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HOH Top 100 List - Other People's Lists

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Old
07-16-2008, 05:03 PM
  #1
Kyle McMahon
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HOH Top 100 List - Other People's Lists

Quote:
Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
LOL, what is your top 120? It seems like bure, lindros, gilmour, fedorov and belfour are not good enough. I guarantee your list is full of guys that played before you were born.
You know what, I've tried to be reasonably polite up to this point, but you are an absolute idiot.

I was born in 1987, so like Thornton said, almost all of my list played before I was born. But unlike you and those of your ilk, I'm aware that hockey was played for a century before my time.

My list gives fair representation to all periods of hockey. Since only ~15% of all hockey played has occured since I was born, it should be reasonable that only ~15% of the players on my list have played during my lifetime.

By my count 29/120 of my players have played at least some of their careers post-1987, which is 24%. From a mathematical stand-point, I've over-represented my era.

Taking into account the fact that the game has grown is size and players quite significantly in the years since I was born, this 24% figure looks pretty damn accurate to me.

I'd like to see your list, then we could all have a good laugh. It would probably only have five guys who played pre-expansion.

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Old
07-16-2008, 05:30 PM
  #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon View Post
I'd like to see your list, then we could all have a good laugh. It would probably only have five guys who played pre-expansion.
I would also like to see ushvinder's list - just his top 100 would suffice. It's a heck of a lot easier to pick and choose which spots you don't agree with than it is to actually do the legwork and create the list in the first place.

So how about it?

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07-16-2008, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor No View Post
I would also like to see ushvinder's list - just his top 100 would suffice. It's a heck of a lot easier to pick and choose which spots you don't agree with than it is to actually do the legwork and create the list in the first place.

So how about it?
give me until friday and i'll make a list.

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07-16-2008, 06:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
give me until friday and i'll make a list.
Sweet! I'm looking forward to your contribution.

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Old
07-16-2008, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor No View Post
I would also like to see ushvinder's list - just his top 100 would suffice. It's a heck of a lot easier to pick and choose which spots you don't agree with than it is to actually do the legwork and create the list in the first place.

So how about it?
I would like to see his list as well - Eric Lindros in the top 25? I've been interested in the Top 100 list project since you guys began it. Thought briefly of submitting my own list, but decided that I really don't know enough about players who played more than 20 years ago (other than the likes of Orr, Howe, etc) to submit any form of a reasonable all-time list.

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07-16-2008, 07:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I would like to see his list as well - Eric Lindros in the top 25? I've been interested in the Top 100 list project since you guys began it. Thought briefly of submitting my own list, but decided that I really don't know enough about players who played more than 20 years ago (other than the likes of Orr, Howe, etc) to submit any form of a reasonable all-time list.
That was similar to my problem - I started into it, and then realized that it would take a lot of revisions before I was happy with my own list (plus it was during a big exam and a big workload time in my life). So I sat things out, but I'm enjoying the discussions immensely.

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Old
07-16-2008, 07:02 PM
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ushvinder
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I would like to see his list as well - Eric Lindros in the top 25? I've been interested in the Top 100 list project since you guys began it. Thought briefly of submitting my own list, but decided that I really don't know enough about players who played more than 20 years ago (other than the likes of Orr, Howe, etc) to submit any form of a reasonable all-time list.
My top 15 is pretty much a lock

1. gretzky
2. orr
3. howe
4. lemieux
5. shore
6. bobby hull
7. harvey
8. bourque
9. beliveau
10. rocket
11. hasek
12.roy
13. plante
14. jagr
15. messier

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Old
07-16-2008, 07:55 PM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
My top 15 is pretty much a lock

1. gretzky
2. orr
3. howe
4. lemieux
5. shore
6. bobby hull
7. harvey
8. bourque
9. beliveau
10. rocket
11. hasek
12.roy
13. plante
14. jagr
15. messier
You are probably one of 3 members of this forum that would throw Jagr in the top 15, but you know that already.


I have to question your criteria as well. Messier for instance. You said this about Yzerman in a recent post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Yzerman is a bit overrated, he's a great player but he's only been top 5 three different times. That's quite low for someone that ranks within the top 40 of all times.
Yet Messier just about falls into the exact same category.
I responded with:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thornton_19 View Post
Are you talking about top 5 finishes in points?

So have several other players ranked top 40.

