HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Round 2, Vote 18

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
07-20-2008, 03:21 AM
  #51
ushvinder
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,465
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcinroc View Post
Here are the raw unadjusted totals:

With Gretzky 119 GP 66 G 91 A 157 Pts .555 G/GP .785 A/GP 1.319 Pts/GP

Without Gretzky 117 GP 43 G 95 A 138 Pts .368 .812 1.179

Messier was 19-27 years old with Gretzky, 27-36 without. Missed the playoffs after the age of 36.
Exactly, hes got 138 points without gretz, hes simply a god.

ushvinder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2008, 03:25 AM
  #52
dcinroc
 
dcinroc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Taipei, Taiwan
Country: United States
Posts: 515
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Exactly, hes got 138 points without gretz, hes simply a god.
Well, can't really say that just based on these raw numbers.

Have to consider other factors, such as his point rankings on the teams he played for, his consistency and how he played relative to his teammates against better/weaker opponets.

From raw numbers, one could easily argue that Brian Leetch was more valuable to the Rangers in the playoffs than Mark Messier when they were playing together.

Messier 70 GP 29 G 51 A 80 Pts

Leetch 72 GP 24 G 56 A 80 Pts

In any case, it's obvious that Messier was a very productive playoff performer.


Last edited by dcinroc: 07-20-2008 at 03:34 AM.
dcinroc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2008, 09:57 AM
  #53
Howe Elbows 9
Registered User
 
Howe Elbows 9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Gävle, Sweden
Posts: 2,588
vCash: 50
All-star teams
Name Position 1st AST 2nd AST 1st AST span 2nd AST span
Yvan Cournoyer RW 0 4 1969-1973
Alex Delvecchio C 0 2 1953-1959
Tony Esposito G 3 2 1970-1980 1973-1974
Grant Fuhr G 1 1 1988 1982
Bob Gainey LW 0 0
Brian Leetch D 3 3 1989-1997 1991-1996
Eric Lindros C 1 1 1995 1996
Scott Niedermayer D 3 1 2004-2007 1998
Frank Nighbor C 0 0  
Chris Pronger D 1 3 2000 1998-2007
Serge Savard D 0 1 1979
Billy Smith G 1 0 1982 
Norm Ullman C 1 1 1965 1967

League leaders:
Name Season wins Years Season SO Years Playoff SO Years
Tony Esposito 35, 38 71, 70 6, 9, 15 80, 72, 70 1, 2, 2 82*, 74**, 71
Grant Fuhr 40, 30 88, 84 4 88***  
Billy Smith 32 82 2, 1, 1 83****, 82*****, 79******
* tied with Billy Smith
** tied with Bernie Parent
*** tied with Clint Malarchuk and Glen Hanlon
**** tied with Bob Sauve
***** tied with Tony Esposito
****** tied with John Davidson and Glenn Resch

Name GP Career GAA Career SO Playoff GP Playoff career GAA Playoff career SO
Tony Esposito 886 2.92 76 99 3.07 6
Grant Fuhr 868 3.38 25 150 2.92 6
Billy Smith 680 3.17 22 132 2.73 5

Career PPG
Name PPG Rank all time
Yvan Cournoyer 0.89 103
Alex Delvecchio 0.83 147
Bob Gainey 0.43 N/A
Brian Leetch 0.85 128
Eric Lindros 1.14 16
Scott Niedermayer 0.57 N/A
Frank Nighbor 0.68 N/A
Chris Pronger 0.59 N/A
Serge Savard 0.42 N/A
Norm Ullman 0.87 118

Name Playoff PPG Rank all time
Yvan Cournoyer 0.86 67
Alex Delvecchio 0.86 69
Bob Gainey 0.40 N/A
Brian Leetch 1.02 26
Eric Lindros 1.08 16
Scott Niedermayer 0.47 245
Frank Nighbor 0.65 N/A
Chris Pronger 0.69 143
Serge Savard 0.52 226
Norm Ullman 0.78 100

Name Higher ranking in PPG/higher PPG
Yvan Cournoyer Playoffs
Alex Delvecchio Playoffs
Bob Gainey Regular season
Brian Leetch Playoffs
Eric Lindros Regular season
Scott Niedermayer Regular season
Frank Nighbor Regular season
Chris Pronger Playoffs
Serge Savard Playoffs
Norm Ullman Playoffs

Playoff GWG
Name GWG Years
Yvan Cournoyer 3, 2 1973, 1969*
Brian Leetch 4 1994**
* tied with seven other players
** tied with Mark Messier

Playoff points leaders
Name Points Years
Yvan Cournoyer 25 1973
Brian Leetch 34 1994
Eric Lindros 26 1997
Scott Niedermayer 18 2003*
Frank Nighbor 3, 4 1922, 1921
Norm Ullman 16, 15 1963**, 1966
* tied with Jamie Langenbrunner
** tied with Gordie Howe

Howe Elbows 9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2008, 10:21 AM
  #54
BM67
Registered User
 
BM67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In "The System"
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,580
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by pitseleh View Post
If it's not too much trouble, would you mind posting Messier's numbers for seasons he didn't play with Gretzky?
See the revised table.

BM67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2008, 11:59 AM
  #55
Howe Elbows 9
Registered User
 
Howe Elbows 9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Gävle, Sweden
Posts: 2,588
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by God Bless Canada View Post
Arguments against the others:

*Valeri Vasiliev: The No. 2 defenceman in Soviet history. Played the prototypical North American game, with skill, but also with toughness. Very effective in his own zone. Was the best defenceman until Fetisov came along.
Agreed.

