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CKNW: Delorme stays; Dean and Marois fired

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Old
07-15-2008, 09:57 PM
  #76
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the benchmark should be at least 2 players from every draft. there was a draft under delorme's watch in which nobody made it. that shouldn't be acceptable.

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07-15-2008, 10:00 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AgentNaslund View Post
horrible decision. Here we go again. Gauranteed.

our 2nd round pick this year if we do have it, is another stay at home defencemen whois at 6'2 with no offensive upside, just simple stay at home, guy with grit and toughness. ugh.

I assume, Gillis will give him 1 more chance, with his criteria.
To be fair, Sauve does have upside. Before the last season ended he was largely considered a top pick for the draft. I'd say it was a pretty decent selection for the pick he eventually went at.

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Old
07-15-2008, 10:02 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by canuck293 View Post
To be fair, Sauve does have upside. Before the last season ended he was largely considered a top pick for the draft. I'd say it was a pretty decent selection for the pick he eventually went at.
yes, I didn't mind sauve's pick either.

I find it ironic that when Delorme's butt is on the line, he pulls off his best draft in years.

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07-15-2008, 10:03 PM
  #79
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The only way I can fathom this is if Gillis has other candidates for head scout in mind, but they aren't available at the moment. He may be holding on to Delorme because he doesn't want to promote or hire from outside for a short term. Easier to just keep what you have and then fire when something better becomes available.

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Old
07-15-2008, 10:06 PM
  #80
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I think our scouting has improved considerably the last 5 years. Yes we've missed a couple good players in the first rounds, but we've made much better decisions overall.

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Old
07-15-2008, 10:41 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by KDizzle View Post
So aside from completely firing Delorme, which would be the better option?

Let Delorme be head scout but tell him to stay away from the western hockey leagues?

or let Delorme scout the western hockey leagues but give somebody else the head scout title.

Given his track record, I'd obviously say just fire him.
But also given the fact that he seems to have staying power even despite Gillis' intentions to improve scouting and player development, I'd say do the former.

Have somebody else scout and have Delorme mediate compiling the list. He's clearly not a great evaluator of talent, maybe he makes a better list-compiler?

best solution: he announces his retirement well before the draft.

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Old
07-15-2008, 10:46 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by John Belushi View Post
Instead of simply playing Henry Fonda's character from 12 Angry Men how about you form an intelligent argument (like MS did) that doesn't drip of sarcasm?

You know, you can slag anyones opinion as much as you want but when you don't contribute any insight to support your point it doesn't make for a good argument.

We've all seen the reasons why Delorme shouldn't be in office.

Now, lets see an argument as to why he still [/i]is[/i] employed. I'd like to see it.
Okay in the same time period used above the league as a whole drafted 667 players from the WHL.

115 of them either wound up being borderline NHLers (as in ~100 gps in their career) or it is too early to tell if they can be considered a bust yet.

107 of those players are successful draft picks.

445 of those players are busts.

That means that the league as a whole picked successfully 107 out of 552 giving a hit rate of 19.4%.

Therefore Delorme is almost 2% better then the league at pick from the WHL.

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Old
07-15-2008, 11:29 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by CHacker View Post
Okay in the same time period used above the league as a whole drafted 667 players from the WHL.

115 of them either wound up being borderline NHLers (as in ~100 gps in their career) or it is too early to tell if they can be considered a bust yet.

107 of those players are successful draft picks.

445 of those players are busts.

That means that the league as a whole picked successfully 107 out of 552 giving a hit rate of 19.4%.

Therefore Delorme is almost 2% better then the league at pick from the WHL.
Excellent analysis, I use the same tactic for analyzing real estate investments when comparing the city's market to the Province.

If Delorme is outpacing the league percentage-wise in player development from WHL, then he is doing his job.

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Old
07-16-2008, 12:01 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by CHacker View Post
Okay in the same time period used above the league as a whole drafted 667 players from the WHL.

115 of them either wound up being borderline NHLers (as in ~100 gps in their career) or it is too early to tell if they can be considered a bust yet.

107 of those players are successful draft picks.

445 of those players are busts.

That means that the league as a whole picked successfully 107 out of 552 giving a hit rate of 19.4%.

