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CKNW: Delorme stays; Dean and Marois fired

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Old
07-15-2008, 04:19 PM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MS View Post
You couldn't be that inept if you tried :
Maybe that's it!

Maybe he's trying to get canned, but nothing is working.

It's too bad we don't have a championship trophy for him to drag around the parking lot.

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07-15-2008, 04:42 PM
  #52
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You can make a list for any organization like that. Have you seen Edmonton or Phoenix's drafting? Not that I'm defending delorme.

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07-15-2008, 04:51 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by King Ryan View Post
Maybe that's it!

Maybe he's trying to get canned, but nothing is working.

It's too bad we don't have a championship trophy for him to drag around the parking lot.
He could always eat strawberries while wearing....uh....Orland Kurtenbach's jersey.

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07-15-2008, 04:55 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by sticknrink View Post
You can make a list for any organization like that. Have you seen Edmonton or Phoenix's drafting? Not that I'm defending delorme.
A list of 28 consecutive busts from the same scouting area? Show me.

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07-15-2008, 04:58 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King Ryan View Post
A list of 28 consecutive busts from the same scouting area? Show me.
26 straight busts, don't have the time to do the same league but whatever.

Matthew Spiller
Martin Podlesak
Beat Forster
David Klema
Scott Polaski
Steve Belanger
Frank Lukes
Severin Blindenbacher
Krys Kolanos
Alexander Tatarinov
Ramzi Abid
Nate Kiser
Brent Gauvreau
Igor Samoylov
Sami Venalainen
Peter Fabus
Scott Kelman
Kirill Safronov
Brad Ralph
Jason Jaspers
Ryan Lauzon
Preston Mizzi
Erik Lewerstrom
Goran Bezina
Alexei Litvinenko
Patrick DesRochers

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07-15-2008, 05:03 PM
  #56
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Phoenix. Good choice.

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07-15-2008, 05:04 PM
  #57
ginner classic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sticknrink View Post
26 straight busts, don't have the time to do the same league but whatever.

Matthew Spiller
Martin Podlesak
Beat Forster
David Klema
Scott Polaski
Steve Belanger
Frank Lukes
Severin Blindenbacher
Krys Kolanos
Alexander Tatarinov
Ramzi Abid
Nate Kiser
Brent Gauvreau
Igor Samoylov
Sami Venalainen
Peter Fabus
Scott Kelman
Kirill Safronov
Brad Ralph
Jason Jaspers
Ryan Lauzon
Preston Mizzi
Erik Lewerstrom
Goran Bezina
Alexei Litvinenko
Patrick DesRochers
Try doing that from the same league and get back to us.

Ron Delorme's ineptitude in a single scouting area is without parallel anywhere in the NHL. It's magnified by the fact that they massively overallocated picks to his scouting area (WHL) on his final recommendations with more picks than Finland, Slovakia, Tier 2, the QMJHL, and the OHL COMBINED.

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07-15-2008, 05:30 PM
  #58
MS
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Originally Posted by Ginner's in T.O. View Post
Try doing that from the same league and get back to us.

Ron Delorme's ineptitude in a single scouting area is without parallel anywhere in the NHL. It's magnified by the fact that they massively overallocated picks to his scouting area (WHL) on his final recommendations with more picks than Finland, Slovakia, Tier 2, the QMJHL, and the OHL COMBINED.
Exactly. Basically Delorme has two jobs :

1) Identify quality talent from the WHL.

2) Oversee the compilation of a balanced draft list reflecting the best talent from all over the world.

He's failed miserably at both. Ghastly record drafting out of Western Canada, and compounds the problem by over-rating his own opinion at the expense of better prospects from other areas.

Seriously, you could have let the Edmonton or Calgary scouts make those 28 picks for us and try to sabotage us, and they would have hit on 1 or 2 NHL players by accident. It's mind-boggling how terrible his record is.

And for the record, Phoenix was the worst drafting team in the stretch given, and that stretch culminated in the firing of virtually their entire scouting staff, so that isn't much of an argument in Delorme's favour.

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07-15-2008, 05:31 PM
  #59
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Update on my analysis from last year pre-draft:

Here is what we have done since Since 1994...