Wait... these are arguments against him? Are you saying that you'd like to vote for him but can't find any room for him on your list?

If you keep on mentioning Ratelle, you know that I can't stay mad at you no matter which players you won't vote for...


I'm willing to concede that Smith might belong on the list ahead of Fuhr, but the difference in their results isn't too big. I'd like to include that third goalie in this statistic too...

Only considering seasons with 40+ GP, seasons where team GA is lower than average GA are bolded.

Season League Average GA CBH GA NYI GA EDM GA TE GP BS GP GF GP TE GAA BS GAA GF GAA
1969-70 221 170 63 2.17  
1970-71 244 184 57 2.27  
1971-72 239 166 48 1.77  
1972-73 256 225 56 2.51  
1973-74 249 164 247 70 46 2.04 3.07 
1974-75 274 241 221 71 58 2.74 2.78 
1975-76 273 261 68 2.97  
1976-77 266 298 69 3.45  
1977-78 264 220 64 2.63  
1978-79 280 277 214 63 40 3.27 2.87 
1979-80 281 250 69 2.97  
1980-81 307 315 260 66 41 3.75 3.28 
1981-82 321 363 250 295 52 46 48 4.52 2.97 3.31
1982-83 309 226 41 2.87 
1983-84 316 269 314 42 45 3.42 3.91
1984-85 311 298 46 3.87
1985-86 317 284 310 41 40 3.72 3.93
1986-87 294 281 284 40 44 3.52 3.44
1987-88 297 288 75 3.43
1988-89 299 306 59 3.83
1991-92 278 66 3.66
1992-93 305 58 3.30
1995-96 258 79 2.87
1996-97 239 73 3.38
1997-98 216 58 2.53

Now, if you're going to vote for someone who got playoff wins, Smith or Fuhr is your man.

If Stanley Cups as a starting goalie is your preferred measure of greatness, I'd like to remind you that Hasek wasn't able to carry the Sabres to a Cup, only to the finals.

Let's take a look at the scoring leaders and team scoring leaders when Tony 0 had his bad years, judging by GAA... HHOF members are in italics.

1976-77
Top 5 in scoring
Guy Lafleur 80 56 80 136
Marcel Dionne 80 53 69 122
Steve Shutt 80 60 45 105
Rick MacLeish 79 49 48 97
Gilbert Perreault 80 39 56 95
Tim Young 80 29 66 95

Top 5 for Chicago
Ivan Boldirev 80 24 38 62
Pit Martin 75 17 36 53
Stan Mikita 57 19 30 49
Dick Redmond 80 22 25 47
Darcy Rota 76 24 22 46

1978-79
Top 5 in scoring
Bryan Trottier 76 47 87 134
Marcel Dionne 80 59 71 130
Guy Lafleur 80 52 77 129
Mike Bossy 80 69 57 126
Bob McMillan 79 37 71 108

Top 5 for Chicago
Ivan Boldirev 66 29 35 64
Stan Mikita 65 19 36 55
Bob Murray 79 19 32 51
Ted Bulley 75 27 23 50
John Marks 80 21 24 45

1980-81
Top 5 in scoring
Wayne Gretzky 80 55 109 164
Marcel Dionne 80 58 77 135
Kent Nilsson 80 49 82 131
Mike Bossy 79 68 51 119
Dave Taylor 72 47 65 112

Top 5 for Chicago
Tom Lysiak 72 21 55 76
Denis Savard 76 28 47 75
Darryl Sutter 76 40 22 62
Reg Kerr 70 30 30 60
Bob Murray 77 13 47 60

1981-82
Top 5 in scoring
Wayne Gretzky 80 92 120 212
Mike Bossy 80 64 83 147
Peter Stastny 80 47 93 140
Dennis Maruk 80 60 76 136
Bryan Trottier 80 50 79 129

Top 5 for Chicago
Denis Savard 80 32 87 119
Doug Wilson 76 39 46 85
Tom Lysiak 71 32 50 82
Al Secord 80 44 31 75
Tim Higgins 74 20 30 50

I won't be here all week, but I'll make sure to read this thread at least one more time before sending in my list. Currently I'm thinking Vasiliev, Delvecchio, Esposito, Savard, Ullman and Leetch will be on my list, but that might change. Two people that are close to being on my list are Nighbor and Smith.

Top 6 that aren't here: Holecek, Larionov, Ratelle, Petrov, Bill Quackenbush and Tiny Thompson.


Last edited by Howe Elbows 9: 07-20-2008 at 12:24 PM. Reason: Adding my top 6 omissions...
Howe Elbows 9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2008, 12:08 PM
  #56
FissionFire
Registered User
 
FissionFire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Portland, OR
Country: United States
Posts: 10,799
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BM67 View Post
See the revised table.
Interesting to note that despite all the naysayers, even after the Gretzky trade Fedorov has the better numbers in that metric. Messier was a tremendous playoff performer but I still contend that his legend has outgrown the actual results whereas players like Kennedy and Fedorov appears to be shortchanged despite superior results against their teammates.

FissionFire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2008, 01:28 PM
  #57
BM67
Registered User
 
BM67's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In "The System"
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,580
vCash: 500
If Fedorov adds another playoff identical to the last with Washington then his ratios will drop behind Messier's ATG numbers.

