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Old
07-10-2008, 02:30 PM
  #76
Ozymandias
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moester View Post
I find this thread pretty funny.

Sure I think that Montreal has been drafting well in the last 7-8 years...but comparing Montreal to Detroit, saying how Montreal is a better drafting team...Lets wait until Montreal is a perennial contender for both the President's cup and the Stanley cup with minimal trades and free agent signings (relatively speaking) before we start comparing ourselves with Detroit.

I think Montreal is a good team, that they're a contender and have the potential to reach Detroit's level in the near future. But right now we're not there, and its not 4-5 good years of drafting that's going to prove that. Because even if we compare from 1998-now we're still forgetting that that Detroit has been competitive since before then. If we were to extend that timeline a bit, Detroit's dominace in the draft would come out much more clearly.
I missed the part where Detroit made 'minimal' trades. It was probably just a coincidence that they lost all those early picks, they made big blowout sales of their picks ""1 for the price of 4!!! Come take them we are generous""

Please next time, check what you are talking about before stating such BS.

Detroit won those cups because they made a lot of important trades, and signed upportune UFAs. Were their management the best ? you bet so. Also, many of their picks that made them win 3 out of the 4 last cups stemed from the period when the Habs won their last cup and the Wings weren't a good team (Yzerman, Lidstrom, Fedorov).

And the argument isn't that Montreal's drafting is better, but it's quite close to be un-par right now and maybe surpassing them in the years to come with the picks made in 05-06-07 and 08...

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07-10-2008, 02:41 PM
  #77
Fido22
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Hummm, guys, are we really trying to say that Detroit drafting well is a myth?


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Old
07-10-2008, 02:55 PM
  #78
One Trick Pony
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Here's another stat for you
Cups won by Montreal between 1998 and now: 0
Cups won by Detroit between 1998 and now: at least 14

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Old
07-10-2008, 02:56 PM
  #79
Ozymandias
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RabbinsDuck View Post
In post #52 I count ten red names. Seven of them were seleceted before Detroit had a pick.

Do it with me:

7 divided by 10 = 70%

Here is a handy tool if you need further help:

http://eri.gg.uwyo.edu/toolbar/calculator/divide.htm
I think I'm much better at making calculations because the total number is not 10.

Before making your stupid remarks try to get your facts straight. Where did you take the 10? that post only mentioned the 3 first rounds as per the other Wings fan statement.

And your own statement was that "70% of your successful picks came before the wings even had a pick those years."

Post #52 only included picks in the first 3 rounds...

you might want to check the later rounds before making your statement (as it said 70% of your succesfull picks.. shouldn't that include the later rounds or are you inept at making rational conclusions?) or maybe you have a hard following a conversation.

Maybe this could help you :

http://www.healthbolt.net/2007/11/12...-pill-must-go/


Oh and BTW, since you don't seem to be the brightest of the bunch, you might want to explore your OS a bit, all OS have an integrated calculator.


So, including all picks from 2001 to 2005 (as per your statement that said "of your succesful picks)

Before Detroit could draft : (I don't know where you got the 7 number as there are only 6 of them)
Komisarek, Perezhogin, Higgins, (A) Kostitsyn, Lapierre and Price.

Who is the seventh player???
You might want to check this, I don't know if you're going to be able to make the correlations, it seems a bit too much for you...
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/t...r00006929.html
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/t...r00005492.html

After Detroit could draft :
Plekanec (drafted after Grigorenko), O'Byrne (drafted after Howard), Halak (drafted in 9th round), Grabovski (drafted after Franzen and McGrath), Streit (drafted in 9th round), Latendresse (drafted after Kindl and Abdelkader), (S) Kostitsyn (drafted in the 7th round).

That makes it 6, not 7. 6 out of 13.

That's 46,153846% of our succesful picks made before Detroit could draft.

Quite a long way from your 70%

You can't even count from 1 to 10 right, how can I even convince you that my previous post stands...

Oh right, you rather not take into account facts, instead you repeat the same statement.