Europe
Mats Froshaug (08) -
Ilya Kablukov (07) -
Daniel Rahimi (06) -
Sergei Shirokov (06) -
Juraj Simek (06) -
Mario Bliznak (05) F
Alex Edler (04) S
Jannik Hansen (04) S
Nicklas Danielsson (03) F
Sergei Topol (03) F
Kiril Koltsov (02) S
Denis Grot (02) F
Lukas Mensator (02) F
Ilya Krikunov (02) F
Thomas Nussili (02) F
Evgeni Gladskikh (01) F
Konstantin Mikhalov (01) F
Pavel Duma (00) F
Sedin (99) S
Sedin (99) S
Vydareny (99) F
Kankaanpera (99) F
Chubarov (98) S
Ruutu (98) S
David Jonsson (98) F
Denis Martynyuk (97) F
Jonas Soling (96) F
Lubomir Vaic (96) F
Mattias Ohlund (94) S
Yuri Kuznetsov (94) F

Success 8
Fail 17
Borderline/Undecided 6


Hit rate: 8/25 = 32%
Best player = Ohlund

US College/HS/USHL
Pat White (07) -
Taylor Matson (07) -
Corey Schneider (04) S
Mike Brown (04) -
Ryan Kesler (03) S
Brett Skinner (02) F
John Laliberte (02) F
Matt Violin (02) F
Matt Gens (02) F
RJ Umberger (01) S
Kevin Bieksa (01) S
Josh Reed (99) F
Juston Morrison (98) F
Paul Cabana (98) F
Graig Mischler (98) F
Curtis Valentine (98) F
Nolan McDonald (96) F
Jeff Scissons (96) F
Stu Bodtker (95) F
Jason Cugnet (95) F
Bill Muckalt (94) S

Success 5
Fail 13
Borderline/Undecided 3


Hit rate = 5/18 = 27%
Best player = Bieksa

WHL
Prabh Rai (08) -
Matt Clark (08) -
Taylor Ellington (07) -
Dan Gendur (07) -
Michael Grabner (06) -
Evan Fuller (06) F
David Schulz (04) F
Ty Morris (03) F
Mathew Hansen (03) F
Rob McVicar (02) F
Nathan Smith (00) F
Nathan Barret (00) F
Tim Smith (00) F
Ryan Thorpe (99) F
Kevin Swanson (99) F
Darrell Hay (99) F
Regan Darby (98) F
Brad Ference (97) S
Ryan Bonni (97) F
Kyle Fredrich (97) F
David Darguzas (97) F
Matt Cockell (97) F
Rod Leroux (97) F
Josh Holden (96) S
Zenith Komarniski (96) F
Tyler Prosofsky (96) F
Clint Cabana (96) F
Chris McAllister (95) S
Peter Scheafer (95) S
Lloyd Shaw (95) F
Brent Sopel (95) S
Ty Willis (94) F
Dave Scatchard (94) S
Chad Allen (94) F
Mike Dubinsky (94) F
Rob Trumbley (94) F
Tyson Nash (94) S
Robert Longpre (94) F

Success 7
Fail 26
Borderline/Undecided 5


Hit rate = 21%
Best Player Picked = Scheafer

OHL
Cody Hodgson (08) -
Brandon Nolan (03) F
Nathan Mciver (03) F
Fedor Fedorov (01) F
Tim Branham (00) F
Bryan Allen (98) S
Rick Bertran (98) F
Jason Metcalfe (98) F
Harold Druken (97) S
Chris Stanley (97) F
Matt Cooke (97) S
Larry Shapely (97) F
Larry Coureville (95) F
Todd Norman (95) F

Success 3
Fail 10
Borderline/Undecided 1


Hit rate = 23%
Best player = Bryan Allen

QMJHL
Yann Sauve (08) -
Charles Antoine Messier (07) F
Luc Bourdon (05) S
Alex Vincente (05) F
Julien Ellis (04) -
Marc Andre Bernier (03) F
Francois Guenette (03) F
Marc Andre Roy (02) F
Jason King (01) S
Thatcher Bell (00) F
Brandon Reid (00) F
Vince Malts (98) F
Yanick Dube (94) F

