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CKNW: Delorme stays; Dean and Marois fired

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Old
07-15-2008, 01:18 PM
  #26
Kid_Roll
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Originally Posted by TheHomelessAteMyCat View Post
Ting Tong?! LB reference, you're now my favourite poster! US version comes out in Sept

US version? Ah, nice, I hadn't heard about it.



Yeah, for some reason, the Jason character who gets off on old woman, cracks me up everytime.
Though the Prime Minister sketches are freaking hilarious too.
As is the lady who hates frogs.
Yeah I could keep going.

LB rules.

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Old
07-15-2008, 01:22 PM
  #27
Impossibles
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When will you guys realize that its the GM that makes the picks, not the head scouts. And the GM will give the head scout specific directions, I'm sure Gillis will operate the scouting department differently than Nonis/Burke did.

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07-15-2008, 01:25 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kid_Roll View Post
US version? Ah, nice, I hadn't heard about it.



Yeah, for some reason, the Jason character who gets off on old woman, cracks me up everytime.
Though the Prime Minister sketches are freaking hilarious too.
As is the lady who hates frogs.
Yeah I could keep going.

LB rules.
LB???

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Old
07-15-2008, 01:34 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Impossibles View Post
When will you guys realize that its the GM that makes the picks, not the head scouts. And the GM will give the head scout specific directions, I'm sure Gillis will operate the scouting department differently than Nonis/Burke did.
You do realize that not every organization works this way?

Detroit: Jim Nill makes the picks. Ken Holland gives his input but has openly stated that he has almost nothing to do with drafting.
St. Louis: Jarmo is their drafting guru. Pleau, Davidson, and Armstrong don't do much of anything other than offer their suggestions.

I'm sure other teams are like this. Not sure how Gillis plans to operate or how much input he even had in the last draft.

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07-15-2008, 01:35 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Impossibles View Post
LB???
They are talking about Little Britain. A British TV show, I believe.

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Old
07-15-2008, 01:35 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Impossibles View Post
And the GM will give the head scout specific directions, I'm sure Gillis will operate the scouting department differently than Nonis/Burke did.
And Ron Delorme will continue to give his "expert opinion" to Gillis on who to pick in later rounds.

"The things change, the more things stay the same" (or something like that).

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07-15-2008, 01:37 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
And Ron Delorme will continue to give his "expert opinion" to Gillis on who to pick in later rounds.

"The things change, the more things stay the same" (or something like that).
"The more things change, the more they stay the same." Is what you're going for.

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Old
07-15-2008, 01:42 PM
  #33
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Thanks. I knew what I wrote wasn't correct.

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Old
07-15-2008, 01:44 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
Thanks. I knew what I wrote wasn't correct.
You were very close, though.

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Old
07-15-2008, 01:48 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kid_Roll View Post
US version? Ah, nice, I hadn't heard about it.



Yeah, for some reason, the Jason character who gets off on old woman, cracks me up everytime.
Though the Prime Minister sketches are freaking hilarious too.
As is the lady who hates frogs.
Yeah I could keep going.

LB rules.
Andy is my favourite. "I want that one."

Apparently Rosie O'Donnel is on the US one, but not as the dyke barmaid.

Uhhh...and Ron Delorme sucks.

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Old
07-15-2008, 01:50 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yabanjin View Post
Not unexpected. Delorme's been with this organization for a long time. Obviously he's been doing something right. I thought it unfair that the vast majority of HFBoard posters felt they had the information necessary to evaluate his contributions to the drafting department, when in reality, that information is not public knowledge.

He was the head of amateur scouting. He was not head of drafting. He was not head of player development. He probably did his job well, was evaluated well, and thus remains a life-long Canuck.
And this is probably exactly why he's still got a job.

Gillis is a huge believer in the proper development of players which has never been a very strong suit of the Canucks imo. Delorme probably gets a bit of leeway from Gillis concidering the Canucks poor record of developing players.

Was Holden a bad pick or was he misshandled? I know that is a different era of scouting but you get my point....I hope.

Question though, is Stan Smyl now the director of player development or is that the job he just got demoted from? Did he have many winning records with the farm team?

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Old
07-15-2008, 01:53 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Eddy Punch Clock View Post
Question though, is Stan Smyl now the director of player development or is that the job he just got demoted from? Did he have many winning records with the farm team?
Smyl is now in charge of college scouting (basically for undrafted UFAs).

Dave Gagner is the new Director of Player Development.

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Old
07-15-2008, 01:57 PM
  #38
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Let's just hope that Delorme gets demoted. let him keep snepts company

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Old
07-15-2008, 01:58 PM
  #39
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He was demoted and Dave Gagner is now the head of player development.

Anyway, I am not sure if he deserves the heat that he does. I am quite certain every scout has mistakes on their resume, but keep in mind that Holden was not a risky pick. Consensus around the time was he was around that draft level. Nathan Smith might have been slightly "off the board" but still ranked very high by ALL scouts as well relative to his draft position.

I see this in the as it was interesting the AV kept his job but some of his assistants were fired. I guess through this methodical process somehow Gillis decided that he wasn't to blame for their woes as much as others *shrug*.

