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OT - Detroit drafting well a myth ??

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Old
07-12-2008, 12:03 PM
  #126
Passchendaele
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erika Kostitsyn View Post
Hudler - 58 overall <<<< Sergei Kostitsyn - 200 overall


At worst, you could make a point about Kostitsyn being a bit better than Hudler. But he isn't THAT MUCH better.

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07-12-2008, 12:03 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Yeah, but as I've said before, imagine that draft if would'Ve picked Gagné instead... this would be one of the most succesfull draft by a single team in the history of the NHL... Gagné, Beauchemin Ribeiro, Markov, Ryder. I may be exagerating, but it would be for sure in the top 10 of NHL history.
If quality (along with reality) is the prime criterion, I would select 1971, when the Habs actually picked Lafleur and Robinson.

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07-12-2008, 12:05 PM
  #128
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Markov was a CENTER when he was drafted.

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07-12-2008, 12:17 PM
  #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Passchendaele View Post


At worst, you could make a point about Kostitsyn being a bit better than Hudler. But he isn't THAT MUCH better.
Hudler started producing much later than what SKost has shown... I think there is marked difference between the two.

And I think Erika was rather marking the difference in having Hudler selected 58th overall and Kosty 200 overall... with Kosty being better, this pick is much much better.

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07-12-2008, 12:17 PM
  #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Helm1Crosby0 View Post
He is also 21.

Even if he plays 3rd line, it will be because of hte numbers problem, not because of lack of skill.

He's faster than Draper.
Has better hands than Draper.
Has better anticipation than Draper.
Has better moves than Draper.
He's learning to be a better FO man, he's learning his role on the team from Draper.

But I still say, he will be better than Draper ever was.
Ehh.. He might have a better average than Draper, discluding this year and maybe this upcoming year. You expect him to be able to beat out Franzen, or Filppula ? (one of them has to be a 2nd line centre and Filppula's name has been in some speculation of trades, so that would increase Helm's chance, but Franzen is still there)

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07-12-2008, 12:25 PM
  #131
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yeah well I'll keep Franzen, Filppula, Kronwall instead of Rib, Ryder anyday. Obviously some of you don't think so.. maybe that's why you guys traded them/let them walk for nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Hudler started producing much later than what SKost has shown... I think there is marked difference between the two.

And I think Erika was rather marking the difference in having Hudler selected 58th overall and Kosty 200 overall... with Kosty being better, this pick is much much better.
one could argue Kosty and likes were fluke picks.. just like Dat/Z were fluke


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Old
07-12-2008, 12:27 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post

First off, if you don't consider Markov a superstar in this league (he wasn't chosen on the first all-star team for nothing right?), we should end this discussion right away and you should stop questioning my supposed bias.
Then lets end this discussion. You've illustrated without a doubt throughout this thread that you are borderline laughable homer.

I'm a massive fan of Andrei Markov. He's one of my favorite defensemen in the league. But I don't think for a second he's a super-star blueliner. So I guess we're done talking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Ribeiro should also be considered a NHL superstar/elite player


/end


Last edited by Beakermania*: 07-13-2008 at 06:30 PM.
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Old
07-12-2008, 12:57 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by FerrisRox View Post


/end
If he hadn't missed any games this past season, he would have got the 6th best point total in the league.

What is so funny?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yemack View Post
one could argue Kosty and likes were fluke picks.. just like Dat/Z were fluke
SK told every team that he would only come over to play with his brother.

That's mainly why he was a 7th round pick.


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Old
07-12-2008, 01:01 PM
  #134
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not a myth.

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Old
07-12-2008, 03:50 PM
  #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Analyzer View Post
Ehh.. He might have a better average than Draper, discluding this year and maybe this upcoming year. You expect him to be able to beat out Franzen, or Filppula ? (one of them has to be a 2nd line centre and Filppula's name has been in some speculation of trades, so that would increase Helm's chance, but Franzen is still there)
I wouldn't be suprised to see Helm stay a year in the AHL or centre a 4th line next year in Detroit. He can easily play LW as he has previously in the WHL.

Yes, I do see Helm going about Flip and possibly Franzen. Why? Speed. Helm is faster than Flip and Franzen. He can also control the puck at crazy high speeds. Franzen is a power forward. Helm is not.

