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Van-Atl: All Kovalchuk-Sedin talk here

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Old
07-09-2008, 10:13 PM
  #151
Grub
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Analyzer View Post
Kovalchuk has more goals than both the sedins combined. Seems you 'Nucks fans keep forgetting that, or don't want to admit that.

What's harder, a 50 goal scorer, who could potentially reach 60, or two players who get 70-80 points?
Hahah KOVALCHUK IS IN THE EASIEST DIVISION ......

Sedins play in the NORTH WEST DIVISION...... I bet you never watch any north west division games...

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07-09-2008, 10:22 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by vcx View Post
That's a stupid question.

What's more important for Atlanta, having two guys that will provide them offense or have a star player that will likely take off when the time comes because he's sick and tired of playing with bottom 6 players made out to be top 6 centers?

Ilya will eventually take off, its not a matter of if, more like when. Atlanta should be looking at what they can get. I'm not saying the twins for him is a good package, it's a start though. If Vancouver wants to make a legit push for Kovalchuk, i'd go with the twins + bieksa for Kovalchuk and a pick or a prospect.

Let's not forget what guys like Thornton went for, Boston would be lucky to get the twins for thornton, they settled for much much less. Same with Edmonton for Pronger etc...get my drift?
That's because no other star was struggling, or looking for a change of scenery. Remember the Hossa and Devries for Heatley? Sometimes things can work out.

Vancouver doesn't really need to trade the Sedins, and I wasn't saying that in the sense of why Atlanta should keep him, it was more to how Vancouver fans compare points, but not other areas.

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Originally Posted by MarcBenz View Post
Hahah KOVALCHUK IS IN THE EASIEST DIVISION ......

Sedins play in the NORTH WEST DIVISION...... I bet you never watch any north west division games...
I actually do. I have CBC, every Saturday, they show Northwest games, and I partake in them, unless they're like a lesser team in the West, like Nashville, or Columbus.

Thanks for being ignorant.

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Old
07-09-2008, 11:12 PM
  #153
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Canuck fans (I'm one too) are getting ridiculous here. Kovalchuk is like a somewhat poor-man's Ovechkin that doesn't hit. THINK about how stupid it is to not be willing to give up the Sedins for that for a second.

I would even do the Sedins+Bieksa for Kovalchuk alone, easily.

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07-09-2008, 11:15 PM
  #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2agingmonk View Post
Canuck fans (I'm one too) are getting ridiculous here. Kovalchuk is like a somewhat poor-man's Ovechkin that doesn't hit. THINK about how stupid it is to not be willing to give up the Sedins for that for a second.

I would even do the Sedins+Bieksa for Kovalchuk alone, easily.
In the long run, I make that trade in a heart beat. Problem is when you think about it you're trading two 80-85 point players for one - IN THE SHORT TERM. If we're making a run at this thing with Luongo under contract for 2 more years and (hopefully) Sundin....I would rather have the Sedins around. Another thing is we will never know how good they can be playing with a REAL RIGHT WINGER...we will see this year. I have a funny feeling they are going to explode this season. into 90 point players.

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Old
07-09-2008, 11:58 PM
  #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Untouchable View Post
post lockout scoring


points
d.sedin 229
h.sedin 232

ilya kovalchuk 261
Just throwing this out there

Post lockout goals scored

Sedins together 130
Kovalchuk 146

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Old
07-10-2008, 12:23 AM
  #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2agingmonk View Post
Canuck fans (I'm one too) are getting ridiculous here. Kovalchuk is like a somewhat poor-man's Ovechkin that doesn't hit. THINK about how stupid it is to not be willing to give up the Sedins for that for a second.

I would even do the Sedins+Bieksa for Kovalchuk alone, easily.
Kovy isn't remotely close to the level of Ovechkin.

Kovalchuk reminds me of a slightly-more-talented, less grittier right-handed version of Kovalev.

Ovechkin WILL take over the game whether you like it or not on both ends and will hit guys through the glass for W. Kovalchuk just makes sure he's in the right position to score, which he'll do given the least bit of opportunity.

I still don't do it. Kovalchuk is a great player, but not worth two offensive players who are exceptional in their own right.

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07-10-2008, 12:31 AM
  #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sticknrink View Post
Kovy isn't remotely close to the level of Ovechkin.

Kovalchuk reminds me of a slightly-more-talented, less grittier right-handed version of Kovalev.

