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Old
07-14-2008, 08:05 AM
  #51
dedalus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
Why should this Rangers team be moving vets for prospects?
Did I write that it should?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
Do you want us to perpetually rebuild and be a team like the Florida Panthers?
Did I write that I wanted such a thing?


Last edited by dedalus: 07-14-2008 at 08:17 AM.
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07-14-2008, 08:10 AM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Staal View Post
I

I'm praying Naslund isn't anything like the declining Shanahan.

I don't agree with giving him a NMC, but I don't agree with giving most players a NMC/NTC - so that's just me. The availability of movement should be there in case he is a bust, and that's on Sather.
we are all praying that Naslund turns it around.....But I would have rather had Jagr
with 3 year contract playing with Duby than a new guy adjusting to the Big Apple with 2 years.

Frankly I am not optmistic about this. I fear the worst!
We'll be lucky to make the playoffs.... with this line up!

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07-14-2008, 08:12 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Happy London Ranger View Post
we are all praying that Naslund turns it around.....But I would have rather had Jagr
with 3 year contract playing with Duby than a new guy adjusting to the Big Apple with 2 years.

Frankly I am not optmistic about this. I fear the worst!
We'll be lucky to make the playoffs.... with this line up!
Had we re-signed Jagr you would see no PP improvement and the moves that were made would have not been made because we would have had the offensive threat "or so called" of Jagr. The team is better off this way. While he would of helped Dubinsky - I have faith Dubinsky can carry his own out there. We may be lucky to make the playoffs, but this is the start of a semi-rebuild from a team that brought us back to respectability, but nowhere near championships. That means it's time for change and thus there was change.

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Old
07-14-2008, 08:15 AM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner View Post


Why is it assumed that Naslund is going to step in and play great?



For all this talk about how he played with "bad linemates" in a "defensive system" it sounds like excuses to me....Did Vancouver not want to win? The better question is why did Naslund play with these "bad linemates"?
....
Precisely - naslund is not here to be a second line winger! like it or not.
He is surplus to Canuck's requirement at that salary - so we picked him up as a bandaid to cover up the huge hole left behind by jagr.


Last edited by Sad London Ranger: 07-14-2008 at 08:22 AM.
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Old
07-14-2008, 08:18 AM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Staal View Post
I have faith Dubinsky can carry his own out there. We may be lucky to make the playoffs, but this is the start of a semi-rebuild from a team that brought us back to respectability, but nowhere near championships. That means it's time for change and thus there was change.
Let me remind you of the sophmore years Mike York and Petr Prucha had.....
This is by no means a sure deal. dubinsky had room to maneuvre because of Jagr.
Saying otherwise is obtuse....

I have faith in Dubinsky aswell but don't you agree that having Jagr for year two would have been more benefitial to him than trying to confirm his freshman year with 2 new wingers......

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Old
07-14-2008, 08:23 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Happy London Ranger View Post
Let me remind you of the sophmore years Mike York and Petr Prucha had.....
This is by no means a sure deal. dubinsky had room to maneuvre because of Jagr.
Saying otherwise is obtuse....

I have faith in Dubinsky aswell but don't you agree that having Jagr for year two would have been more benefitial to him than trying to confirm his freshman year with 2 new wingers......
Yes but this team isn't all about Brandon. Even though Jagr brings a lot of positives to Brandon's game, he doesn't bring positives to the team as a whole. When Jagr's in his 40's, and can't play anymore, who will be there for Brandon? -- That's the point. That Brandon should develop within himself, and to suggest otherwise would be to muffle his skill level, that he shouldn't need Jagr.

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07-14-2008, 08:37 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Marc Staal View Post
Yes but this team isn't all about Brandon. Even though Jagr brings a lot of positives to Brandon's game, he doesn't bring positives to the team as a whole. When Jagr's in his 40's, and can't play anymore, who will be there for Brandon? -- That's the point. That Brandon should develop within himself, and to suggest otherwise would be to muffle his skill level, that he shouldn't need Jagr.
Wow, talk about ignorance.

I think you're about to be hit with a major reality check this season.

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Old
07-14-2008, 08:39 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Wow, talk about ignorance.

I think you're about to be hit with a major reality check this season.
At some point you need to let go, and that time was this summer. It was the right move for the long haul, and this season is baby steps toward a championship team.

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07-14-2008, 08:41 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Staal View Post
Yes but this team isn't all about Brandon. Even though Jagr brings a lot of positives to Brandon's game, he doesn't bring positives to the team as a whole. When Jagr's in his 40's, and can't play anymore, who will be there for Brandon? -- That's the point. That Brandon should develop within himself, and to suggest otherwise would be to muffle his skill level, that he shouldn't need Jagr.
Are you telling me Dubinsky is a ready made player or that playing with Jagr is a detriment to his development?