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07-12-2008, 09:40 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Helm1Crosby0 View Post
I wouldn't be suprised to see Helm stay a year in the AHL or centre a 4th line next year in Detroit. He can easily play LW as he has previously in the WHL.

Yes, I do see Helm going about Flip and possibly Franzen. Why? Speed. Helm is faster than Flip and Franzen. He can also control the puck at crazy high speeds. Franzen is a power forward. Helm is not.
So can Flippula from what I've seen.

Franzen is a power forward, the big body infront of the net, the big body down the middle, kind of more important than a smaller, speeder one...

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07-13-2008, 01:24 AM
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FerrisRox View Post
Then lets end this discussion. You've illustrated without a doubt throughout this thread that you are borderline laughable homer.

I'm a massive fan of Andrei Markov. He's one of my favorite defensemen in the league. But I don't think for a second he's a super-star blueliner. So I guess we're done talking.
Yeah, quite a homer I am when I actually bring strong arguments to support my points, contrarily to you. Your reply stinks of a loser's hit and run. You took the easy road because you know full well that you couldn't come up with strong arguments to counter my many points that have built a strong case to show my first assertion was pretty close to the truth and that your own quick reply held a massive, ridiculous counter statement without any substance to back it up. "Borderline laughable homer"... yeah keep diging yourself a hole in this debate that you just can't handle. I actually pity you.

Then you even went on to make another pityful hit and run, taking just a small bit from my text, probably the only part you thought you could actually counter, but yet with no substance again... just another silly childish reply :

Quote:
Originally Posted by FerrisRox View Post


/end
Quote:
Originally Posted by Passchendaele View Post
If he hadn't missed any games this past season, he would have got the 6th best point total in the league.

What is so funny?
He's probably laughing at his own inability to form a proper response.

Yeah, I guess there are only 10 superstars/elite players in this league, which is laughable. I wonder when one becomes an elite player, in this poor sap's mind. I've never been a great fan of Ribeiro, but for what he did this year, he can certainly be considered a superstar. But wait! We have to retain ourselves from judging be our own standards, we have to follow FerrixRox's ladder of talent description. I mean, players like Zetterberg are not only superstars, they are Franchise players, but it seems to Ferrix that both description are mutually exclusive and we can't define players as superstars only even if they were in the best 15 players for points in the league. We have to predict what the oh-so mighty Ferrix has for ladder of talent description.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yemack View Post
yeah well I'll keep Franzen, Filppula, Kronwall instead of Rib, Ryder anyday. Obviously some of you don't think so.. maybe that's why you guys traded them/let them walk for nothing.
I don't think Dallas would let Ribeiro go for both Filppula AND Franzen. I was never a big fan of Ribeiro, but he has a lot of talent and has shown that this year, especially considering his point total and that he played on a defensive-first team.

And Kronwall wasn't part of the debate, as then we would have to include 1st picks by Montreal too. You forgot to mention Streit and we let him go because he would cost too much.


Last edited by Beakermania*: 07-13-2008 at 06:35 PM.
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07-13-2008, 02:28 AM
  #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Passchendaele View Post
SK told every team that he would only come over to play with his brother.

That's mainly why he was a 7th round pick.
Source?

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Old
07-13-2008, 02:37 AM
  #139
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I think a lot of wieght goes on how you develop a player as well. Sure you may draft the best player out there, but if he just gets thrown to the wolves right away he may never reach his potential. Sometimes you have you be patient, give him confidence and shots at making the club. Developing players is also a science, but like drafting, it is far from exact. You have to know how to develop certain areas of a players game, know when to graduate him to different levels, and also how to treat a young player as well. Some teams may not be able to entice a European player to come over to NA early or ever. It becomes difficult because every player has a different personality, skill set and learning curve so there are a lot of different variables to it as well. You may draft a great player that has a lot of potential, but you mis manage him and end up not recieving what another team may have if they were to draft him. I'll use Grabovsky as an example, maybe with another team he wouldn't of spent so much time in the AHL. Another team might of had a spot for him allowing him to become part of the team and for his confidence to grow. He might of flourished at the opportunity and became a very sucessful player for their club. IMO, scouting and drafting are just part of the puzzle, there are still alot of pieces that come into play. Just some food for thought.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Helm1Crosby0 View Post
I wouldn't be suprised to see Helm stay a year in the AHL or centre a 4th line next year in Detroit. He can easily play LW as he has previously in the WHL.