BM67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2008, 03:53 PM
  #58
Howe Elbows 9
Registered User
 
Howe Elbows 9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Gävle, Sweden
Posts: 2,588
vCash: 50
About two weeks ago TheDevilMadeMe posted an interesting comparison of the dominant teams of the 90s and early 00s. I'd like to try the same thing for the goalies we are now discussing, even though only two of them had their peaks around the same time. It's obvious that the 'Hawks weren't dominant during Tony 0's time (he had two trips to the finals while Bobby Hull was there), so keep that in mind.

Black Hawks (finals in 1970 and 1973)
5. Hull (on the list mostly for achievements not related to 1969-72)
14. Mikita

Islanders (Cup 1980, 1981, 1982, 1983, finals in 1984)
17. Potvin
27. Bossy
28. Trottier (also won two Cups with the Penguins)

Oilers (Cup 1984, 1985, 1987, 1988, 1990, finals in 1983)
1. Gretzky
24. Messier (also won a Cup with the Rangers)
T-46. Coffey (also won a Cup with the Penguins)
63. Kurri

While I'm at it, I'll overanalyze these people's placements on our list by calculating Top 100 points. 100 - placement on top 100 list = player points.

Black Hawks: 95 + 86 = 181
Islanders: 83 + 73 + 72 = 228
Oilers: 99 + 76 + 54 + 37 = 266

Howe Elbows 9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2008, 10:26 PM
  #59
ushvinder
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,465
vCash: 500
Alot of people are talking about Billy Smith as a top 100 player. I'm going to compare him to Tomcat.

Barrasso's vezina trophy voting:
VEZINA TROPHY BALLOTING:
PTS 1st 2nd 3rd RANK SHARE
1983-84 42 4 6 4 1 0.40
1984-85 58 7 6 5 2 0.55
1985-86 1 0 0 1 9 0.01
1987-88 22 2 3 3 2 0.21
1988-89 3 0 1 0 7 0.03
1992-93 70 7 10 5 2 0.58
1997-98 26 0 7 5 3 0.20

ALL-STAR TEAM BALLOTING (1983-84 to PRESENT):
PTS 1st 2nd 3rd RANK SHARE
1983-84 141 1 0.45
1984-85 190 20 28 6 2 0.64
1985-86 6 0 1 3 8 0.02
1987-88 60 1 15 10 3 0.19
1992-93 151 20 14 9 2 0.60
1997-98 15 0 1 12 4 0.06

Billy Smith from 84 and onwards, dont have the stats before that, but he only has 1 all star team selection anyways.

VEZINA TROPHY BALLOTING (1983-84 to PRESENT):
PTS 1st 2nd 3rd RANK SHARE
1983-84 5 1 0 0 7 0.05
ALL-STAR TEAM BALLOTING (1983-84 to PRESENT):
PTS 1st 2nd 3rd RANK SHARE
1983-84 3 13 0.01

Boy, isnt that funny. As soon as the dynasty ends, he falls off the map. Perhaps he's a bit overrated. According to these stats, Barrasso was a top 3 nhl goaltender 5 times during his career and people want to convince me that he doesn't belong in the hall of fame, lol.

ushvinder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-20-2008, 11:35 PM
  #60
dcinroc
 
dcinroc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Taipei, Taiwan
Country: United States
Posts: 515
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Alot of people are talking about Billy Smith as a top 100 player. I'm going to compare him to Tomcat.

Barrasso's vezina trophy voting:
VEZINA TROPHY BALLOTING:
PTS 1st 2nd 3rd RANK SHARE
1983-84 42 4 6 4 1 0.40
1984-85 58 7 6 5 2 0.55
1985-86 1 0 0 1 9 0.01
1987-88 22 2 3 3 2 0.21
1988-89 3 0 1 0 7 0.03
1992-93 70 7 10 5 2 0.58
1997-98 26 0 7 5 3 0.20

ALL-STAR TEAM BALLOTING (1983-84 to PRESENT):
PTS 1st 2nd 3rd RANK SHARE
1983-84 141 1 0.45
1984-85 190 20 28 6 2 0.64
1985-86 6 0 1 3 8 0.02
1987-88 60 1 15 10 3 0.19
1992-93 151 20 14 9 2 0.60
1997-98 15 0 1 12 4 0.06

Billy Smith from 84 and onwards, dont have the stats before that, but he only has 1 all star team selection anyways.

VEZINA TROPHY BALLOTING (1983-84 to PRESENT):
PTS 1st 2nd 3rd RANK SHARE
1983-84 5 1 0 0 7 0.05
ALL-STAR TEAM BALLOTING (1983-84 to PRESENT):
PTS 1st 2nd 3rd RANK SHARE
1983-84 3 13 0.01

Boy, isnt that funny. As soon as the dynasty ends, he falls off the map. Perhaps he's a bit overrated. According to these stats, Barrasso was a top 3 nhl goaltender 5 times during his career and people want to convince me that he doesn't belong in the hall of fame, lol.
Billy Smith was 34 years old when the Islander's Cup run ended. He is 15 years older than Barrasso, so it's not really a fair comparison considering that Smith's best years, statistically, were from 1974 to 1983.

Furthermore, I think most people agree that Smith would have no chance to qualify for Top-100 based on regular season alone. It is his fantastic playoff performance that may put him over the top.

dcinroc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-21-2008, 12:02 AM
  #61
ushvinder
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,465
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcinroc View Post
Billy Smith was 34 years old when the Islander's Cup run ended. He is 15 years older than Barrasso, so it's not really a fair comparison considering that Smith's best years, statistically, were from 1974 to 1983.