Bobby Clarke only has 3, Mark Messier just barely squeezes by with 4. Milt Schmidt only has 3........All 3 of them are rated higher than Yzerman.

Just after him but still in the top 40, Syl apps only has 3, Geoffrion only has 2.......

Not so rare a thing.

A fact made more present by the fact that Yzerman played on the dead wings, and had bums on his lines until just past the early 90's. Messier, for all his greatness, should have a few more considering he played his first few years as Gretzky's left wing on an offense only team.
Further throw in the fact that Yzerman was better defensively(Messier was solid, but never a Selke Candidate), Yzerman was roughly an equal leader, and as I said, in his prime, played with Bums.

Not that I disagree that Messier was better. I ranked Messier higher than Yzerman too, and in the top 20. I just question how you differentiate the criteria since you harped on Yzerman's scoring record when Messier has a nearly identical scoring record and played on far better teams in his scoring prime.

Also, you made this post about Eddie Shore and Doug Harvey recently, attempting to lessen their credentials in favor of Bourque.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
You know I used to think Shore and Harvey were a class above Bourque, but i'm really starting to change my opinion on this.

Eddie Shore's 4 hart trophies is what gets him his high ranking, but really is competition for the hart trophy compared to Bourque's is a joke. In eddie's era, B level defencemen were finishing high in hart trophy voting, while Bourque was once arguably robbed of the trophy and he finished 2nd to gretzky, no shame in that.

The edge Doug Harvey has on Raymond is 7-5 in Norris Trophies. However, besides Red Kelly, Tim Horton and Pierre Pilote, who really was his competition? Throughtout Ray Bourque's career he had Brad Park, Denis Potvin, Larry Robinson, Rod Langway, Paul Coffey, Chris Chelios, Al Maccinnis, Leetch, Pronger, Stevens and Lidstrom to compete against, this is probably the best competition of all time. I highly doubt doug harvey is going to win a norris when Paul Coffey is putting up those monster season, I highly dobt he wins the norris when Langway reduces the number of goals scored by 120 in back to back seasons. Doug Harvey is getting the 'untouchable' myth, but his competition was a notch below Bourque's.

13 first team all stars and 6 2nd team all stars is equivalent to 19 elite seasons at your position. Raymond is a top 10er of all times, hence why he has 4,600 hhof monitor points.
Your argument was afterward debunked by several posters, but it seems you changed your mind again?

I also question your use of HHOF monitor points since a month ago, you were asking us what they were and you still seem to have a slanted view of how to implement them.

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Old
07-16-2008, 08:48 PM
  #9
Kyle McMahon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
My top 15 is pretty much a lock

1. gretzky
2. orr
3. howe
4. lemieux
5. shore
6. bobby hull
7. harvey
8. bourque
9. beliveau
10. rocket
11. hasek
12.roy
13. plante
14. jagr
15. messier
I promted your list, at least in part, so I'll respond. It's defensible. You're in the minority with Jagr at 14, but I expected you to have him high. You're in a very slim minority with the Rocket at 10, but you can at least formulate arguments for those you've listed above him. I think Roy at 12 is a reach, but we had him within our top 20, and goalies are tougher to judge.

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Old
07-16-2008, 09:15 PM
  #10
seventieslord
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I feel the same way about Ushy as the rest of you... but his list isn't bad at all....so far. I wouldn't have Jagr 14th, but I would have him a lot closer to 14th than where he ended up. And I can definitely see the arguments for Beliveau and Hull being ahead of The Rocket at forward. Hull we all already agreed on, and Beliveau may have ended up higher than him too, if not for a smear campaign by pappy (and I use the term "smear campaign" very loosely)

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07-16-2008, 09:41 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I feel the same way about Ushy as the rest of you... but his list isn't bad at all....so far. I wouldn't have Jagr 14th, but I would have him a lot closer to 14th than where he ended up. And I can definitely see the arguments for Beliveau and Hull being ahead of The Rocket at forward. Hull we all already agreed on, and Beliveau may have ended up higher than him too, if not for a smear campaign by pappy (and I use the term "smear campaign" very loosely)
I would like to see his top 50 just because of the disdain he has shown towards tons of those in the top 50.

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Old
07-16-2008, 09:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thornton_19 View Post
I would like to see his top 50 just because of the disdain he has shown towards tons of those in the top 50.
We all know the guy is just going to copy the master list we created and shuffle a couple of names.