Yes, I do see Helm going about Flip and possibly Franzen. Why? Speed. Helm is faster than Flip and Franzen. He can also control the puck at crazy high speeds. Franzen is a power forward. Helm is not.
I see Helm becoming a major part of the team in the future. He has all the tools to become a very sound two way player. He is definitely ready for the big times IMO, I think him spending any time in the AHL from now on is utterly pointless. If he can play like he did that deep in the NHL playoffs, he is more than ready. I have loved this kid since I started watching him in his early days with the Tigers, and he was my favourite player for them the year they won the WHL title. He just has a great mix of speed, intelligence, skill and maturity that is so hard to find for a kid his age.


Last edited by guest1467: 07-13-2008 at 02:44 AM.
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07-13-2008, 02:56 AM
  #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Passchendaele View Post
If he hadn't missed any games this past season, he would have got the 6th best point total in the league.

What is so funny?
That people think that simply scoring is what determines a superstar player.

Don't look at that stats - watch him play.

Mike Ribeiro is far from an elite player. He's a poor man's Pierre Turgeon. To mention guys like Henrik Zetterberg and Pavel Datsyuk - two pure two-way players in the same breath as Mike Ribeiro is funny as hell.

You don't appear to get the joke.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Yeah, quite a homer I am when I actually bring strong arguments to support my points, contrarily to you. Your reply stinks of a loser's hit and run. You took the easy road because you know full well that you couldn't come up with strong arguments to counter my many points that have built a strong case to show my first assertion was pretty close to the truth and that your own quick reply held a massive, ridiculous counter statement without any substance to back it up. "Borderline laughable homer"... yeah keep diging yourself a hole in this debate that you just can't handle. I actually pity you.

Then you even went on to make another pityful hit and run, taking just a small bit from my text, probably the only part you thought you could actually counter, but yet with no substance again... just another silly childish reply :





He's probably laughing at his own inability to form a proper response.

Yeah, I guess there are only 10 superstars/elite players in this league, which is laughable. I wonder when one becomes an elite player, in this poor sap's mind. I've never been a great fan of Ribeiro, but for what he did this year, he can certainly be considered a superstar. But wait! We have to retain ourselves from judging be our own standards, we have to follow FerrixRox's ladder of talent description. I mean, players like Zetterberg are not only superstars, they are Franchise players, but it seems to Ferrix that both description are mutually exclusive and we can't define players as superstars only even if they were in the best 15 players for points in the league. We have to predict what the oh-so mighty Ferrix has for ladder of talent description.
What are you 12?

You made a post where you ridiculously gave players random rankings - determined by you - as if you were making an EA Sports game, then you added up the arbitrary numbers that you made up in your head and determined Montreal was better?

You think that's a strong argument?

Are you serious?

I mean honestly... that's your argument?


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Old
07-13-2008, 03:02 AM
  #141
Passchendaele
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arctic_Hab_Fan View Post
Source?
Pierre McGuire.

No link, sorry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FerrisRox View Post
That people think that simply scoring is what determines a superstar player.

Don't look at that stats - watch him play.

Mike Ribeiro is far from an elite player. He's a poor man's Pierre Turgeon. To mention guys like Henrik Zetterberg and Pavel Datsyuk - two pure two-way players in the same breath as Mike Ribeiro is funny as hell.

You don't appear to get the joke.
Mike is not at all the player he used to be in MTL.

What is that smell?

Oh, right, that little thing called jealousy.


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07-13-2008, 09:22 AM
  #142
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Originally Posted by keyven View Post
I did that for fun while I was surfing on hockeydb.com. I count out how many players, pts and games played that was recorded from Detroit and Montreal drafted players between 1998 and 2007.

Here's my result :

Detroit

82 drafted players
2243 games played
1172 pts
0,52 pts/game

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/t...r00005492.html

Montreal

88 drafted players
3671 games played
2139 pts
0,58 pts/game

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/t...r00006929.html

I know we didn't draft players like Datsyuk and Zetterberg but could we just stop saying that Detroit is good at the draft table ?

Argue !

wow you went thru all that work and all you REALLY need to do is count.....(Drum Roll)........ Stanley Cups!!!!

Sorry to break it to you man but, your whole points and points per game system in useless cause that isnt all there is to hockey.

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07-13-2008, 11:13 AM
  #143
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Originally Posted by Passchendaele View Post
Mike is not at all the player he used to be in MTL.

