward to hoisting the Cup?

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07-10-2008, 08:55 AM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Radek27 View Post
Only a super homer would say that on a line of Straka-Dubinsky-Jagr that Dubinsky is the best player on that line. This Jagr bashing crap is really getting annoying.
Super homer...

The extent of immaturity on this board is staggering.

First of all, READING COMPREHENSION.

Nowhere in that post was it stated that Dubinsky was the best on the line.

What was stated is that Dubinsky provided just as much for Jagr as Jagr provided for Dubinsky.

Each linemate provides something for the others.

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07-10-2008, 08:58 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Radek27 View Post
I think your confusing chemistry with talent man.

And Dubinsky can fend for himself, on the 3rd line.
No, i'm really not.

Dubinsky has a ton of Talent.

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07-10-2008, 09:17 AM
  #90
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Pukka...

you're basically saying that on the line Dubi and Jagr were 1 and 1a. You didn't say he was the best, but you said he was as good as Jagr, correct? That's where you totally lose me.

The concept of a player providing something for another player is a concept I understand. Jagr's points would have been less than had Betts centered the line instead of Dubi. I get that. But I'm sure if you asked the entire league - coaches, defensemen and forwards - who on that line they focused mostly on, I'm going to guess it was Jagr. And if Jagr is the focus, I'm assuming he's carry a bigger workload than his linemates. And if he's the focus, he has to work harder for his results. And if he is the focus, his linemates are a beneficiary of that focus. To me, that's providing more to your linemates than your linemates provide. Apples to apples, if they can be compared, Jagr's linemates and defensemen will benefit more playing with Jagr than playing with Dubi. One thing your analysis didn't show was the points that both scored when not playing with each other, or that Jagr scored with Dubi on his line but Dubi was not a part of. So your analysis is still incomplete.

If you don't agree, then fine, but I think you take some of your comments in this conversation by talking about semantics taking things to extremes that nobody suggested (Dubi is useless without Jagr - where did that come from?

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07-10-2008, 09:21 AM
  #91
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Jagr was the best skater on the team since his arrival in 2004.

No one can debate that.

(I say skater, because an argument could be made that Lundqvist has been consistently the best player on the ice for the Rangers over the last 3 years).

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07-10-2008, 09:31 AM
  #92
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OK...

and Dubi will do just fine by himself and will blossom into a nice NHL player`...glad we made progress...

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