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Old
07-14-2008, 08:44 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Staal View Post
At some point you need to let go, and that time was this summer. It was the right move for the long haul, and this season is baby steps toward a championship team.

the only time I will agree with this statement is if we go past 2nd round of P/offs.
Until then I am very worried. you should be too!

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Old
07-14-2008, 08:47 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Happy London Ranger View Post
Are you telling me Dubinsky is a ready made player or that playing with Jagr is a detriment to his development?
Neither, actually. I thought it was pretty clear that I'm saying that not ever player has the luxury of playing with someone like Jagr - but to keep Jagr here purely for Dubinsky would be insane, and that's what it was coming down to. He was in no way detrimental to Dubinsky's development, but we can't have him stick around for that very reason. It's now time to turn it over to Dubinsky for himself to show us what he can do on his own - this will be a very big season for him. To see whether or not he goes into a sophomore slump, and proves that a 3rd line center role is all he can handle - or if he steps up his game completely and forces Renney to think about moving him up.

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Old
07-14-2008, 09:00 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Marc Staal View Post
At some point you need to let go, and that time was this summer. It was the right move for the long haul, and this season is baby steps toward a championship team.
It'll be "let go" for me when training camp begins, but now is a time to really review the offseason moves that were made.

If you believe that Markus Nasland is a suitable replacement for Jagr as a veteran top 6 forward, then you've had a bit too much Kool-Aid.

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Old
07-14-2008, 09:07 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
It'll be "let go" for me when training camp begins, but now is a time to really review the offseason moves that were made.

If you believe that Markus Nasland is a suitable replacement for Jagr as a veteran top 6 forward, then you've had a bit too much Kool-Aid.
Again, find me the words that said Naslund's production will match that of Jagr's. - That doesn't matter anymore. What you fail to realize is that Jagr was more detrimental to this team then he was beneficial moving forward regardless of his production level had he returned to form.

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Old
07-14-2008, 09:20 AM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
If you believe that Markus Nasland is a suitable replacement for Jagr as a veteran top 6 forward, then you've had a bit too much Kool-Aid.
I don't disagree but if you think that bringing back Jagr would have made us a Cup contender I would also advise you to put down the purple drank. It was time to move on, and I actually support the decisions Sather made - I feel we are a better TEAM now then we were a few weeks ago.

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Old
07-14-2008, 09:29 AM
  #65
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I have absolutely no problem giving Naslund an NMC. It's a 2 year deal. The only way we'd trade him would be if he's massively underperforming, in which case, who would take him? Or the team is out of the playoff race come the trade deadline. In that case, which is possible though I think unlikely, Naslund might waive his NMC to go to a contending team.

The most likely scenario is that he plays well enough over the course of the next 2 seasons to help the team and the NMC is never an issue.

For Redden, I don't think it will be an issue either. His clause just means "don't send me to a crappy team". The guy's 31 and possibly on his last contract. I'd imagine he wants win a cup at some point and wanted some insurance that he won't be a deadline deal to some team with no realistic chance of winning.

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Old
07-14-2008, 09:37 AM
  #66
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*Yawn* Brooks must love to watch us bicker about his musings.

Isn't this the same guy who was complaining in print that NMC are now worthless? I'm too lazy to look it up but I think he sited a trade in Tampa where mgmt forced a trade.

I could be wrong but I think it was Brooks.

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Old
07-14-2008, 10:22 AM
  #67
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glad jagr is gone....the team can finally be a team.......was sick of everything going through jagr and him holding back for the postseason......if they dont make the playoffs(which i think they will) then so be it, it is a year where the team got younger, transformed into a better style of hockey, got faster and got experience for all of the young players....however, let me just say that drury has made it to at least the second round his last 4-5 years in a row.......i dont see that streak ending

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07-14-2008, 10:25 AM
  #68
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Brooks makes good points...

let's see what the roster looks like in September...

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07-14-2008, 11:00 AM
  #69
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No I agree it's a terrible example, but that doesn't change his point. Neither does your citing it as a terrible example invalidate his point.
I'm not trying to invalidate his point, I'm trying to invalidate Brooks as a credible journalist.

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Old
07-14-2008, 11:33 AM
  #70
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I'm just happy The Post is talking hockey in the middle of July.

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Old
07-14-2008, 11:52 AM
  #71
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people r knocking the NM/NT clauses and the players that we signed, but we need to realize the free agent pool this year wasnt that strong and we needed to fill holes and get the players we got and give them what they wanted so they could sign and our team wouldnt turn out to be an AHL clone

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Old
07-14-2008, 11:52 AM
  #72
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It's the fact that people seem content with bringing back Jagr for more money than Naslund, despite the fact that his decline was even more significant.

Naslund at 4 mil per vs Jagr at 4+ mil per + bonuses that carry over really isn't even a contest for me. Naslund is the type of player that can compliment the players we have already invested in. Jagr has shown that he is not.
Jagrs decline is more signifiant? in what way?