What is that smell?

Oh, right, that little thing called jealousy.
I've seen plenty of Mike Ribeiro in Dallas. I'm aware of his development. It's strictly offensive. He's still very weak on the puck. He still plays with very little fire. He's still prone to loss of concentration on the ice. He's still about as physical out there as the referees.

If hockey were strictly about putting up points and there were zero other factors, as Mister EA Sports rankings seems to think, Ribeiro would have a lot of merit. However, real observers of the game know there are a ton of factors that come into play when evaluating a hockey player that simply don't show up when you click their profile at TSN.ca.

You take Mike Ribeiro, I'll take Valtteri Filppula. That's an easy choice for me. One is a winner who has shown every sign of developing into a rock-solid two way forward with skill, speed, grit and determination.

The other, at best, is Pierre Turgeon.

Which guy do you really think NHL GMs would pick?

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07-13-2008, 11:22 AM
  #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FerrisRox View Post
What are you 12?

You made a post where you ridiculously gave players random rankings - determined by you - as if you were making an EA Sports game, then you added up the arbitrary numbers that you made up in your head and determined Montreal was better?

You think that's a strong argument?

Are you serious?

I mean honestly... that's your argument?
I wonder who's the one lacking maturity, the one always evading the arguments or the one who tries and develop his case by bringing solid arguments?

I haven't just put ratings on them, I've also included their ranks in the NHL related to their point totals. You just prove your own immaturity by just labeling it ridiculous and throwing out altogether without even showing where the ratings are ridiculous. At least put your own ratings and let people judge, as it is, no one has come up and said these ratings were ridiculous but you, the one who categorized players like Hudler, Franzen, Fleishmman, Kopecky and Fillpula on the same level as Ribeiro and Plekanec and put these Detroit players on a higher level than Streit, Kostitsyn and Latendresse. That's the most ridiculous statement of them all, and for sure you won't address my points with constructive (proving your point, not just saying it's ridiculous) arguments. I am fully aware that they are arbitrary, no duh, that is why you should put your own ratings and let people judge, and I would just love to see their reaction to yours. Keep digging yourself a hole. Besides the ratings, you've completely left out all my other arguments related to where the players were compared to one another.

Sure making your own ARBITRARY "rating" of "superstars" Datsyuk and Zetterberg and then "good guys" which includes the rest of the Detroit players on the same level as both Plekanec and Ribeiro and then RATING the rest of the Habs player as "sold support players" is so much better and constructive and clearly proves your own point. You're friggin laughable as you accuse me of doing something you did yourself, although yours was poorly done and the arbitration reeked of bias and I tried to prove that bias, unlike you, who just makes the off-handed remark that they are ridiculous. Keeping evading the points at hand, little man.

Another fact that shows how immature you are is that you once again make-up stuff, I never said it made the Habs draft better, you invented this, as I clearly stated that the ratings didn't show that Montreal was better because Detroit has Datsyuk and Zetterberg, but that these ratings AND the place where they are in the league (top% linked to the points standing) showed that my assertion about the two teams drafties are close in OVERALL quality and quantity is quite realistic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FerrisRox View Post
I've seen plenty of Mike Ribeiro in Dallas. I'm aware of his development. It's strictly offensive. He's still very weak on the puck. He still plays with very little fire. He's still prone to loss of concentration on the ice. He's still about as physical out there as the referees.

If hockey were strictly about putting up points and there were zero other factors, as Mister EA Sports rankings seems to think, Ribeiro would have a lot of merit. However, real observers of the game know there are a ton of factors that come into play when evaluating a hockey player that simply don't show up when you click their profile at TSN.ca.

You take Mike Ribeiro, I'll take Valtteri Filppula. That's an easy choice for me. One is a winner who has shown every sign of developing into a rock-solid two way forward with skill, speed, grit and determination.

The other, at best, is Pierre Turgeon.

Which guy do you really think NHL GMs would pick?