Success 2
Fail 9
Borderline/Undecided 2


Hit rate = 18%
Best player = Bourdon


Tier 2 Junior
Mayson Raymond (05) S
Matt Butcher (05) -
Kris Fredheim (05) F
Andrew Sarauer (04) F
Chad Brownlee (03) F
Peter Brady (97) F
Rob Gordon (94) F

Success 1
Fail 5
Borderline/Undecided 1


Hit rate = 16%
Best player = Raymond


last hit from the WHL was in 1997
Number of players picked from the WHL since then = 17
Best player selected from the WHL in 38 selections was Peter Scheafer in 1995
Percentage of selections from WHL = 30.6%
Number of consecutive years without making a pick from the OHL (pre hodgson) = 4
Record number of picks from the WHL in one year = 6
league with the lowest % hit rate (excluding too early to tell) since 1996 = WHL
names of the 7 actual "hits" from the WHL since 1994: Nash, Scatchard, Scheafer, Sopel, McCallister, Holden and Ference
Number of first and second round picks in the WHL since 1994 = 8
Number of players selected from the WHL since 1994 still playing in the NHL = 2
Number of players selected from the WHL playing for the Canucks = 0


Damning evidence if you ask me.


Last edited by ginner classic: 07-15-2008 at 05:57 PM.
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Old
07-15-2008, 05:35 PM
  #60
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Are there any more details out about this? Looking at that list of picks, wow, that's...dreadful.

Is it possible that they higher a WHL scout, and keep Delorme as "head scout", where he kind of oversees everything that the other scouts are doing, and works kind of as an consultant to Gillis? Not responsible for actually WATCHING any players play, so really, just going on the reports of others, but still maintains the same position as "head scout". Not a demotion, just a change in duties?

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07-15-2008, 05:49 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MS View Post
Exactly. Basically Delorme has two jobs :

1) Identify quality talent from the WHL.

2) Oversee the compilation of a balanced draft list reflecting the best talent from all over the world.

He's failed miserably at both. Ghastly record drafting out of Western Canada, and compounds the problem by over-rating his own opinion at the expense of better prospects from other areas.

Seriously, you could have let the Edmonton or Calgary scouts make those 28 picks for us and try to sabotage us, and they would have hit on 1 or 2 NHL players by accident. It's mind-boggling how terrible his record is.

And for the record, Phoenix was the worst drafting team in the stretch given, and that stretch culminated in the firing of virtually their entire scouting staff, so that isn't much of an argument in Delorme's favour.
Bingo!

Also..... it's very typical of a Canuck apologist to justify the horrific management of an aspect of the team by saying: "Well it's not like we are the worst in the league." My god....my sweet, sweet god.

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Old
07-15-2008, 05:52 PM
  #62
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There are few ways to put a good face on this. I've not been one to jump all over Gillis but I was hoping he would demand more. Delorme's record speaks for itself and it is not good. The scouting department has not produced, during the the Delorme era, anything like the type of players needed to contend. And, along the way, there have been some catastrophic and well-documented blunders

I thought that the firing off Delorme might send a message throughout the organization that the kind of mediocrity (and that might be kindly stating it) shown by the scouting staff was not going to be acceptable. I can only hope that Gillis's hand was stayed by the lack of suitable replacement.

Far as the Scouting /Gm breakdown in player selection, it seems to vary from team to team. I got the feeling Nonis was very closely involved in player selection. Right after the Bourdon choice, Nonis went into a detailed description of Bourdon's attributes, and how they were suited to the 'new NHL', and how he was sold on Bourdon after watching him at the World under 18 championship. GM's like Doug MacLean, also, seemed to be heavily involved. He said he was sold on Brule and that was the guy he targeted for selection. Other GMs, like Holland, seem to leave it to the scouts.

Believe DeBlois is the chief scout in the Q and that Marios was scouting in the OHL. Dean was the person responsible for getting Raymond.

In some ways , Gillis's decision to not fire Delorme fits the general pattern he has established so far. Very gradual and deliberate. Like with the coaching he he retained the overall structure but made changes around the edge. Gillis seems a cautious person who only does things after he has thought about them for a considerable time. Might well want more time to assess people like AV and Delorme.