Therefore Delorme is almost 2% better then the league at pick from the WHL.
The poster with the 'success rate' post was very generous with the rankings, calling Josh Holden, Brad Ference, and Chris McAllister 'successful' draft picks. It's also skewed somewhat because we had a couple good drafts from the WHL a very long time ago in 1994-95, while the recent, more relevant drafts have been terrible.

From 1996 onward, we are 0/22 from the WHL by my reckoning, and thus are 19.4% lower the average as you calculated it. An 'average' club should have found 4 or 5 players over that span using that many selections.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yabanjin
I see you've done your homework. Unquestionably, even without knowledge of what goes on behind closed doors, you've done a better job at assessing Ron Delorme's performance than Mike Gillis, who only has the benefit of internal memos, player appraisals, performance evaluations, draft lists and other documents. It's unconscionable that Delorme still has a job!
Sarcasm is nice and all, but could you give some actual reasons why Delorme should stay?

He's had a decade in charge, and his track record is plainly there for everyone to see. It isn't good enough, and the record in the area he is based in is horrible. The bizarre distribution of draft picks is also there for everyone to see. So are some of Delorme's very strange comments attempting to show reasoning behind some of our picks.

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Old
07-16-2008, 12:10 AM
  #85
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thinking about this one more... there is almost no way to justify it. Gillis has made some bold changes.

Demoting Smyl (captain, heart and soul of the team at one point), and cut ties with both Naslund and Morrison, long time serving Canucks.

He obviously recognizes that Delorme is not a good scout. He has said numerous times that he and Aquillini are going to attack the player development aspect of the organization with resources ($$$) and more manpower.

The only plausible explanation is that they want someone who is currently under contract. I'd throw a wad of cash at Kekalainen in St. Louis (who is already being paid like a GM) and try and pry him away. I think he is currently the best mind out there in the hockey world.

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Old
07-16-2008, 12:13 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by HankyFourFingers View Post
thinking about this one more... there is almost no way to justify it. Gillis has made some bold changes.

Demoting Smyl (captain, heart and soul of the team at one point), and cut ties with both Naslund and Morrison, long time serving Canucks.

He obviously recognizes that Delorme is not a good scout. He has said numerous times that he and Aquillini are going to attack the player development aspect of the organization with resources ($$$) and more manpower.

The only plausible explanation is that they want someone who is currently under contract. I'd throw a wad of cash at Kekalainen in St. Louis (who is already being paid like a GM) and try and pry him away. I think he is currently the best mind out there in the hockey world.
Actually I think another possible explanation is what Cocoa Crisp brought up and that's to let Delorme retire seemingly on his own terms.

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07-16-2008, 12:15 AM
  #87
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didn't think about that one. Allows him to step away with some dignity. We'll see.

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Old
07-16-2008, 01:04 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by KDizzle View Post
Actually I think another possible explanation is what Cocoa Crisp brought up and that's to let Delorme retire seemingly on his own terms.
I could be wrong, but I really doubt that's the plan. I'm sure Gillis has known for months what direction he wanted to go. If that was the play, he would have had "the talk" and let Delorme retire a couple weeks ago then come out and announce the new vision going forward. Handing out pink slips then waiting on a retirement would be pretty transparent.

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07-16-2008, 01:14 AM
  #89
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Try to think positive: maybe Gradin told Gillis he couldn't come over right away, so Delorme's just warming the chair until then.

Seriously, though, I wonder just how the scouts fit into Gillis' Moneyball-style management. A big chunk of that book was about how Billy Beane didn't have much use for traditional scouting staff. If that's the case here, the damage Delorme can do might be limited more than it has been in the past.

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07-16-2008, 01:47 AM
  #90
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Not to be the grammer police or anything, but Delorme's name is incorrectly spelt in the thread title...

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Old
07-16-2008, 01:49 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by KDizzle View Post
Actually I think another possible explanation is what Cocoa Crisp brought up and that's to let Delorme retire seemingly on his own terms.
That's what I feel is the real reason as well from reading the article concerning Delorme's last days. I received the impression that he was saying his last words when talking about how he missed his kids grow up and is anticipating on watching his grandchildren grow up. I predict he will make an announcement in the next month or so after he spends time with his family and has probably already notified Gillis that this was his last stint as a scout.