Yeah and the little man should realize that different players each bring different aspects to the game, let's just wait and see where Filppula goes in the upcomming years. Also your judgement of Ribeiro is as arbitrary as any other, it's your opinion and it totally discounts the fact that Filppula hasn't reached the same poinit as Ribeiro. This is based on present accomplishment, not the "potential", potential only remains just that until the player shows the progress. At this rate we could Kostitsyn even higher because at a younger age he has already "shown every sign of developing into a rock-solid two way forward with skill, speed, grit and determination." Yet you've put him in your pathetic ratings as just a "sold support player" lower than the "good guy" Filppula. If we look at Filppula's play, it is still erratic, he's still got a lot to learn, but you seem to have a real big hard-on for him, just call it bias. BTW, Ribeiro has different qualities than Turgeon, a much better vision of the game, more grit than Turgeon and better two-way play.

You don't need viagra with your love of Detroit players... you seem to see only them have potential, and only include that potential in their own ratings, leaving it out of the Habs players.

Oh and BTW, yoou should address that other part (not just Filppula) were you also equated Franzen, Fleishmman, Kopecky and Hudler with players like Plekanec and Ribeiro... which is plain ridiculous and I've already shown why. Oh and also explain how Franzen, Fleishmman, Kopecky and Hudler are better than Streit and most importantly S Kostitsyn as it seems we have to include unrealized potential as more important than accomplised acts.

Also, you've completely left out the fact that Ribeiro plays on a defensive minded team and still oucld put up PPG stat with a very solid +/-. Ribeiro isn't categorized as a two way player and judging this you only seem to put emphasis on that, which is poor judgement. Ribeiro as pure playmaking skills, much better passing and shooting and vision than Filppula. You are comparing two different players, one who has reached his full potential and the other who's got some ways to go and yet you make the latter sound much better. Get off your high horse.


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07-13-2008, 01:33 PM
  #145
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All I know is that Ribeiro didn't help the Habs and was a distraction. The Habs are in fairly good shape without him. I can't even think of a line he would click on. He fizzled in his season with Kovalev, especially in the playoffs against Carolina. For the immediate future, I'd much rather have Sundin than Ribeiro or, for that matter, Filppula.

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07-13-2008, 01:38 PM
  #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Analyzer View Post
So can Flippula from what I've seen.

Franzen is a power forward, the big body infront of the net, the big body down the middle, kind of more important than a smaller, speeder one...
Yeah I'm sure Kariya, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Koivu, Gagner ect...agree.


(I'm just giving you a hard time.)

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07-13-2008, 01:51 PM
  #147
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07-13-2008, 06:14 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Get off your high horse.


This is a Hall of Fame thread.

What kills me is that you think you've made solid arguments and supported them.

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07-13-2008, 07:01 PM
  #149
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Datsyuk-Zetterberg-Holmstrom
Franzen-Filppula-Samuelsson
Maltby-Draper-Drake*
Helm-Hudler-McCarty
Kopecky

Lidstrom-Rafalski
Kronwall-Stuart
Lebda-Lilja
Quincey-Kindl
Chelios*

Osgood
Conklin

Forget about prospect depth, potential NHLers and supposed lucky picks, and you're left with a Stanley Cup Champion team that is largely built through the draft. And really, that's the ultimate reward for solid drafting. Yes, they have Mathias, Abdelkader, Ritola, Pyett, Emmerton etc...in the system and some of those guys should turn into to solid pros, but right now they have a team that's largely built through the draft.

Are they slightly overrated? Perhaps, as there some luck involved for any team, but given the fact that their first pick is often after no.50, it's pretty significant that they've been able to consistently find solid NHLers.

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07-13-2008, 07:27 PM
  #150
FerrisRox
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet Robert View Post
Datsyuk-Zetterberg-Holmstrom
Franzen-Filppula-Samuelsson
Maltby-Draper-Drake*
Helm-Hudler-McCarty
Kopecky

Lidstrom-Rafalski
Kronwall-Stuart
Lebda-Lilja
Quincey-Kindl
Chelios*

Osgood
Conklin

Forget about prospect depth, potential NHLers and supposed lucky picks, and you're left with a Stanley Cup Champion team that is largely built through the draft. And really, that's the ultimate reward for solid drafting. Yes, they have Mathias, Abdelkader, Ritola, Pyett, Emmerton etc...in the system and some of those guys should turn into to solid pros, but right now they have a team that's largely built through the draft.

Are they slightly overrated? Perhaps, as there some luck involved for any team, but given the fact that their first pick is often after no.50, it's pretty significant that they've been able to consistently find solid NHLers.
I agree wholeheartedly.

The only measuring stick I give a damn about is Stanley Cups.

Didn't the Wings trade Mathias to get Bertuzzi?

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