Furthermore, I think most people agree that Smith would have no chance to qualify for Top-100 based on regular season alone. It is his fantastic playoff performance that may put him over the top.
These stats still prove Tomcat was top 3 for 5 years, i dont think billy smith was, he only has 1 all star team selection, which is poor.

ushvinder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-21-2008, 12:18 AM
  #62
Hockey Outsider
Registered User
 
Hockey Outsider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,410
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Billy Smith from 84 and onwards, dont have the stats before that, but he only has 1 all star team selection anyways.

VEZINA TROPHY BALLOTING (1983-84 to PRESENT):
PTS 1st 2nd 3rd RANK SHARE
1983-84 5 1 0 0 7 0.05
The Vezina trophy was a statistical trophy (the equivalent of today's Jennings trophy) prior to 1980-81. Here are Smith's rankings from 1981 onwards:

81: not available
82: Vezina trophy winner
83: 4th place in voting
84: 7th place

With that said, Smith probably has the weakest regular season resume of any player on this list.

Hockey Outsider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-21-2008, 12:58 AM
  #63
ushvinder
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,465
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider View Post
The Vezina trophy was a statistical trophy (the equivalent of today's Jennings trophy) prior to 1980-81. Here are Smith's rankings from 1981 onwards:

81: not available
82: Vezina trophy winner
83: 4th place in voting
84: 7th place

With that said, Smith probably has the weakest regular season resume of any player on this list.
Mike Luit played in the same era as Billy too and his regular season resume is better too. Sometimes I feel bad for mikey, he was always on god aweful teams, this guy would probably be a hall of famer if he was on a good team. His regular season career is actually impressive, this guy was top 3-5 many times outside his mega season.

ushvinder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-21-2008, 04:26 AM
  #64
Howe Elbows 9
Registered User
 
Howe Elbows 9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Gävle, Sweden
Posts: 2,588
vCash: 50
Wins and Shots Against in the playoffs.

Year 1st in W 2nd in W 3rd in W 1st in SA 2nd in SA 3rd in SA
1980 Billy Smith Pete Peeters Bob Sauve   
1981 Billy Smith Gilles Meloche Steve Baker   
1982 Billy Smith Richard Brodeur Mike Moffat   
1983 Billy Smith Andy Moog Pete Peeters   
1984 Billy Smith Grant Fuhr Steve Penney Billy Smith Grant Fuhr Don Beaupre
1985 Grant Fuhr Pelle Lindbergh T3-Murray Bannerman, Mario Gosselin Murray Bannerman Grant Fuhr Pelle Lindbergh
1986 Patrick Roy Mike Vernon John Vanbiesbrouck Mike Vernon Patrick Roy John Vanbiesbrouck
1987 Ron Hextall Grant Fuhr T3-Ken Wregget, Mario Gosselin, Kelly Hrudey Ron Hextall Grant Fuhr Kelly Hrudey
1988 Grant Fuhr Reggie Lemelin Sean Burke Sean Burke Grant Fuhr Reggie Lemelin
1989 Mike Vernon Patrick Roy Alain Chevrier Mike Vernon Patrick Roy Alain Chevrier
1990 Bill Ranford Andy Moog Greg Millen Bill Ranford Andy Moog Greg Millen
1991 Jon Casey Tom Barrasso Andy Moog Tom Barrasso Jon Casey Andy Moog
1992 Tom Barrasso Ed Belfour T3-Bill Ranford, Andy Moog Tom Barrasso Bill Ranford Ed Belfour

During the Isles championship years, 1981 was the only time Billy Smith wasn't in the top three in Goals Against.

Am I the only one who finds Ranford's performance in 1990 really interesting? Six of the top 10 in points on the team were the same players in 1988 as in 1990, he took on the challenge of being a starter and won himself a Conn Smythe.

Howe Elbows 9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-21-2008, 07:25 AM
  #65
Der Kaiser
Registered User
 
Der Kaiser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Gothenburg, SWE
Country: Sweden
Posts: 800
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shlomo View Post
Wins and Shots Against in the playoffs.

Year 1st in W 2nd in W 3rd in W 1st in SA 2nd in SA 3rd in SA
1980 Billy Smith Pete Peeters Bob Sauve   
1981 Billy Smith Gilles Meloche Steve Baker   
1982 Billy Smith Richard Brodeur Mike Moffat   
1983 Billy Smith Andy Moog Pete Peeters   
1984 Billy Smith Grant Fuhr Steve Penney Billy Smith Grant Fuhr Don Beaupre
1985 Grant Fuhr Pelle Lindbergh T3-Murray Bannerman, Mario Gosselin Murray Bannerman Grant Fuhr Pelle Lindbergh
1986 Patrick Roy Mike Vernon John Vanbiesbrouck Mike Vernon Patrick Roy John Vanbiesbrouck
1987 Ron Hextall Grant Fuhr T3-Ken Wregget, Mario Gosselin, Kelly Hrudey Ron Hextall Grant Fuhr Kelly Hrudey
1988 Grant Fuhr Reggie Lemelin Sean Burke Sean Burke Grant Fuhr Reggie Lemelin
1989 Mike Vernon Patrick Roy Alain Chevrier Mike Vernon Patrick Roy Alain Chevrier
1990 Bill Ranford Andy Moog Greg Millen Bill Ranford Andy Moog Greg Millen
1991 Jon Casey Tom Barrasso Andy Moog Tom Barrasso Jon Casey Andy Moog
1992 Tom Barrasso Ed Belfour T3-Bill Ranford, Andy Moog Tom Barrasso Bill Ranford Ed Belfour

During the Isles championship years, 1981 was the only time Billy Smith wasn't in the top three in Goals Against.

