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Old
07-14-2008, 12:37 PM
  #76
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I'd rather hope a kid on an $800k entry level contract works out, and feel confident that the $6.5m guy I signed to a 6 year, $6.5m contract with limited NTC can adequately perform the job I'm hiring him to do.

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07-14-2008, 12:44 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by TomLaidlaw View Post
I hear what your saying Viper. I am all for giving guys chances and hoping they exceed your expectations. My concern is that 6.5 mill for 6 Years isn't a contract you give out to someone you "hope" works out. You wanna give a player a 1 year deal worth 5 mill and hope he regains his previous form that is fine. Commiting to a player for 6 years at that price however is a pretty significant risk. The term of the contract is really what concerns me more than anything.
I agree the term is a year too long, but in 6 years the cap will be a lot higher and this won't hurt as much. And if Redden didn't have question marks, he would have been a LOT more expensive. I for one believe a guy like Redden will fit in well with the team culture, and he will make Staal a better player over time as well.

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07-14-2008, 12:50 PM
  #78
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a NMC clause on a 2 year deal at a reasonable $ amount is no big deal to me.

Redden can be traded to 21/29 teams, and Atlanta isn't offering Kovalchuk for him no matter what his contract says.

Sjostrom's QO at 800K+ is reasonable.

and Brooks shouldn't comment on the salaries of players he's never seen play before (Riss and Voros).

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07-14-2008, 01:06 PM
  #79
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The team this season...

is a huge question mark. Of course any season comes with question marks, but this one more than other. It is impossible to predict the future, but sometimes with enough information, you can make an educated guess. In this case, we just don't have enough information. Personally I'm more comfortable saying Jagr would turn things around/remain level than say Naslund would get better or Zherdev would fit in (not saying keep Jagr, just saying where my comfort level in terms of predicting the future are). When you read Larry's article it's not difficult to take a step back and say, yeah, what did go on. Lots of moving around, but what did they really do. Get younger? That's great, but are they the right people? I guess at some point the organization had to sit down and say that the youth in the system still isn't very high end and those that are come with question marks so they had to add more. Let's hope it works out.

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07-14-2008, 01:08 PM
  #80
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31..

Sjostrom's QO is reasonably, but his question is, OK, you have that QO, two 'fourth' liners at $1MM per and Fritsche going to arbitration, not to mention Cally, possibly Korps, etc. Somewhat expensive bottom six. Of course it's a stockpiling of sorts since they all won't be here through the end of the season.

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07-14-2008, 01:08 PM
  #81
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i really dont understand what sather is doing right now.......hollweg is still on the team and the rangers have too many forwards as it is.....even in the AHL.....why not trade som eoffensive depth for some defensive depth?.......or for some picks.....it is almost rediculous how many forwards the rangers have who should be in the nhl

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07-14-2008, 01:08 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner View Post
Jagrs decline is more signifiant? in what way?
For starters, how about an average decline of 25 points over the last two seasons?


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for a team that lacked scoring you are ok with losing a "handful" of points?
As I've said before, putting the right players together on a line can result in more production than forcing players into situations where they clearly don't work together. Not to mention our abysmal power play was a significant reason for our poor production. We've done away with players that insist on passing before shooting and brought in players who will shoot.


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Incentive laden contract? huh..Jagr couldn't get an incentive laden contract because it would've counted towards this years cap.....
Which would have made it even more difficult to field a team with another 7+ mil contract on our roster. Jagr's 7 mil got you two scoring wingers. I'm fine with that.

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right balance? if you mean everyline will have trouble scoring then i agree with you..that's a balane...i don't think its a "good" balance but it's balanced..
Obviously we disagree as I have an optimistic view of this roster and you clearly do not. Where I see promise, youth and a new direction, you see under achieving players and poor production. Not much sense in continuing this if that's the case.

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so we've replaced 4 productive players with 2 productive players and we haven't backtracked? ok...i don't think that adds up but to each his own..
While significantly improving the defense as well. We've also made room for our top two centers to stop playing second fiddle to Jagr and his antics. I think Sather and Renney did a fine job this summer (so far) in improving the roster with what was available. Clearly they targeted players like Hossa and Orpik and missed out on them, but they still brought in solid pieces to at least complete the puzzle. Is this years team a cup contender? Too early to say, but last year's team was clearly not a contender either. I understand you're not happy with the team, but you can't expect me to trust your opinion of "We're going to fail." (paraphrased) when we haven't even seen a single game and we don't even know what the final roster will look like.

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07-14-2008, 01:35 PM
  #83
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viper...

he's got a month. I'm not sure everyone's signed yet (Dawes and Fritsche and Sjostrom (qualified, not signed, and one to arbitration)). If that's correct, I'd guess he'd wait until he has everyone signed and the take it from there. Still have almost two months to get things straightened out.