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Old
07-16-2008, 01:52 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Lard_Lad View Post
Try to think positive: maybe Gradin told Gillis he couldn't come over right away, so Delorme's just warming the chair until then.

Seriously, though, I wonder just how the scouts fit into Gillis' Moneyball-style management. A big chunk of that book was about how Billy Beane didn't have much use for traditional scouting staff. If that's the case here, the damage Delorme can do might be limited more than it has been in the past.
I think Gradin's talents as a player evaluator might actually be a bit wasted as the head scout.
He has a nack for finding 2nd round level prospects that can be hand after the 4th round.
I'd just keep Gradin happy .. send him trinkets, virgins and meatballs .. anything.

Kekäläinen sounds like a good choice.. all though I believe he might be looking for a GM job somewhere.

Promoting someone from within sounds like the way Nucks operate and probably the only likely solution anyways.
I wouldn't even begin to know who that guy could be tho...

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Old
07-16-2008, 02:05 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by DragonGG View Post
Not to be the grammer police or anything, but Delorme's name is incorrectly spelt in the thread title...
The first time I read the thread I thought to myself, 'when did the Canucks get Andy Delmore?'.

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Old
07-16-2008, 02:08 AM
  #94
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I'm not fired!

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Old
07-16-2008, 02:42 AM
  #95
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Abso****inglutely incredible.

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Old
07-16-2008, 02:54 AM
  #96
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Are we comparing the job Delorme has done as a scout period, or what he's accomplished as the Canucks head scout? I'm not his biggest fan - not a fan at all actually - but Delorme has been the head scout since Aug 2000, which means that most of these selections we're looking at weren't his call. The 2000 draft disaster was headed by Mike Penny, as Delormes first draft would have been 2001.
Looking at the numbers since 2001 aren't great, but aren't terrible either.

By the previously posted rankings, since 2001

Europe 3/12 (5)
US College 4/8 (3)
WHL 0/5 (5)
OHL 0/3 (1)
QMJHL 2/7 (2)
Tier 2 1/4 (1)

Total 10/39 (17)


Yes, passing on Kopitar still pisses me off. I think they have been a few other questionable picks as well. But while he hasn't been spectacular, he has been solid. His first round picks have been Umberger, Kesler, Schneider, Bourdon, Grabner, White and Hodgson. While it's too soon to say on some of them, to this point there are zero busts. The only other picks Vancouver had in this time that were in the top 60 were Kolstov - by all accounts a solid player, Raymond, who seems to have potential, Grot, Bernier, Elligton and Sauve. It's too soon to tell on the last 2, which makes him 2/4 on 2nd round picks in my book. He's come up with Bieksa, McIver, Hansen, Edler and King in the later rounds, and who knows if our last few drafts will add to this list.

I know some will argue that Edler was all Gradin (somewhat justifiably so), but I'm trying to treat all picks made when he was in charge equally.

It's not his fault Burke pissed away Umberger and 2nd round picks. He wasn't in charge of the train wreck that was the Moose under Stan Smyl.

The scouts fired today come from 2 regions. First, Marois in Quebec since 2001.

Quote:
Yann Sauve (08) -
Charles Antoine Messier (07) F
Luc Bourdon (05) S
Alex Vincente (05) F
Julien Ellis (04) -
Marc Andre Bernier (03) F
Francois Guenette (03) F
Marc Andre Roy (02) F
Jason King (01) S
Calling King a success is pushing it in my mind. The only other hit here was Bourdon who was a top 10 pick. Should we have selected someon else here? Yes, and I don't blame Marois for skipping Kopitar - but that would have left him 1/7, with the one being King. Good riddance*.

Then Dean, in the WHL (Sask).
Quote:
Prabh Rai (08) -
Matt Clark (08) -
Taylor Ellington (07) -
Dan Gendur (07) -
Michael Grabner (06) -
Evan Fuller (06) F
David Schulz (04) F
Ty Morris (03) F
Mathew Hansen (03) F
Rob McVicar (02) F

Mayson Raymond (05) S
Kris Fredheim (05) F

This is one I'm not sure about, simply because of his region. He would see the WHL guys come through, but how often? Did he duck into the states to catch any games? Did he sneak over to Camrose to see Raymond? I'm going to leave the rest blank regarding Dean - see it as you wish.