Am I the only one who finds Ranford's performance in 1990 really interesting? Six of the top 10 in points on the team were the same players in 1988 as in 1990, he took on the challenge of being a starter and won himself a Conn Smythe.
I haven't put any research into this but it would seem logical that the goaltenders that also play the most amount of games would be the ones to have the highest GA. It would make more sense to measure GAA.

Der Kaiser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-21-2008, 09:20 AM
  #66
Howe Elbows 9
Registered User
 
Howe Elbows 9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Gävle, Sweden
Posts: 2,588
vCash: 50
I think I might have done just that in the past, but here I go again...

Year 1st in W 2nd in W 3rd in W 1st in GAA 2nd in GAA 3rd in GAA 4th in GAA 5th in GAA
1980 Billy Smith Pete Peeters Bob Sauve Bob Sauve Michel Larocque Tony Esposito John Davidson Phil Myre
1981 Billy Smith Gilles Meloche Steve Baker Billy Smith Rick St. Croix Don Edwards Greg Millen Gilles Meloche
1982 Billy Smith Richard Brodeur Mike Moffat Rick Wamsley Billy Smith Tony Esposito Richard Brodeur Mike Liut
1983 Billy Smith Andy Moog Pete Peeters Roland Melanson Billy Smith Andy Moog Bob Sauve Gilles Meloche
1984 Billy Smith Grant Fuhr Steve Penney Steve Penney Pat Riggin Mike Liut Glen Hanlon Billy Smith
1985 Grant Fuhr Pelle Lindbergh T3-Murray Bannerman, Mario Gosselin Kelly Hrudey Pelle Lindbergh Mario Gosselin Grant Fuhr Steve Penney
1986 Patrick Roy Mike Vernon John Vanbiesbrouck Mike Liut Patrick Roy Pete Peeters Mike Vernon Greg Millen
1987 Ron Hextall Grant Fuhr T3-Ken Wregget, Mario Gosselin, Kelly Hrudey Glen Hanlon Ken Wregget Grant Fuhr Kelly Hrudey Brian Hayward
1988 Grant Fuhr Reggie Lemelin Sean Burke Reggie Lemelin Grant Fuhr Glen Hanlon Pete Peeters Bob Sauve
1989 Mike Vernon Patrick Roy Alain Chevrier Patrick Roy Ken Wregget Mike Vernon Andy Moog Alain Chevrier
1990 Bill Ranford Andy Moog Greg Millen Andy Moog Daren Puppa Patrick Roy Ed Belfour Bill Ranford
1991 Jon Casey Tom Barrasso Andy Moog Tom Barrasso Mike Richter Kelly Hrudey Don Beaupre Chris Terreri
1992 Tom Barrasso Ed Belfour T3-Bill Ranford, Andy Moog Ed Belfour Tim Chevaldae Kirk McLean Patrick Roy Tom Draper

Top 3 rankings by playoff GAA, 1980-1992:
Billy Smith - 3
Patrick Roy - 3
Tony Esposito - 2
Grant Fuhr - 2
Andy Moog - 2
Mike Liut - 2
Kelly Hrudey - 2
Glen Hanlon - 2
Ken Wregget - 2

Of these goalies, Smith, Roy, Esposito and Fuhr have won Vezina Trophies, and Tony Esposito is the only one of them to win it pre-1982.

How about removing the William M. Jennings Trophy winners from 1982 to 1992 from that list - in the hope of being able to separate really good performances from goalies on really good defensive teams. The names that remain are:
Tony Esposito (Chicago)
Grant Fuhr (Edmonton)
Mike Liut (St. Louis, Hartford)
Kelly Hrudey (NYI, Los Angeles)
Glen Hanlon (Detroit)
Ken Wregget (Toronto, Philadelphia)

Howe Elbows 9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-21-2008, 01:16 PM
  #67
Hockey Outsider
Registered User
 
Hockey Outsider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,410
vCash: 500
To quote myself from another thread:

"In the playoffs from '75 to '79, [Tony Esposito] had at one point a 16 game losing streak... he had basically no support from his offense. In the losses his team scored:

0 goals - 3
1 goal - 7
2 goals - 4
3 goals - 2
4+ goals - 0

Esposito had no chance of winning unless he posted shutouts in 10 of 16 games. So, looking at the numbers, it looks like Esposito was doomed for four years, regardless of how well or poorly he played."

I'm certainly not saying that Esposito was as good a playoff performer as Fuhr or Smith. But I wonder how Espo would have done had his teammates scored 4-5 goals in each playoff game he started.

Hockey Outsider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-21-2008, 06:21 PM
  #68
MXD
Registered User
 
MXD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 22,485
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shlomo View Post
Top 3 rankings by playoff GAA, 1980-1992:
Billy Smith - 3
Patrick Roy - 3
Tony Esposito - 2
Grant Fuhr - 2
Andy Moog - 2
Mike Liut - 2
Kelly Hrudey - 2
Glen Hanlon - 2
Ken Wregget - 2

Of these goalies, Smith, Roy, Esposito and Fuhr have won Vezina Trophies, and Tony Esposito is the only one of them to win it pre-1982.