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07-16-2008, 10:41 PM
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For the record, 3 of the 26 accepted lists that were submitted listed Jagr in the Top 15.

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Old
07-17-2008, 12:04 AM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thornton_19 View Post
You are probably one of 3 members of this forum that would throw Jagr in the top 15, but you know that already.


I have to question your criteria as well. Messier for instance. You said this about Yzerman in a recent post.


Yet Messier just about falls into the exact same category.
I responded with:


Further throw in the fact that Yzerman was better defensively(Messier was solid, but never a Selke Candidate), Yzerman was roughly an equal leader, and as I said, in his prime, played with Bums.

Not that I disagree that Messier was better. I ranked Messier higher than Yzerman too, and in the top 20. I just question how you differentiate the criteria since you harped on Yzerman's scoring record when Messier has a nearly identical scoring record and played on far better teams in his scoring prime.

Also, you made this post about Eddie Shore and Doug Harvey recently, attempting to lessen their credentials in favor of Bourque.


Your argument was afterward debunked by several posters, but it seems you changed your mind again?

I also question your use of HHOF monitor points since a month ago, you were asking us what they were and you still seem to have a slanted view of how to implement them.
Yeah but yzerman was a selke-type defence player after bowman arrived, he was pretty one dimensional during his stint as a superstar.

Messier also has the edge over yzerman in playoff performance and physical play.

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Old
07-17-2008, 06:04 AM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Yeah but yzerman was a selke-type defence player after bowman arrived, he was pretty one dimensional during his stint as a superstar.

Messier also has the edge over yzerman in playoff performance and physical play.
Don't say that around Reds4life or Wings4life.

I had a bunch of arguments with them regarding that very things and they showed me pretty decent evidence that Yzerman(Not conclusive mind you), while not a Selke caliber backchecker before bowman, was still much better than average for high end scorers.

Yzerman started getting Selke votes in 87-88, long before Bowman's arrival in 94. Granted this was when the switch between the trophy's designation to Defensive forwards became "Two way forwards", but Messier wasn't getting more than 1 or two votes either by this point.

Yzerman was a premier Playoff performer. His stats do not reflect it as much because in the high scoring era, he played with bums and Messier played with a hall of fame cast. When Yzerman finally got a few teammates, Bowman started rolling a 4 line defensive system and leaguewide offense was dropping due to the increase in defensive systems. Yzerman has 2 Smythe Runner ups(1 of which was robbery by Vernon) to go with his 1 Smythe win.

I don't doubt Messier's playoff performance. His Conn Smythe was a joke though. Its widely considered the Smythe that was stolen from Gretzky(We are having a giant discussion on that in the other thread)
Its by no means a clear win for Messier.

His physical play was a win yes, but Yzerman beats him offensively(When you look at the teams they played for) and ties him defensively, so it really doesn't roll over. I am one of those people who removed a few points from Messier and Ted Lindsay and to a lesser extent, Bobby Clarke because of the higher "Goonery" aspect of their play. Messier's early career was littered with suspensions because his idea of making space for himself revolved around cross-checking or butt ending people in the face with his stick when the refs were not looking.

Again, keeping in mind that I rated Messier higher. I am talking from the angle of trying to decipher where you are giving him this huge edge when you question Yzerman's validity as a top 40 because of his scoring. Nothing Messier is that much better than Yzerman to the degree that gives him a 25 spot edge over Yzerman

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07-17-2008, 06:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I feel the same way about Ushy as the rest of you... but his list isn't bad at all....so far. I wouldn't have Jagr 14th, but I would have him a lot closer to 14th than where he ended up. And I can definitely see the arguments for Beliveau and Hull being ahead of The Rocket at forward. Hull we all already agreed on, and Beliveau may have ended up higher than him too, if not for a smear campaign by pappy (and I use the term "smear campaign" very loosely)
I never "smeared" Beliveau. I like him & agree that he was great. Just think Hull was better (along with Shore, Harvey, & the Rocket) & provided my arguments. If my arguments swayed anyone that was on the fence between Hull & Beliveau, so be it. Isn't that what this is all about? I know I have been swayed by well expressed arguments several times in this process.