Last edited by Ozymandias: 07-10-2008 at 03:03 PM.
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Old
07-10-2008, 03:16 PM
  #80
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This is pretty embarassing.

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Old
07-10-2008, 03:33 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Astaroth View Post
This is pretty embarassing.
It might be because I'm so stressed out I'm ready to snap...but that struck me as flat out hilarious.

All of these long winded posts and then a random.

"This is pretty embarassing."

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Old
07-10-2008, 03:33 PM
  #82
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Quote:
I don't know where you got the 7 number as there are only 6 of them... Who is the seventh player???
Ok! Let's count together!!

2001 Draft
1/7 - Mike Komisarek 1
1/25 - Alexander Perezhogin 2
Both well before Detroit even had a pick. (#62)

2002 Draft
1/14 - Chris Higgins 3
Before Detroit had a pick. (#58)

2003 Draft
1/10 - Andreď Kostitsyn 4
2/61 - Maxim Lapierre 5
Detroit's first pick was #64

2004 Draft
1/18 - Kyle Chipchura 6
Detroit's first pick was #97

2005 Draft
1/5 - Carey Price 7
Detroit first picked #19

Seven. Good job! You did it!!! Seven of Montreal's successes were drafted before Detroit even had a pick.

If you want to include the other 3 picked after the first three rounds (only 3???), fine... those were not included in the original post but we'll go ahead and do it.

7/13 is still over 50% of Montreal's successful picks during that period were before Detroit had a single pick.

PS -- This tone is only directed at one poster, not the Canadien fan base.

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Old
07-10-2008, 03:36 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RabbinsDuck View Post
Ok! Let's count together!!

2001 Draft
1/7 - Mike Komisarek 1
1/25 - Alexander Perezhogin 2
Both well before Detroit even had a pick. (#62)

2002 Draft
1/14 - Chris Higgins 3
Before Detroit had a pick. (#58)

2003 Draft
1/10 - Andreď Kostitsyn 4
2/61 - Maxim Lapierre 5
Detroit's first pick was #64

2004 Draft
1/18 - Kyle Chipchura 6
Detroit's first pick was #97

2005 Draft
1/5 - Carey Price 7
Detroit first picked #19

Seven. Good job! You did it!!! Seven of Montreal's successes were drafted before Detroit even had a pick.

If you want to include the other 3 picked after the first three rounds (only 3???), fine... those were not included in the original post but we'll go ahead and do it.

7/13 is still over 50% of Montreal's successful picks during that period were before Detroit had a single pick.

PS -- This tone is only directed at one poster, not the Canadien fan base.
No, no, no, we were right. Detroit sucks at drafting.

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Old
07-10-2008, 03:48 PM
  #84
RabbinsDuck
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There was an article on si.com that stated Detroit's drafting was "pure, dumb luck" -- by the same guy who asserted Burke was unequivocally the #1 GM of 2008.

Montreal has drafted really well... I just do not think the way to prove so is by trashing the drafting of the Red Wings.

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07-10-2008, 03:50 PM
  #85
Fido22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RabbinsDuck View Post
Montreal has drafted really well... I just do not think the way to prove so is by comparing their drafting to the Red Wings.
Agreed. Two teams that have drafted really well lately.

IMHO, drafting Zetterberg and Dats hands it to the Wings. No question.

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07-10-2008, 03:53 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RabbinsDuck View Post
There was an article on si.com that stated Detroit's drafting was "pure, dumb luck" -- by the same guy who asserted Burke was unequivocally the #1 GM of 2008.

Montreal has drafted really well... I just do not think the way to prove so is by trashing the drafting of the Red Wings.
Anyone who would trash the way the Wings have drafted doesn't know hockey.

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Old
07-10-2008, 04:19 PM
  #87
Ozymandias
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RabbinsDuck View Post
Ok! Let's count together!!