How about removing the William M. Jennings Trophy winners from 1982 to 1992 from that list - in the hope of being able to separate really good performances from goalies on really good defensive teams. The names that remain are:
Tony Esposito (Chicago)
Grant Fuhr (Edmonton)
Mike Liut (St. Louis, Hartford)
Kelly Hrudey (NYI, Los Angeles)
Glen Hanlon (Detroit)
Ken Wregget (Toronto, Philadelphia)
Hummm... Man, having witnessed both Wregget and Roy, and I think one goes in this category (Roy) and the other really DOESN'T belong at all (Wregget), especially considering Philly had a great defense (doesn't exactly equals to Jennings, but can lead to Bob Froese have an absolute, unrepeated career year).

Now, TO's defense was absolutely dreadful in 87, but they were actually playing the 15th or 16th offensive team that year : mind you, even the LEAFS were a better offensive team than the Blues, which says a lot... That didn't manage to score more goals while playing in what was, arguably, the worst division in NHL history (and while we're at it, the worst YEAR for that division in a 10 or so year stretch).

MXD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-21-2008, 09:48 PM
  #69
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 25,178
vCash: 500
the analysis I've done with THC's playoff goaltending numbers hint towards Ken Wregget being the best playoff goaltender of all-time. Now, before you discredit the entire study because his name tops the list, you should know that the other names dotting the top-15 (among goalies with 3000+ playoff minutes) are Roy, Hasek, Parent, Bower, Beezer, Belfour, Smith, Joseph, and a couple others I currently can't remember off the top of my head - I'd look but I'm working on an age adjustment formula and can't resort my sheet until I do new goalie-by-goalie totals.

Smith absolutely belongs here. His regular season record is the weakest of any playe who we've considered. But that stems mostly from number of games played - it wasn't just him, or his team - it was normal for goalies to be platooned at the time so I don't hold it against him too much - besides, he was great in the games he did play. In the playoffs, though, he has averaged .019 above the league average save percentage throughout his career.... including the years before and after the dynasty. .905 to .886. And that's an average! In a good year he may have been 35 points over the average and perhaps a bad year he was just average, but it washed out to a 19 point gap over his 18-year career... that is phenomenal. And those Isles, as good as they were, allowed a fair amount of shots. He deserves his due on this list.

seventieslord is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-21-2008, 10:42 PM
  #70
MXD
Registered User
 
MXD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 22,485
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
the analysis I've done with THC's playoff goaltending numbers hint towards Ken Wregget being the best playoff goaltender of all-time. Now, before you discredit the entire study because his name tops the list, you should know that the other names dotting the top-15 (among goalies with 3000+ playoff minutes) are Roy, Hasek, Parent, Bower, Beezer, Belfour, Smith, Joseph, and a couple others I currently can't remember off the top of my head - I'd look but I'm working on an age adjustment formula and can't resort my sheet until I do new goalie-by-goalie totals.

Smith absolutely belongs here. His regular season record is the weakest of any playe who we've considered. But that stems mostly from number of games played - it wasn't just him, or his team - it was normal for goalies to be platooned at the time so I don't hold it against him too much - besides, he was great in the games he did play. In the playoffs, though, he has averaged .019 above the league average save percentage throughout his career.... including the years before and after the dynasty. .905 to .886. And that's an average! In a good year he may have been 35 points over the average and perhaps a bad year he was just average, but it washed out to a 19 point gap over his 18-year career... that is phenomenal. And those Isles, as good as they were, allowed a fair amount of shots. He deserves his due on this list.
That's the problem when doing such a list (and it's not a blame or whatever...), is that, sometimes the small details gets lost. I never said Wregget wasn't a good playoff goalie (in fact, he was)... I just think that mentionning his name while making total abstraction of the background (like the To/STL example - when both teams were equally dreadful and all the conclusion that can be infered from this is that Wregget outplayed Millen).

But hey, the whole list has been built on such kind of speculation.

As for Wregget, well, his 87 season was great, but for most of all his other playoffs.... well, he was a backup. For the man himself, I think he's like the 3rd best goalie whose last name starts by W. Considering the 4h is either a guy named Weeks and... another guy named Weeks, I'm not saying much.

MXD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-21-2008, 10:47 PM
  #71
MXD
Registered User
 
MXD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 22,485
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post

Smith absolutely belongs here. His regular season record is the weakest of any playe who we've considered. But that stems mostly from number of games played - it wasn't just him, or his team - it was normal for goalies to be platooned at the time so I don't hold it against him too much - besides, he was great in the games he did play. In the playoffs, though, he has averaged .019 above the league average save percentage throughout his career.... including the years before and after the dynasty. .905 to .886. And that's an average! In a good year he may have been 35 points over the average and perhaps a bad year he was just average, but it washed out to a 19 point gap over his 18-year career... that is phenomenal. And those Isles, as good as they were, allowed a fair amount of shots. He deserves his due on this list.
I definitely won't be including Billy Smith in my list, even though I do consider him superior to Fuhr (or Cheevers, for that matter). This said, I could have taken the same argument for Marty Barry, tweak a few things, and add it to my ADD MARTY BARRY rant.

MXD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2008, 12:30 AM
  #72
overpass
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,627
vCash: 500
A Case for Eric Lindros

I haven't seen much discussion of Lindros here. I strongly believe that he belongs in the top 100 players of all-time, and I'll lay out my case here.

I've seen some comments through this process that Lindros was a might-have-been - that he could have belonged in this list, but injuries did him in. There's no doubt that injuries prevented Lindros from accomplishing much more, but let's not forget what he actually did on the ice. He may have missed his potential as a top-10 player due to injuries, but he's still fully deserving of a spot in the top 100.