I would like to say that I realize it's not just who you draft, it's who you don't draft. Skipping on Kopitar, not having an OHL scout to see Richards, not picking up on Bergeron. Our scouts have definetly been guilty of these and other offences and Delorme is in charge of this. Once again, I don't think the guy is a great scout - just not as bad as he's being made out to be.


*I'm actually not sure when Marois or Dean were hired. I'm going off the regions scouting record under Delorme. Feel free to correct me if someone else was in charge.

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07-16-2008, 04:00 AM
  #97
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They played an interview with Delorme on Sportstalk tonight (for those of you who want to hear it, it's about 15 minutes into the 9PM clip in the Audio Vault). A couple key points:

- Said the biggest mistake he ever made was taking Russians, of the bunch he had taken, none came over despite the fact they offered them contracts.
- Is happy with what they've done as a group.
- Hard to let go of Barry Dean since he was an old teammate (and apparently an old teammate of Gillis as well) and had been a scout for 9 years.
- Said that the philosophy will be changing quite a bit and will be taking them in a whole new direction. Tambellini, Gillis, and Delorme are meeting this week to discuss how things are going to change in the future.

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Old
07-16-2008, 04:02 AM
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MS View Post
The poster with the 'success rate' post was very generous with the rankings, calling Josh Holden, Brad Ference, and Chris McAllister 'successful' draft picks. It's also skewed somewhat because we had a couple good drafts from the WHL a very long time ago in 1994-95, while the recent, more relevant drafts have been terrible.

From 1996 onward, we are 0/22 from the WHL by my reckoning, and thus are 19.4% lower the average as you calculated it. An 'average' club should have found 4 or 5 players over that span using that many selections.
And I was just as generous when adding players to the league success rate as I included players like Kris Beech and Josh Harding as "successful" picks.

It is far too early to consider Grabner and Ellington busts and you can't just claim that Ference was a total bust he did get 250 NHL games in so we are actually 1 for 20 during this time period. Which isn't very good.

However what isn't being taken into account is draft position.

Of the "successful" players 61 where picked in the first 2 rounds with 167 players from the WHL selected in those rounds, a 36.5% average. The rest of the rounds have had 46 "successful" players picked with out of 436 a 10.6% average.

The Canucks have picked a player from the WHL in the first 2 rounds 7 times in this time period with 2 "successful" picks and 2 players that it is too early to tell (Grabner and Ellington) so they are 2 for 5 or 40% with these picks (if we ignore 94 and 95 they are 1 for 3, a 33.3% average or I guess 0 for 3 since Brad Ference doesn't count). Which leaves us with the Canucks picking 28 WHL players in rounds 3 and below with 4 of them successful in this time frame, a 14.3% success rate. Ignoring 94 and 95 the Canucks have gone 0 for 17 with these picks.

They should be expected to pick 1.8 players with those later round picks and 1.8 players with the early rounds picks. So they should have picked 3.6 players with these picks and they managed to get 7 players which really isn't that bad. If we assume that the percentages are holding true even if we exclude the 94 and 95 years the Canucks are only 2.6 players behind where they should be.

While I do agree that 1994 is too far back to really consider I was just working with what was already put out there. My only point was you cannot look at the picks in a bubble and look for a pattern to fit a preconceived notion

Personally I think the problem isn't so much with the scouting staff as it is with the focus previous GMs had the scouting staff evaluate players based on, with Nonis being light years ahead of Burke, Keenan, and Quinn (granted that isn't hard). Gillis seems to continuing down the same path that Nonis did, but with a slightly different, more holistic focus, one that isn't obsessed with size, or some other metric that can make you over look everything else the player offers.

Without a doubt the scouting and drafting need to improve, but I really think that player development is more of the issue then the scouting is.

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07-16-2008, 04:07 AM
  #99
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Delorme can be demoted to head scout of my foot in his ass.

Terrible decision. Wonder why the hell Gillis wouldn't can him.

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Old
07-16-2008, 09:38 PM
  #100
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Delorme played with Gillis in Colorado so who knows...Gillis was a soft player but judging by his style as an agent and manager to date he seems like the type to shoot his mouth off...maybe Chief bailed his ass out on a few occasions back then and Gillis owes him?

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