I don't think he was too big of a ***** to fire him or move him in the org, as he has done it before...

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Old
07-15-2008, 01:59 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yabanjin View Post
Not unexpected. Delorme's been with this organization for a long time. Obviously he's been doing something right. I thought it unfair that the vast majority of HFBoard posters felt they had the information necessary to evaluate his contributions to the drafting department, when in reality, that information is not public knowledge.

He was the head of amateur scouting. He was not head of drafting. He was not head of player development. He probably did his job well, was evaluated well, and thus remains a life-long Canuck.
some of our evaluation of Delorme stems from his radio interviews where he comes off sounding like a dinosaur

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Old
07-15-2008, 02:08 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by cc View Post
some of our evaluation of Delorme stems from his radio interviews where he comes off sounding like a dinosaur
Ah yes, the "halo effect"!

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Old
07-15-2008, 02:11 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by yabanjin View Post
Ah yes, the "halo effect"!
horn effect, actually.

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Old
07-15-2008, 02:13 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by yabanjin View Post
Ah yes, the "halo effect"!
it stands to reason that if a person sounds like they don't really have a clue about scouting and the draft record with him at the helm reflects this, then it's an easy conclusion to make.

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Old
07-15-2008, 02:22 PM
  #44
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what does the head of amateur scouting actually do?

I know Delorme is in charge of scouting the west. And admittedly drafting kids from the dub or other leagues has been subpar in spite of the Mason Raymond selection. However, our Q record has been just as dismal and drafting from the OHL has been quite poor as well. With Payne being hired last year and Marois being fired, these areas look to be addressed.

Gradin is lauded, as he should be, for his excellent European scouting.
Our US scouting isn't amazing but isn't terrible either.

But can anybody speak to examples of why Delorme makes for a poor head scout? And I don't mean "oh he sounds like an idiot in his interviews". I know he does. But with respect to actual job description, what makes Delorme so poor?

Is it the responsibility of the head scout to accrue information from the other scouts and rank based on what he feels are the best players?

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Old
07-15-2008, 02:36 PM
  #45
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US Solid

Quote:
Originally Posted by KDizzle View Post
what does the head of amateur scouting actually do?

I know Delorme is in charge of scouting the west. And admittedly drafting kids from the dub or other leagues has been subpar in spite of the Mason Raymond selection. However, our Q record has been just as dismal and drafting from the OHL has been quite poor as well. With Payne being hired last year and Marois being fired, these areas look to be addressed.

Gradin is lauded, as he should be, for his excellent European scouting.
Our US scouting isn't amazing but isn't terrible either.

But can anybody speak to examples of why Delorme makes for a poor head scout? And I don't mean "oh he sounds like an idiot in his interviews". I know he does. But with respect to actual job description, what makes Delorme so poor?

Is it the responsibility of the head scout to accrue information from the other scouts and rank based on what he feels are the best players?
I think that the US scouting in terms of the NCAA has been pretty good.
Players like Kesler, Umberger, Bieksa are all from the NCAA. Schneider is highly regarded as a goalie prospect. Mike Brown has a chance to make the NHL either this year or next as a 4th liner. Patrick White, wait and see if he's any good.

Since 1998, regular NHLers drafted by the Canucks hail from:

1998 - Allen - OHL, Chubarov - Russia, Ruutu - Finland
1999 - D & H. Sedin - Sweden
2000 - Nothing
2001 - RJ Umberger - NCAA, Bieksa - NCAA
2002 - Nothing
2003 - Kesler - NCAA
2004 - Schneider - NCAA (not NHL yet, but highly regarded prospect), Edler - Sweden
2005 - Bourdon - QMJHL, Raymond - AJHL

2004 - Mike Brown from NCAA and Jannik Hansen from Denmark could make the team this season.

NCAA has 3 regular NHLers, a top level goalie prospect and a potential 4th liner either this year or next (when Cowan is gone).

CHL scouting, all around needs major improvements.
Haven't seen the Nucks take players from Slovakia, Czech Republic, or Finland during the millennium.

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Old
07-15-2008, 02:38 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KDizzle View Post
what does the head of amateur scouting actually do?

I know Delorme is in charge of scouting the west. And admittedly drafting kids from the dub or other leagues has been subpar in spite of the Mason Raymond selection. However, our Q record has been just as dismal and drafting from the OHL has been quite poor as well. With Payne being hired last year and Marois being fired, these areas look to be addressed.

Gradin is lauded, as he should be, for his excellent European scouting.
Our US scouting isn't amazing but isn't terrible either.

But can anybody speak to examples of why Delorme makes for a poor head scout? And I don't mean "oh he sounds like an idiot in his interviews". I know he does. But with respect to actual job description, what makes Delorme so poor?

Is it the responsibility of the head scout to accrue information from the other scouts and rank based on what he feels are the best players?
I believe he stated that one of the things he does is help make the final decision on the final list as each scout has their own guys that want to push for. Otherwise, the scouts would be arguing with eachother until doomsday and would never agree. He makes the final decision based on the arguments of the varous scouts and his own personal scouting evaluations.