The case for Lindros will hinge to a certain degree on your rating philosophy: Do you prefer to rank the player (more peak oriented) or the career (sum total of accomplishments?) I like to think of it this way:

Personally, I prefer to rank the top 100 players, and therefore I rank Lindros very highly. He sustained a very high level of play over the decade from 1993-2002, and especially from 1995-2000. IMO, if you went to a hockey game between 1993 and 2002 and saw Eric Lindros play, there is a very good chance that he was the best player on the ice.

Career and accomplishment-focused voters may downgrade Lindros for his poor in-season durability, which caused him to amass fewer league leading totals, awards, and all-star selections than one would have expected a player of his talent to win. However, I hope even career-focused voters will look at Lindros's high level of play when on the ice and vote accordingly.

In my earlier post in this thread on adjusted +/- numbers for players in this round, Lindros had the best numbers of any player from 1968 to the present who was available to vote. Not only did he have the best numbers from this group, but he had the 7th best single season from 1968 to present by +/- (his Hart season in 1995), the 9th best 3-year peak, the 7th best 7-year prime, and the 12th best career (by value above average.)

In the adjusted +/- numbers, the following players are clearly ahead of Lindros: Orr, Gretzky, Bourque, Jagr, Lemieux, Dionne. Lindros is in the next tier with Clarke, Trottier, Bossy, Lafleur, Robinson, Mark Howe, and Salming.

Here are some more numbers that illustrate Lindros's dominance when on the ice.

Even Strength Scoring
YR TM PLAYER ESP/G RANK
1993 PHI LINDROS, ERIC 0.92 10
1994 PHI LINDROS, ERIC 1.03 1
1995 PHI LINDROS, ERIC 1.00 1
1996 PHI LINDROS, ERIC 1.03 3
1997 PHI LINDROS, ERIC 1.08 1
1998 PHI LINDROS, ERIC 0.73 7
1999 PHI LINDROS, ERIC 0.92 2
2000 PHI LINDROS, ERIC 0.67 18
2002 NYR LINDROS, ERIC 0.79 1
2003 NYR LINDROS, ERIC 0.41 100+
2004 NYR LINDROS, ERIC 0.59 18
2006 TOR LINDROS, ERIC 0.42 100+
2007 DAL LINDROS, ERIC 0.37 100+

Lindros was a dominant even strength scorer from the moment he broke into the league, leading the league in even strength points per game at age 20 in 1994. He continued to lead the league or finish in the top 3 in even strength points per game in almost every season in the rest of the decade. After a down year in 2000 and a missed season in 2001, he still led the league in ESP/G in 2002. After that, of course, it was all downhill, but his record from 1993-2002 is very impressive. Only Lemieux (when he played) and Jagr have comparable periods of even-strength dominance post-1990.

Lindros's power play record is good, but less impressive than his even strength play. He was between 5th and 15th in power play points per game every year from 1995 to 2000, but never separated himself from the other top players the way he did at evens, and his PP record outside of these years is very average. He also rarely killed penalties.

Lindros's playoff record gets knocked, especially since he never won a Cup and was shut down in the final in 1997. However, I think he's a victim of expectations here. Lindros was, and still is in hindsight, held to the standards of a superstar. That's understandable, as he was a superstar at the time, but remember that of the forwards in this group, Lindros alone was a regular season superstar. He was the only one who was always (or even often) the go-to player on his team in the playoffs, and the focal point for the opposition to shut down. His teams also rarely had a strong second line to make the opposing team pay for focusing on him. A drop in production in the playoffs in these circumstances is understandable, given the focus other teams put on checking him, and it still leaves him as productive or more so than the other forwards in the playoffs.

Compare Lindros's status as The Man on his teams to the other forwards available now. Nighbor had Denneny. Ullman and Delvecchio were always second to Howe, and had other comparable stars for much of their careers, whether it was each other, Frank Mahovlich, or Keon. Cournoyer was never the undisputed #1 in Montreal, as Beliveau as there earlier in his career, Mahovlich in the middle, and Lafleur toward the end.

I propose that Eric Lindros was the third best forward in the league over the 1993-2002 decade, after only Lemieux and Jagr. After adding other positions, I would have him 4th, with Hasek also ahead of him. Shifting the decade back to 1995-2004 would put Forsberg ahead also, IMO, but in any case I would have Lindros as a top 5 player of the decade. That deserves a spot in the top 100 players of all-time, especially considering the influx of European talent into the league during this decade.

Apologies in advance if I don't respond to something about this, but I may not get to check back. I had to put my case forward for Lindros before the end of the project.

overpass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2008, 01:15 AM
  #73
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 41,588
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by overpass View Post
A Case for Eric Lindros

I haven't seen much discussion of Lindros here. I strongly believe that he belongs in the top 100 players of all-time, and I'll lay out my case here.

I've seen some comments through this process that Lindros was a might-have-been - that he could have belonged in this list, but injuries did him in. There's no doubt that injuries prevented Lindros from accomplishing much more, but let's not forget what he actually did on the ice. He may have missed his potential as a top-10 player due to injuries, but he's still fully deserving of a spot in the top 100.

The case for Lindros will hinge to a certain degree on your rating philosophy: Do you prefer to rank the player (more peak oriented) or the career (sum total of accomplishments?) I like to think of it this way:

Personally, I prefer to rank the top 100 players, and therefore I rank Lindros very highly. He sustained a very high level of play over the decade from 1993-2002, and especially from 1995-2000. IMO, if you went to a hockey game between 1993 and 2002 and saw Eric Lindros play, there is a very good chance that he was the best player on the ice.