Ovechkin WILL take over the game whether you like it or not on both ends and will hit guys through the glass for W. Kovalchuk just makes sure he's in the right position to score, which he'll do given the least bit of opportunity.

I still don't do it. Kovalchuk is a great player, but not worth two offensive players who are exceptional in their own right.
Kovalchuk is less gritty than Kovalev? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAA HAHHAAH
Oh my, how one season changes everything.



There is at least some truth, in my opinion, to what you said about picking his spots now. He's became more of a sniper as the seasons have worn on. As a rookie he was as close to an Ovechkin clone as you'll find.

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Old
07-10-2008, 12:33 AM
  #158
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My one question is where did this rumor come from?

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07-10-2008, 12:35 AM
  #159
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Originally Posted by xtra View Post
My one question is where did this rumor come from?
I swear this rumor started as a speculative thread on the Canucks board here. I've never seen anything along these lines mentioned anywhere else until someone here started a thread, and this random blog picked it up.

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Old
07-10-2008, 12:38 AM
  #160
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Kovalchuk + Most any average player > Sedins. Simple as that. Trading the twins alone for him is a steal. Comparing two guys output to just one is ridiculous.

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07-10-2008, 12:47 AM
  #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyons71 View Post
Kovalchuk + Most any average player > Sedins. Simple as that. Trading the twins alone for him is a steal. Comparing two guys output to just one is ridiculous.
Problem is if they're gearing up for Sundin and Demitra to come on board and take a run at this thing while you have Luongo for 2 more years....it just doesnt make sense to deal them for Kovalchuk. Kovy's a gamebreaker no one is denying that...if things were different im driving the twins to airport at the snap of a finger. But..the twins have been playing with STIFFS their whole career. Whether it be Klatt, Carter, Pyatt - you name it. Those poor ******** havent even had a real top 6 RW to play with ever, which decieves just how good they really are IMO. That will all change this year and they will be rich men come next summer.

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Old
07-10-2008, 01:33 AM
  #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
Problem is if they're gearing up for Sundin and Demitra to come on board and take a run at this thing while you have Luongo for 2 more years....it just doesnt make sense to deal them for Kovalchuk. Kovy's a gamebreaker no one is denying that...if things were different im driving the twins to airport at the snap of a finger. But..the twins have been playing with STIFFS their whole career. Whether it be Klatt, Carter, Pyatt - you name it. Those poor ******** havent even had a real top 6 RW to play with ever, which decieves just how good they really are IMO. That will all change this year and they will be rich men come next summer.
Something else to consider though. And why this move makes sense for both teams.

First off, if there is any truth to Kovalchuk being unhappy in Atlanta I could see them pressured into doing something sooner rather than later. I am sure at a deadline they could get insane value in picks/prospects but Atlanta does need to keep some talent around during the build.

The Sedin's are perfect because they will sign for less. No, I dont have "proof" but based on previous negotiations and the fact they have all but said they prefer to play together and take less. The number bandied about is 5.5 per for what I would guess is 5+ years. As individuals they would command upwards of 7m each. Cap savings in a small Hockey market team is crucial. I could actually see the Twin's happy in the SE and out producing any of their Vancouver total's easily. The skating teams in the NW have tons of trouble containing the Twin's. I bet they have impressive point totals vs Edmonton last year for example.

IMO 2 Twin's have more value than 1 Kovalchuk to the Atlanta franchise.

Here is why it makes sense for Vancouver. First off Kovalchuk is signed for a 6.4M cap hit for 2 more years. Means we could easily fit in the Sundin/Demitra contracts. Also takes care of 2 FA's that are due raises next year.

Kovalchuk - Sundin - Demitra
Raymond - Wellwood - Bernier

First glance the 2nd line looks dicey. And you are right. But each player on that line has shown great potential. Our first line has far greater potential than any line we had last year. The second line is no worse than anything we had last year with the potential to be much better. Worst case we are still better off than before. Best case Wellwood regains form. Bernier keeps developing and Raymond continues the play he brought over the last 40 games of last year.

But it can get better....

Assuming Sedin's for Kovie goes thru. Maybe the Canucks pry Vermette out of Ottawa for a package. Suddenly 2nd line is Raymond - Vermette - Bernier. I personally think that would be an insane 2 line.

Kovalchuk for the Twin's make's sense. For both teams involved. 2 winners in a deal like this.

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07-10-2008, 01:41 AM
  #163
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It's really not fair to compare Kovy to Ovechkin. He's the best forward I've personally seen since Lemieux was tearing it up.