I suspect that's the whole trouble with firing him. His level involvement would always be in question. It's the same question of coach vs gm or employee vs manager.

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Old
07-15-2008, 02:39 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Street Hawk View Post
I think that the US scouting in terms of the NCAA has been pretty good.
Players like Kesler, Umberger, Bieksa are all from the NCAA. Schneider is highly regarded as a goalie prospect. Mike Brown has a chance to make the NHL either this year or next as a 4th liner. Patrick White, wait and see if he's any good.

Since 1998, regular NHLers drafted by the Canucks hail from:

1998 - Allen - OHL, Chubarov - Russia, Ruutu - Finland
1999 - D & H. Sedin - Sweden
2000 - Nothing
2001 - RJ Umberger - NCAA, Bieksa - NCAA
2002 - Nothing
2003 - Kesler - NCAA
2004 - Schneider - NCAA (not NHL yet, but highly regarded prospect), Edler - Sweden
2005 - Bourdon - QMJHL, Raymond - AJHL

2004 - Mike Brown from NCAA and Jannik Hansen from Denmark could make the team this season.

NCAA has 3 regular NHLers, a top level goalie prospect and a potential 4th liner either this year or next (when Cowan is gone).

CHL scouting, all around needs major improvements.
Haven't seen the Nucks take players from Slovakia, Czech Republic, or Finland during the millennium.
Very true.
Our US scouting is good. I was just hesitant to praise anything other than Gradin when it came to Canuck scouting

But getting to Delorme, would people be upset if we kept him as our head scout, but hired somebody else to handle actual scouting of the Western hockey leagues?

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Old
07-15-2008, 02:40 PM
  #48
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When I first heard this, I was disappointed that Delorme wasn't fired. Now, after thinking about it, I'm happy that at least 2 of our scouts from regions where we haven't had success are gone. With the addition of Payne last year I feel we are in a much better position than 2 years ago.

Quote:
Our US scouting isn't amazing but isn't terrible either.
I'll admit, I'm not sure who's responsible for all of the picks made from the US, but I'm pretty happy with the scouting that's been done there. Umberger (not the scouts fault we pissed him away), Kesler, Schneider and Bieksa were all drafted from the US. 3 of them were 1st rounders, but they are all solid players. The only pick in the top 100 since 2000 who hasn't turned out/isn't progressing would be Brett Skinner.

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Old
07-15-2008, 03:15 PM
  #49
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People also have to remember that Delorme's rankings are based on the GM's criteria as well (i.e. character guys for Gillis). Under Nonis the focus was almost entirely on skill players in the Detroit mold, but that got us some high skill guys with glaring weaknesses in their games.

In my view Delorme's scouting hasn't really been that bad. However, after having people lambast me in the past for defending him I don't feel like going through that again.

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Old
07-15-2008, 03:41 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Impossibles View Post
When will you guys realize that its the GM that makes the picks, not the head scouts. And the GM will give the head scout specific directions, I'm sure Gillis will operate the scouting department differently than Nonis/Burke did.
No, it doesn't work that way.

GMs do almost no amateur scouting - might go the the prospects game and the WJC or U-18s - and, for almost every organization in the league, will have very limited input on draft selections aside from maybe the #1 pick. In almost every case, the GM just rubber-stamps the recommendation of the scouting director.

The GM may provide a direction he wants the scouts to go (as Gillis has clearly done with the character/intelligence comments he's made), but when it comes to making the actual picks, will have nothing to do with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yabanjin
Not unexpected. Delorme's been with this organization for a long time. Obviously he's been doing something right. I thought it unfair that the vast majority of HFBoard posters felt they had the information necessary to evaluate his contributions to the drafting department, when in reality, that information is not public knowledge.

He was the head of amateur scouting. He was not head of drafting. He was not head of player development. He probably did his job well, was evaluated well, and thus remains a life-long Canuck.
We know damn well that he didn't do his job well.

Forget the job he did co-ordinating rankings from other scouts, and just look at what he did in his own region. Between Brent Sopel in 1995 and Mason Raymond in 2005, we selected 28 players out of Western Canada, where Delorme was based and was the main scout. Every single one of these selections was a bust. That's essentially 4 full drafts of players out of our own backyard without getting a single hit. You couldn't be that inept if you tried :

Josh Holden
Zenith Komarniski
Tyler Prosofsky
Clint Cabana
Jeff Scissons
Brad Ference
Ryan Bonni
Kyle Freadrich
David Darguzas
Matt Cockell
Rod Leroux
Peter Brady
Regan Darby
Paul Cabana
Ryan Thorpe
Josh Reed
Kevin Swanson
Darrell Hay
Nathan Smith
Nathan Barrett
Tim Smith
Brett Skinner
Rob McVicar
Ty Morris
Chad Brownlee
Matt Hansen
Andrew Sarauer
David Schulz

You could give my 86 y/o grandmother the CSS final rankings, let her do our picks, and she would have done a better job coming up with players than Delorme did. And that's not even getting into some of the ridiculous reasonings he's given behind some of our awful picks (Fuller, Roy, Clark) in the past.

It's just absolutely unquestionable that he should have been toast. Very disappointing.

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