Naslund hasn't been the same player for 4 years...Jagr had one really down year...besides the fact that Jagr is yesterdays news..he isn't coming back..why even bring jagr into this...lets discuss what we have now..a 34 year old signed to two year contract with a NMC....A clause the Rangers should've insisted on not including...this is the same organiztion that wouldn't give one to Chara or Savard because of team policy and now they are giving them out to an over the hill veteran? What do you do with Naslund if his decline continues? You can't waive him...You can't trade him...Naslunds contract is terrible...



Quote:
If you look at it from a strictly statistical stand point, then sure, we may be down in production by a handful of points. However, we also got younger and have brought in players that suit the game Renney wants to implement.
for a team that lacked scoring you are ok with losing a "handful" of points?

Quote:
Is Naslund's contract the greatest move ever? No. But a NMC is certainly less of a burden on a team that has issues with cap space than an incentive laden contract is. Personally, I feel there were just as many question marks in bringing back Jagr, Straka and Avery as there are in bringing in Naslund, Zherdev, etc. Was Jagr going to continue to decline? Was his contract going to hamper us from bringing in other skilled wingers? Was Avery's contract going to limit our options as well? Was he even going to stay healthy?
Incentive laden contract? huh..Jagr couldn't get an incentive laden contract because it would've counted towards this years cap.....

Quote:
It's certainly hard to replace a guy like Jagr for what he brings to the ice --and the same can be said about Avery-- but I strongly believe that the right balance of players can outweigh the absence of one player. I feel that with the right line mates and the right coaching environment, Zherdev can be an 80 point player and replace the offense that Jagr brought to the table. Certainly a tall order, but I'm an optimist when it comes to a new year for this team.
right balance? if you mean everyline will have trouble scoring then i agree with you..that's a balane...i don't think its a "good" balance but it's balanced..

Quote:
We may have not gotten better by leaps and bounds, but I certainly don't think we've back tracked at all. I also think we both know that we can speculate as much as we want, but until the first puck is dropped we wont know who was right.
so we've replaced 4 productive players with 2 productive players and we haven't backtracked? ok...i don't think that adds up but to each his own..

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Old
07-14-2008, 12:12 PM
  #73
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Is anyone else concerned that we are commiting 10.5 mill in cap space next year to two players (Redden/Naslund) who we "hope" turn things around with a change of scenary? That is almost 19% of our Cap dedicated to two players who have been on a decline the past 2 years. That seems like a pretty big leap of faith to me.

I'm trying to be optimistic but I am also a tad worried. Specifically with Redden because of the term of his contract. In my mind when you give someone 6.5 mill a season for 6 years and a limited NTC there should be very little risk in what you are gonna get from that player. In other words if you viewed it as a formula.....As the salary increases the risk involved should decrease. The more you pay the player the more comfortable you should be on what your getting from said player. With Redden we are hoping we get the player from 2 years ago. Seems like if your gonna commit 6.5mill per for 6 years to a player we shouldn't have the level of unknown that is currently surrounding Redden.

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Old
07-14-2008, 12:18 PM
  #74
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Is anyone else concerned that we are commiting 10.5 mill in cap space next year to two players (Redden/Naslund) who we "hope" turn things around with a change of scenary? That is almost 19% of our Cap dedicated to two players who have been on a decline the past 2 years. That seems like a pretty big leap of faith to me.

I'm trying to be optimistic but I am also a tad worried. Specifically with Redden because of the term of his contract. In my mind when you give someone 6.5 mill a season for 6 years and a limited NTC there should be very little risk in what you are gonna get from that player. In other words if you viewed it as a formula.....As the salary increases the risk involved should decrease. The more you pay the player the more comfortable you should be on what your getting from said player. With Redden we are hoping we get the player from 2 years ago. Seems like if your gonna commit 6.5mill per for 6 years to a player we shouldn't have the level of unknown that is currently surrounding Redden.
i understand what you are saying, however looking at their situations, i think it is safe to say they will fit in better on the rangers.....also, this is sather's MO, he likes to give guys chances and sometimes they work out.......both of these guys still have the skill.....it all depends on if sather and renney have done enough research on if they really fit the "new" style.......until we see it, which wont be perfect im sure until a few weeks at least into the season, none of us know

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07-14-2008, 12:27 PM
  #75
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i understand what you are saying, however looking at their situations, i think it is safe to say they will fit in better on the rangers.....also, this is sather's MO, he likes to give guys chances and sometimes they work out.......both of these guys still have the skill.....it all depends on if sather and renney have done enough research on if they really fit the "new" style.......until we see it, which wont be perfect im sure until a few weeks at least into the season, none of us know
I hear what your saying Viper. I am all for giving guys chances and hoping they exceed your expectations. My concern is that 6.5 mill for 6 Years isn't a contract you give out to someone you "hope" works out. You wanna give a player a 1 year deal worth 5 mill and hope he regains his previous form that is fine. Commiting to a player for 6 years at that price however is a pretty significant risk. The term of the contract is really what concerns me more than anything.

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