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Old
07-15-2008, 05:58 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by orcatown View Post
Believe DeBlois is the chief scout in the Q and that Marios was scouting in the OHL. Dean was the person responsible for getting Raymond.
Just a correction, according to this page it says that Marois was the Quebec scout. Deblois is actually a pro scout.

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07-15-2008, 06:03 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orcatown View Post
Far as the Scouting /Gm breakdown in player selection, it seems to vary from team to team. I got the feeling Nonis was very closely involved in player selection. Right after the Bourdon choice, Nonis went into a detailed description of Bourdon's attributes, and how they were suited to the 'new NHL', and how he was sold on Bourdon after watching him at the World under 18 championship. GM's like Doug MacLean, also, seemed to be heavily involved. He said he was sold on Brule and that was the guy he targeted for selection. Other GMs, like Holland, seem to leave it to the scouts.
I think the most likely scenario is that the GM is heavily involved in the first-round selection, and relies more on his supporting staff the deeper into the draft we go. Not too dissimilar from the fans here, really. This is backed up in books I've read that show insight into the front office.

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07-15-2008, 06:16 PM
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this reminds me of AV, fire the henchmen and keep the boss

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07-15-2008, 06:20 PM
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IMO if Delome's fault is he is weighting his own WHL scouting as being more important than what the other junior league and Euro scouts tell him, then he needs to either not scout the WHL and let someone else do that, or just be the WHL scout and someone else mediate the selection process.

If this is how it works then its sort of a conflict of interest, as no human can remove bias from their own work like that no matter who you are.

I wonder if the GM does this before the draft or not. In the end someone has to make the decision but it should be done on best available info and without bias if possible, but when you see something or have a gut feeling its hard to ignore. Delorme's intuition may not be good and he may be very good at finding other top class scouts though!

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07-15-2008, 06:24 PM
  #67
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Seriously, who does Delorme have dirt on?

I would have thought that everyone he could possibly have dirt have moved on by now... maybe it's Bettman.

BETTMAN!

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07-15-2008, 06:51 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MS View Post
No, it doesn't work that way.

GMs do almost no amateur scouting - might go the the prospects game and the WJC or U-18s - and, for almost every organization in the league, will have very limited input on draft selections aside from maybe the #1 pick. In almost every case, the GM just rubber-stamps the recommendation of the scouting director.

The GM may provide a direction he wants the scouts to go (as Gillis has clearly done with the character/intelligence comments he's made), but when it comes to making the actual picks, will have nothing to do with it.



We know damn well that he didn't do his job well.

Forget the job he did co-ordinating rankings from other scouts, and just look at what he did in his own region. Between Brent Sopel in 1995 and Mason Raymond in 2005, we selected 28 players out of Western Canada, where Delorme was based and was the main scout. Every single one of these selections was a bust. That's essentially 4 full drafts of players out of our own backyard without getting a single hit. You couldn't be that inept if you tried :

Josh Holden
Zenith Komarniski
Tyler Prosofsky
Clint Cabana
Jeff Scissons
Brad Ference
Ryan Bonni
Kyle Freadrich
David Darguzas
Matt Cockell
Rod Leroux
Peter Brady
Regan Darby
Paul Cabana
Ryan Thorpe
Josh Reed
Kevin Swanson
Darrell Hay
Nathan Smith
Nathan Barrett
Tim Smith
Brett Skinner
Rob McVicar
Ty Morris
Chad Brownlee
Matt Hansen
Andrew Sarauer
David Schulz

You could give my 86 y/o grandmother the CSS final rankings, let her do our picks, and she would have done a better job coming up with players than Delorme did. And that's not even getting into some of the ridiculous reasonings he's given behind some of our awful picks (Fuller, Roy, Clark) in the past.

It's just absolutely unquestionable that he should have been toast. Very disappointing.
I see you've done your homework. Unquestionably, even without knowledge of what goes on behind closed doors, you've done a better job at assessing Ron Delorme's performance than Mike Gillis, who only has the benefit of internal memos, player appraisals, performance evaluations, draft lists and other documents. It's unconscionable that Delorme still has a job!