2001 Draft
1/7 - Mike Komisarek 1
1/25 - Alexander Perezhogin 2
Both well before Detroit even had a pick. (#62)

2002 Draft
1/14 - Chris Higgins 3
Before Detroit had a pick. (#58)

2003 Draft
1/10 - Andreď Kostitsyn 4
2/61 - Maxim Lapierre 5
Detroit's first pick was #64

2004 Draft
1/18 - Kyle Chipchura 6
Detroit's first pick was #97

2005 Draft
1/5 - Carey Price 7
Detroit first picked #19

Seven. Good job! You did it!!! Seven of Montreal's successes were drafted before Detroit even had a pick.

If you want to include the other 3 picked after the first three rounds (only 3???), fine... those were not included in the original post but we'll go ahead and do it.

7/13 is still over 50% of Montreal's successful picks during that period were before Detroit had a single pick.

PS -- This tone is only directed at one poster, not the Canadien fan base.
Actually that would make it 7 out of 14... That's exactly 50%...

Let's count

Komisarek 1
Perezhogin 2
Plekanec 3
Higgins 4
A Kostitsyn 5
Lapierre 6
O'Byrne 7
Halak 8
Chipchura 9
Grabovski 10
Streit 11
Price 12
Latendresse 13
S Kostitsyn 14

BTW... you said "(only 3???)" yet that's THE SAME number of succesful picks after the 3rd round by the Wings in that time period (between 2001 and 2005)(Helm, Quincey, Meech) and the Habs picks are of a much better quality (Streit, Halak and S Kostitsyn)...

You come here trying to sound all righteous saying the Habs aren't that good because they make all their 'succesfull draft picks' before Detroit can pick, but from the looks of it, after the 3rd round the Habs seem to be making better homeruns then you did in that period (2001 to 2005), in fact, your last homerun after the 3rd round goes back to 98 and 99 when Zetterberg and Datsyuk got drafted. That's almost a decade ago. So even though the Habs have most of their succesful picks in the 3 first rounds and before Detroit could pick, the Habs manage to do better in round 4 and higher since 2001.

So what's your point?

Also proven in another post, that you didn't respond to, because it showed that the Habs success rate in the first 3 rounds was as good as Detroit since 98. And in 98 we also did homeruns after the 3rd round too, in Ryder and Markov (not saying they are as good as Zetterberg or Datsyuk, although for Markov it is debatable) and others from much more recent drafts might turn out to be as good of homeruns as your two last (S Kostitsyn)

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

And for anybody else, if you reread any of my posts on this thread you will see this, I'm nothing saying the Habs were better at drafting, but they are up there with Detroit and Colorado in the last decade or so.


Last edited by Ozymandias: 07-10-2008 at 04:25 PM.
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Old
07-10-2008, 04:23 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RabbinsDuck View Post
There was an article on si.com that stated Detroit's drafting was "pure, dumb luck" -- by the same guy who asserted Burke was unequivocally the #1 GM of 2008.

Montreal has drafted really well... I just do not think the way to prove so is by trashing the drafting of the Red Wings.
I never said that Detroit's drafting sucks... where did you get that?

I,ve constantly repeated that the Habs drafting is on par with Detroit as shown by my previous posts. Although I do agree that this thread's OP is way off base.

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Old
07-10-2008, 04:25 PM
  #89
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Well we did have a thread discussing whether Detroit drafting well is a myth....so it's kinda normal they would get defensive.

Whether the Habs also drafted well during the same time spans in kinda irrelevant.

But anyway, why I'm I getting involved in this? Carry on.

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Old
07-10-2008, 04:26 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Astaroth View Post
This is pretty embarassing.
Sure is.

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Old
07-10-2008, 04:28 PM
  #91
Ozymandias
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fido22 View Post
Well we did have a thread discussing whether Detroit drafting well is a myth....so it's kinda normal they would get defensive.

Whether the Habs also drafted well during the same time spans in kinda irrelevant.

But anyway, why I'm I getting involved in this? Carry on.
Becaues the debate then went on to whether the Habs were up there with Detroit, as proven by many posters and then Rabbinsduck came and said the Habs aren't that good compared to Detroit because they draft before... But the success rate before they draft and after they draft is the same and his argument was bunk.