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07-14-2008, 01:36 PM
  #84
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trx...

are you assume a similar 25 point decline in Jagr this season?

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07-14-2008, 01:38 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
he's got a month. I'm not sure everyone's signed yet (Dawes and Fritsche and Sjostrom (qualified, not signed, and one to arbitration)). If that's correct, I'd guess he'd wait until he has everyone signed and the take it from there. Still have almost two months to get things straightened out.
o i know, it just kills me to see nothing going on when i see soooo many forwards who really should be in the nhl

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07-14-2008, 01:53 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
are you assume a similar 25 point decline in Jagr this season?
Hard to say, Fletch. So many variables would have changed if Jagr was brought back that its difficult to imagine what this team would look like. Unless he got a true shooter on his off wing, I imagine he would have continued down.

If he wound up with Dubi and Straka on his line again, I don't think he would have increased his production, but I'm not sure I can say it would have decreased significantly either. He had an incredible first season with us, but after that he started to trail off. Even with Nylander as his center, he dropped off significantly. It's difficult to say whether or not his decline was attributed to his age, or the players around him.

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07-14-2008, 02:21 PM
  #87
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It is hard to say...

I can make an equally strong argument that having a constant centerman from day one would help out immensely, and even with a Prucha on his left wing, he could maintain that 70-point level. Don't forget that during the first 15 games of the season his left winger scored zero goals. I think that impacts the overall season point total dramatically and would consider that an outlier when comparing 96 points to 71 points. I'm not going to say exrtrapolate his last 1/2 season, including playoffs, and come up with 82 points to arrive at this season's number, but I don't think one can simply say the decline will continue and cite what the average decline was over the last couple seasons. One poster did sugges he would have about 50 points this season given the last two seasons' declines, implying that in two more seasons it would be zero - I don't believe this is as easy as a mathematical equation.

Also, the biggest difference between year one and year two was the PP. He had 11 less PP points, including 17 less PP goals. That's significant, and perhaps one can cite his shoulder as a reason for that dropoff, as Jagr went very long stretches without a PP goal.

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07-14-2008, 02:39 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
I can make an equally strong argument that having a constant centerman from day one would help out immensely, and even with a Prucha on his left wing, he could maintain that 70-point level. Don't forget that during the first 15 games of the season his left winger scored zero goals. I think that impacts the overall season point total dramatically and would consider that an outlier when comparing 96 points to 71 points. I'm not going to say exrtrapolate his last 1/2 season, including playoffs, and come up with 82 points to arrive at this season's number, but I don't think one can simply say the decline will continue and cite what the average decline was over the last couple seasons. One poster did sugges he would have about 50 points this season given the last two seasons' declines, implying that in two more seasons it would be zero - I don't believe this is as easy as a mathematical equation.

Also, the biggest difference between year one and year two was the PP. He had 11 less PP points, including 17 less PP goals. That's significant, and perhaps one can cite his shoulder as a reason for that dropoff, as Jagr went very long stretches without a PP goal.
I certainly agree with you Fletch. I don't think Jagr in his worst year would ever dip below 50 points, but at the same time, you have to draw the line as to how long you want to keep investing resources to keep his production up.

I think the same argument can, and should be applied to Naslund as well. He obviously hasn't been quite the caliber player he was leading into the lockout, but he put up good numbers in 05 (32g 47a) and then that summer, his friend and line-mate Bertuzzi gets shipped off to Florida and the Sedin's really start to take over the offense in Vancouver. I think he'll benefit from a change in scenery as well as a true play-making center like Gomez.

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07-14-2008, 02:53 PM
  #89
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I'm still mixed on Naslund...

thought he played great in the right situation, which included having a big body to his left (Bertuzzi). And I think when Keenan came in that helped him a lot too (believe it or not). I don't doubt there's a chance that Naslund can regain his form. The question becomes do the Rangers have the right centerman and right left (or right) winger to play with him so he can regain that form? Does he need someone on the other side who's a physical presence and can score, as Bertuzzi was? Trying to create a situation for a player regain form isn't easy. Trying to create a situation for a player, in a totally new environment, to do better than the prior season isn't easy either.

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07-14-2008, 04:21 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
For starters, how about an average decline of 25 points over the last two seasons?
So your saying that you expected Jagr to have another 25 point drop this season?

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As I've said before, putting the right players together on a line can result in more production than forcing players into situations where they clearly don't work together. Not to mention our abysmal power play was a significant reason for our poor production. We've done away with players that insist on passing before shooting and brought in players who will shoot.
So your saying that Straka Dubinsky Jagr didn't work last season? you realize that line outscored every other line right?