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Old
07-10-2008, 02:33 AM
  #164
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the Sedins are > then Kovalchuck
The GM would have to be crazy to trade them for him straight up.
Im not trying to take anything away from Kovalchuck by the way but people on here seriously underestimate the Sedins.
The Sedins for Kovalchuck and next years 1st is something that would probably be more realistic, especially when next years first has a good chance of being a high one for Atlanta. Though I personally still think that it heavily favors Atlanta.

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07-10-2008, 05:03 AM
  #165
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I seriously wonder how much of Atlanta anyone have seen who posts stuff like
Quote:
Kovalchuk >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sedins
I don't even think its up for debate, Atlanta with the Sedins instead of Kovalchuck would be a better team.

We are talking about Atlanta hear. If it was Montreal, or even say Boston, then it gets interesting. Who would be more valuble for Montreal -- the Sedins or Kovalchuk? I would probably take Kovalchuk.

Atlanta is maybe the team in the entire NHL who got the worst platform in terms of system, "gameplan" and identity. They are team that was built to be able to play a high defense -- like with D's who are good at stepping up on their man at the attacking blueline (Exbly, Sutton and co), and with centers who could cover for thoose D's -- and then wingers that can counterattack after ATL having won the puck high up ice. Thats a classic game plan that have won some cups -- in the pre-lockout NHL. When you can't clutch and grab thoose D's who steps up on their defensive blueline is skated eights around. Atlanta don't get nearly enough turnovers from their high defense to have a meaningful offensive game, their centers aren't picked for their qualitys to handle the puck and everything just falls apart. Look at their shotstatics on;
http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/teams/schedule?team=atl
they are giving up 35+ shots every other night, and way above 40 like once a week.

I can't speak for all teams in the East, but many many teams that play against Atlanta don't have to pay any attention what-so-ever to Ilya Kovalchuk, because if you play a solid team game against them you will outshoot them 45-20 and beat them 4-2 -- even if Kovalchuk is having a great night.

If anyone brings a argument that ATL should keep Kovalchuk, finnish last in the NHL 3 straight years -- get a bunch of prospects with franchise potential, while having Ilya around for 2 more years to keep the fans somewhat interested then I can get the argument.

But with the Sedin's they would have a 1st line who wouldn't just score some goals, they would have a first line that atleast would shave 10-15 "shots- against" off by spending time in the attacking zone. A first line that would enable the line that comes in after them to step on the ice with some momentum -- or atleast do that much more often then what ATL's 1st line in the past have.

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Old
07-10-2008, 06:41 AM
  #166
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Reading the mutual outrage towards the rumours makes me actually believe that Kovalchuk + for Sedin+Sedin could actually become fair trade.

Definetly a strange move, but could actually be fair.

Atlanta is one of the teams that could pay Sedins both big money (5,5-6,5 per) without crippling themselves (further).

The only question from Vancouver's point of view would be losing a bit of debth (something that has been weakness for Canucks already over past years). Still, barring Ovy, there isn't another player in NHL that could bring similar Bure-esque exitement to Vancouver like Kovalchuk could.

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07-10-2008, 06:41 AM
  #167
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I think this is just wishfull thinking by canucks fans hoping the Thrashers will just give the player to the canucks. The twins are okay, but it is going to be a VERY long season in Vancouver and they are going to be desperate not to finish dead last in the league. They have Loungo and that is it. He wont be able to steal them as many games as they would like.

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Old
07-10-2008, 08:54 AM
  #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AY View Post
Yes, line dancing it appears to be.


God I hate that poster

This trade is not gonna happen.

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Old
07-10-2008, 11:12 AM
  #169
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Kovy isn't enough for the sedins. It would have to be something like kovy + enstrom to make it fair.

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07-10-2008, 12:11 PM
  #170
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Kovy isn't enough for the sedins. It would have to be something like kovy + enstrom to make it fair.
Yeah? Good luck with that.

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Old
07-10-2008, 09:24 PM
  #171
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Originally Posted by Bill_Crosby View Post
It's really not fair to compare Kovy to Ovechkin. He's the best forward I've personally seen since Lemieux was tearing it up.
If you give Kovalchuk Ovechkin's body and meanness, I'd say he's a pretty similar player. His shot is without a doubt every bit as good as Ovechkin's, if not better. I'm not saying Kovalchuk is anywhere near as good as Ovechkin overall, but he's similar talent-wise, and basically only about one tier behind a guy like Malkin, if even that.

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