Maybe Gillis should hire you as a scout performance evaluation consultant

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07-15-2008, 07:03 PM
  #69
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Hasn't Barry Dean been the Western Scout for X number of years?

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07-15-2008, 08:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yabanjin View Post
I see you've done your homework. Unquestionably, even without knowledge of what goes on behind closed doors, you've done a better job at assessing Ron Delorme's performance than Mike Gillis, who only has the benefit of internal memos, player appraisals, performance evaluations, draft lists and other documents. It's unconscionable that Delorme still has a job!
Instead of simply playing Henry Fonda's character from 12 Angry Men how about you form an intelligent argument (like MS did) that doesn't drip of sarcasm?

You know, you can slag anyones opinion as much as you want but when you don't contribute any insight to support your point it doesn't make for a good argument.

We've all seen the reasons why Delorme shouldn't be in office.

Now, lets see an argument as to why he still [/i]is[/i] employed. I'd like to see it.

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07-15-2008, 08:22 PM
  #71
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So aside from completely firing Delorme, which would be the better option?

Let Delorme be head scout but tell him to stay away from the western hockey leagues?

or let Delorme scout the western hockey leagues but give somebody else the head scout title.

Given his track record, I'd obviously say just fire him.
But also given the fact that he seems to have staying power even despite Gillis' intentions to improve scouting and player development, I'd say do the former.

Have somebody else scout and have Delorme mediate compiling the list. He's clearly not a great evaluator of talent, maybe he makes a better list-compiler?

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07-15-2008, 08:23 PM
  #72
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According to this article posted at Canucks.com about Delorme, he is based largely around Vancouver.

Certainly then you'd think he bears some responsibility for poor picks in the dub that played near the lower mainland, but if you're going to pillory him over our record in the dub what about these guys?

Barry Dean - Saskatchewan
Jim Eagle - Cranbrook
Harold Snepsts - Vancouver
Tim Lenardon - Kelowna
Rich Rothermel - Victoria

Also, considering (again according to the site) he's travelled 130 000 KM in the last year I have a hard time believing he spends most of his time in the lower mainland watching BCHL and WHL games - most likely he has his duties as director and spends most of his time in town working on that, and does most of his actual scouting at various major tournaments around the world.

I don't see how he could possibly rack up that many miles scouting in Vancouver, and unless the website is fabricating information about his travel or scouting turf I don't see another explanation for this other than that he doesn't do a lot of scouting these days.

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07-15-2008, 08:32 PM
  #73
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Delorme has to do something we dont know about. His scouting and drafting record has been ripped to shreds, and rightfully so, by MS and the more knowledgeable posters around here and unless there was a complete and utter lack of replacements out there there has to be something going on we dont know or understand.

One pure speculative possibility is that Delorme is a good buearacrat to have in the office as far as organizing the staff and assignments goes, handling and organizing reports, etc and that Gillis himself will just listen to scouts themselves more so than Ronny boy to make picks, and as others have suggested, go with a more 'committee style' consensus drafting process.

I dont know. Whatever the reason he has for staying cant be based on his drafting record, atleast I hope not.

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07-15-2008, 08:41 PM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King Ryan View Post
I think the most likely scenario is that the GM is heavily involved in the first-round selection, and relies more on his supporting staff the deeper into the draft we go. Not too dissimilar from the fans here, really. This is backed up in books I've read that show insight into the front office.
I would tend to agree, and would add that the first pick is more of an organizational decision (but it`s not like this is written in stone). Take for example how Gretzky made a point of going to watch Kyle Turris in a BCHL game during a roadtrip to Vancouver and apparently took him to breakfast, and ultimately drafted the kid. Gretz isn`t even the GM, but he is more than just a `head coach`....yet he is far removed from being just a scout obviously, so I think it`s relevant.

I personally would not be happy with a GM who hasn`t done a ton of homework himself with regard to the 1st and even the 2nd pick of the draft.

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Old
07-15-2008, 08:47 PM
  #75
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horrible decision. Here we go again. Gauranteed.

our 2nd round pick this year if we do have it, is another stay at home defencemen whois at 6'2 with no offensive upside, just simple stay at home, guy with grit and toughness. ugh.

I assume, Gillis will give him 1 more chance, with his criteria.

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