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07-10-2008, 04:34 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Actually that would make it 7 out of 14... That's exactly 50%...
Ok. I should never believe anything in your posts. Lesson learned.
http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=1...7&postcount=80

Quote:
... you said "(only 3???)" yet that's THE SAME number of succesful picks after the 3rd round by the Wings in that time period (between 2001 and 2005)(Helm, Quincey, Meech)
Add Bykov and Ericsson.

Here, I will give you this:
Habs have drafted better than Detroit in the early rounds, when Detroit did not have any picks in those rounds

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Old
07-10-2008, 04:35 PM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Becaues the debate then went on to whether the Habs were up there with Detroit, as proven by many posters and then Rabbinsduck came and said the Habs aren't that good compared to Detroit because they draft before... But the success rate before they draft and after they draft is the same and his argument was bunk.
Yeah, I hear ya. I think the OP comparing the two in his first post probably lead there.

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Old
07-10-2008, 04:40 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by eliash View Post
Here's another stat for you
Cups won by Montreal between 1998 and now: 0
Cups won by Detroit between 1998 and now: at least 14
Actually Theodore had the Vezina year. I believe he won like 3 cups that year? Can't remember exactly. Did Koivu win one for perseverance after he came back from cancer?

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07-10-2008, 04:44 PM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RabbinsDuck View Post
Ok. I should never believe anything in your posts. Lesson learned.
http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=1...7&postcount=80
That's because I forgot one, and then you forgot to add him to the total too... so we're even??

Quote:
Add Bykov and Ericsson.

Here, I will give you this:
Habs have drafted better than Detroit in the early rounds, when Detroit did not have any picks in those rounds
Those two haven't even played more than 10 games altogether????

At this rate, I could include Valentenko, D'agostini, Stewart, Locke...

Without counting (for the first 3 rounds) Emelin, Korneev who are stuck in Russia...

And Carle who's mostly ready...

And anyway...

Helm, Quincey, Meech, Bykov and Ericsson <<<<<< Streit, Kostitsyn, Halak, Valentenko, D'agostini, Stewart, Locke

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Old
07-10-2008, 04:56 PM
  #96
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Some clarifications

I can see how this didn't turned out like I expected at first. My vision of those numbers was only numbers. Nothing else. While I checked for games, pts and players drafted I didn't involved talent wise.

I was only looking at numbers to justify what Timmins said at the last draft when he said that the prior goal is to find players that can play in the NHL. After that it might be luck, might be good dev by the team or any other reasons that would bring the players to the top.

THough I really like the effort that some of you brought to defend your point and you probably all, from your perspective, was right !

Now, why not try to get a consensus on how we should rate the draft of a team for a period of time. Then we would be able to put up a legible ranking.


Last edited by 1111111111111000: 07-10-2008 at 05:05 PM.
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Old
07-10-2008, 05:01 PM
  #97
Ozymandias
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Originally Posted by keyven View Post
I can see how this didn't turned out like I expected at first. My vision of those numbers was only numbers. Nothing else. While I checked for games, pts and players drafted I didn't involved talent wise.

I was only looking numbers to justify what Timmins said at the last draft we he said that the prior goal is to find players that can play in the NHL. After that it's might be luck, might be good dev by the team or any other reasons that would bring the players to the top.

THough I really like the effort that some of you brought to defend your point and you probably all, from your perspective, right !

Now, why not try to get a consensus on how we should rate the draft of a team for a period of time. Then we would be able to put up a legible ranking.
Montreal and Detroit are without a doubt top 5 for the last decade (1998-2007)

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Old
07-10-2008, 05:26 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Go Habs Go View Post
Actually Theodore had the Vezina year. I believe he won like 3 cups that year? Can't remember exactly. Did Koivu win one for perseverance after he came back from cancer?
No no i was really talking about stanley cups

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07-10-2008, 05:49 PM
  #99
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07-10-2008, 10:02 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Helm1Crosby0 View Post
I'm an Oilers fan.
For now . . .

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