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07-17-2008, 09:51 AM
  #17
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Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
I never "smeared" Beliveau. I like him & agree that he was great. Just think Hull was better (along with Shore, Harvey, & the Rocket) & provided my arguments. If my arguments swayed anyone that was on the fence between Hull & Beliveau, so be it. Isn't that what this is all about? I know I have been swayed by well expressed arguments several times in this process.
Yes, it is. I do agree Hull is better, too. I wasn't sure what I thought previously, but you are responsible for convincing me Hull is better. I just remember you on more than one occasion talking about how overrated Beliveau is. It appears sometimes that you are campaigning to have people not put Beliveau on the lofty platform they currently have him on... but that's no different from what I have been saying about Brodeur all these years...

Actually, after reading all the arguments for and against Richard, I'm surprised we put him where we did. I think he was too much of a hothead and a lacklustre defensive player to end up there. He also never won a scoring title and only won one Hart. 10th sounds more appropriate to me... or 9th, if you take Bourque back a couple spots on Ushvinder's list.

It just occurred to me that I said Beliveau was "pappy smeared"... *groan*

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07-17-2008, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doctor No View Post
That was similar to my problem - I started into it, and then realized that it would take a lot of revisions before I was happy with my own list (plus it was during a big exam and a big workload time in my life). So I sat things out, but I'm enjoying the discussions immensely.
Couldn't agree more. Following this project (and contributing on the few players I believe I'm qualified for contributing on) has enhanced my knowledge of hockey in an all-time context by a lot. Big up for you people that put time and effort into this great project!

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07-17-2008, 01:27 PM
  #19
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Yes, it is. I do agree Hull is better, too. I wasn't sure what I thought previously, but you are responsible for convincing me Hull is better. I just remember you on more than one occasion talking about how overrated Beliveau is. It appears sometimes that you are campaigning to have people not put Beliveau on the lofty platform they currently have him on... but that's no different from what I have been saying about Brodeur all these years...

Actually, after reading all the arguments for and against Richard, I'm surprised we put him where we did. I think he was too much of a hothead and a lacklustre defensive player to end up there. He also never won a scoring title and only won one Hart. 10th sounds more appropriate to me... or 9th, if you take Bourque back a couple spots on Ushvinder's list.

It just occurred to me that I said Beliveau was "pappy smeared"... *groan*
I'm not usually one to talk about players I didn't see which is why I didn't participate in the list. I saw some of Beliveau's career and didn't see Richard's. But I can't help feeling that both of these guys are ranked too high. Especially Richard. It seems to me his legend has completely outshone his actual playing abilities. Top 10 just seems to high to me.

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07-17-2008, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by willus3 View Post
I'm not usually one to talk about players I didn't see which is why I didn't participate in the list. I saw some of Beliveau's career and didn't see Richard's. But I can't help feeling that both of these guys are ranked too high. Especially Richard. It seems to me his legend has completely outshone his actual playing abilities. Top 10 just seems to high to me.
Absolutely, his legend, his folk hero status, his cultural impact, have easily outshone his ability as a player.

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07-17-2008, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Absolutely, his legend, his folk hero status, his cultural impact, have easily outshone his ability as a player.
That's the problem with many of the dynasty players for any team. This list is about the best player on the ice period. All the team awards like Cups and the folk hero status some players hold I think clouds the judgement on many players. The prime example I feel is Henri Richard, who IMO is still hugely overrated on this list. I honestly think players up for voting now are equal or better than he is.

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07-17-2008, 02:01 PM
  #22
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Absolutely, his legend, his folk hero status, his cultural impact, have easily outshone his ability as a player.
Yes for sure. For example what exactly makes Richard better than say Mike Bossy?

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07-17-2008, 02:35 PM
  #23
seventieslord
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Yes for sure. For example what exactly makes Richard better than say Mike Bossy?
Personally, I think that notion is taking it a bit too far. Bossy was great in the playoffs, but Richard is a top-5 playoff performer of all-time. He was also tougher and had a ridiculous string of, I think it was 15 straight AST nominations. His array of top-10 finishes in the goals leaderboard is also more impressive than Bossy's.

Give Bossy a full career and you might see him ranked just a few spots behind Richard, by virtue of being the less physical of the two.

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07-17-2008, 02:46 PM
  #24
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my top 30:
16. Mikita
17. Hall
18. Esposito
19. Sawchuck
20. Lafleur
21. Clarke
22. Lidstrom
23. Potvin
24. Kelly
25. Lindsay
26. Bossy
27. Broduer
28. Sakic
29. Trottier
30. Morenz

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07-17-2008, 03:15 PM
  #25
seventieslord
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I think we put Morenz too high.... but 30th??

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