You also realize Jagr didn't play a full two minutes on the power play? Why don't guys like Drury and Gomez get any heat for the way the power play performed last season?

As for you last point....Micheal Rozsival says hi...You also realize the Rangers on MOST nights had more shots than the other team..




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Which would have made it even more difficult to field a team with another 7+ mil contract on our roster. Jagr's 7 mil got you two scoring wingers. I'm fine with that.
or you could've just signed Jagr to a $7m contract but thats not even the point anymore...Jagr is gone...



Quote:
Obviously we disagree as I have an optimistic view of this roster and you clearly do not. Where I see promise, youth and a new direction, you see under achieving players and poor production. Not much sense in continuing this if that's the case.
I see a team that is up against the cap and still has MAJOR holes to fill. I see a team that is in cap trouble next year with veterans with impossible (and in naslunds case REALLY IMPOSSIBLE) contracts to move...We arent a contender yet we are up against the cap...HUH!!


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While significantly improving the defense as well. We've also made room for our top two centers to stop playing second fiddle to Jagr and his antics. I think Sather and Renney did a fine job this summer (so far) in improving the roster with what was available. Clearly they targeted players like Hossa and Orpik and missed out on them, but they still brought in solid pieces to at least complete the puzzle. Is this years team a cup contender? Too early to say, but last year's team was clearly not a contender either. I understand you're not happy with the team, but you can't expect me to trust your opinion of "We're going to fail." (paraphrased) when we haven't even seen a single game and we don't even know what the final roster will look like.
I don't know how you define significantly...Do you really think Redden is that much of an upgrade over Tyutin? Do you really think that Kalinin is any better then Malik or Backman?

Sather and Renney did a piss poor job of not having a backup plan. Even they admited Zherdev "fell into there laps" so lets not go overboard praising a move they didn't even pursue.

Last years team was a contender..they made the playoffs and with a few calls big saves and lucky breaks who knows maybe they beat pittsburgh...ALSO...and this is really important...Two years of 2nd round playoff births is NOT rock bottom..It's not something you tear up..it's something you try to build on...

We have some idea what the opening night roster is going to look like and it is filled with more holes then swiss cheese...the worst part about this is in 3 months after a the rangers lose 2 or 3 in a row this board will be ready to jump off a cliff....want proof? read through the threads in oct-jan the past TWO SEASONS...this optomisitic view is admirable but it's rooted in false hope...IMO

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07-14-2008, 04:37 PM
  #91
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Quote:
Sjostrom's QO is reasonably, but his question is, OK, you have that QO, two 'fourth' liners at $1MM per and Fritsche going to arbitration, not to mention Cally, possibly Korps, etc. Somewhat expensive bottom six. Of course it's a stockpiling of sorts since they all won't be here through the end of the season.
I don't think $1M is as unreasonable for a bottom-six as Brooks thinks. there's no Pandolfo at $2.5M, no Holik at $2.5M etc. show me a bottom six that's cheaper, and I'll so you one that's worse (or more entry level contracts).

honestly though, the Rissmiller contract confused me somewhat. he's a player I've never been impressed with in my limited viewing. though it's easy to get out of a 1 year, $1M contract if need be.

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07-14-2008, 05:21 PM
  #92
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trx...

just wondering what Jagr's 'antics' were? I've actually always thought of Gomez and Drury as second fiddles. Not meant in a bad way, but they're on a level after Jagr and have always played with guys a bit better than them who led their teams. They seemed to usually come through as complementary players.

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07-14-2008, 05:26 PM
  #93
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SoS...

sometimes you have to tear it down to build it up again. I think Sather looked as last season as the one they had their best chance to make real noise. He tried to build upon the prior season. He borrowed from this season to pay for last season. Center was a position that seemed the most weak, so he acquired, for a high price, two centermen. Of course he forgot the team also needed a guy for the PP point.

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07-14-2008, 05:59 PM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
sometimes you have to tear it down to build it up again. I think Sather looked as last season as the one they had their best chance to make real noise. He tried to build upon the prior season. He borrowed from this season to pay for last season. Center was a position that seemed the most weak, so he acquired, for a high price, two centermen. Of course he forgot the team also needed a guy for the PP point.
I'm not so sure it was torn down, Fletch. Honestly, if you go back to 2004, at the trade deadline, that's when the team was torn down. Jagr was offered around the league, (as well as Holik), and there were no takers. There's no way the front office thought they had a playoff team in 2005-6. Weekes starting out as the #1 goalie is proof of that. The Rangers caught lightning in a bottle in 2005-6. But, all along, they've drafting players to play a certain way, the way Hartford has played the last few years. Kids like Dubinsky and Callahan, are more prepared to play how the Rangers want to play. The Jagr years were a transition. If Jagr wanted to play for a 1-year contract at $6 million, he'd be here.

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