Career and accomplishment-focused voters may downgrade Lindros for his poor in-season durability, which caused him to amass fewer league leading totals, awards, and all-star selections than one would have expected a player of his talent to win. However, I hope even career-focused voters will look at Lindros's high level of play when on the ice and vote accordingly.

In my earlier post in this thread on adjusted +/- numbers for players in this round, Lindros had the best numbers of any player from 1968 to the present who was available to vote. Not only did he have the best numbers from this group, but he had the 7th best single season from 1968 to present by +/- (his Hart season in 1995), the 9th best 3-year peak, the 7th best 7-year prime, and the 12th best career (by value above average.)

In the adjusted +/- numbers, the following players are clearly ahead of Lindros: Orr, Gretzky, Bourque, Jagr, Lemieux, Dionne. Lindros is in the next tier with Clarke, Trottier, Bossy, Lafleur, Robinson, Mark Howe, and Salming.

Here are some more numbers that illustrate Lindros's dominance when on the ice.

Even Strength Scoring
YR TM PLAYER ESP/G RANK
1993 PHI LINDROS, ERIC 0.92 10
1994 PHI LINDROS, ERIC 1.03 1
1995 PHI LINDROS, ERIC 1.00 1
1996 PHI LINDROS, ERIC 1.03 3
1997 PHI LINDROS, ERIC 1.08 1
1998 PHI LINDROS, ERIC 0.73 7
1999 PHI LINDROS, ERIC 0.92 2
2000 PHI LINDROS, ERIC 0.67 18
2002 NYR LINDROS, ERIC 0.79 1
2003 NYR LINDROS, ERIC 0.41 100+
2004 NYR LINDROS, ERIC 0.59 18
2006 TOR LINDROS, ERIC 0.42 100+
2007 DAL LINDROS, ERIC 0.37 100+

Lindros was a dominant even strength scorer from the moment he broke into the league, leading the league in even strength points per game at age 20 in 1994. He continued to lead the league or finish in the top 3 in even strength points per game in almost every season in the rest of the decade. After a down year in 2000 and a missed season in 2001, he still led the league in ESP/G in 2002. After that, of course, it was all downhill, but his record from 1993-2002 is very impressive. Only Lemieux (when he played) and Jagr have comparable periods of even-strength dominance post-1990.

Lindros's power play record is good, but less impressive than his even strength play. He was between 5th and 15th in power play points per game every year from 1995 to 2000, but never separated himself from the other top players the way he did at evens, and his PP record outside of these years is very average. He also rarely killed penalties.

Lindros's playoff record gets knocked, especially since he never won a Cup and was shut down in the final in 1997. However, I think he's a victim of expectations here. Lindros was, and still is in hindsight, held to the standards of a superstar. That's understandable, as he was a superstar at the time, but remember that of the forwards in this group, Lindros alone was a regular season superstar. He was the only one who was always (or even often) the go-to player on his team in the playoffs, and the focal point for the opposition to shut down. His teams also rarely had a strong second line to make the opposing team pay for focusing on him. A drop in production in the playoffs in these circumstances is understandable, given the focus other teams put on checking him, and it still leaves him as productive or more so than the other forwards in the playoffs.

Compare Lindros's status as The Man on his teams to the other forwards available now. Nighbor had Denneny. Ullman and Delvecchio were always second to Howe, and had other comparable stars for much of their careers, whether it was each other, Frank Mahovlich, or Keon. Cournoyer was never the undisputed #1 in Montreal, as Beliveau as there earlier in his career, Mahovlich in the middle, and Lafleur toward the end.

I propose that Eric Lindros was the third best forward in the league over the 1993-2002 decade, after only Lemieux and Jagr. After adding other positions, I would have him 4th, with Hasek also ahead of him. Shifting the decade back to 1995-2004 would put Forsberg ahead also, IMO, but in any case I would have Lindros as a top 5 player of the decade. That deserves a spot in the top 100 players of all-time, especially considering the influx of European talent into the league during this decade.

Apologies in advance if I don't respond to something about this, but I may not get to check back. I had to put my case forward for Lindros before the end of the project.
I would definitely put Sakic over Lindros for either time period. Fedorov too, if we are talking 1993-2002. Yzerman, depending on how much weight you put into playoff performances.

I think you are also overestimating his lack of support, as well. Brindamour was a very good second line center, who played very well in the 1997 finals when Lindros did not.

Overall, though, one of the better cases I have seen for Lindros.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2008, 03:56 AM
  #74
Howe Elbows 9
Registered User
 
Howe Elbows 9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Gävle, Sweden
Posts: 2,588
vCash: 50
I know I'm all over the map right now, but I'd thought I'd post while there's still time to do so. I'll probably send my list in tomorrow.

Top 10 NHL career points by defensemen
Player GP G A PTS PTS/G
Ray Bourque 1612 410 1169 1579 0.98
Paul Coffey 1409 396 1135 1531 1.09
Al MacInnis 1416 340 934 1274 0.90
Phil Housley 1495 338 894 1232 0.82
Larry Murphy 1615 287 929 1216 0.75
Denis Potvin 1060 310 742 1052 0.99
Brian Leetch 1205 247 781 1028 0.85
Larry Robinson 1384 208 750 958 0.69
Chris Chelios 1616 185 763 948 0.59
Nicklas Lidström 1252 212 726 938 0.75

Leetch was the leading scorer for the Rangers in 2000-01 and was tied for second place in 1998-99. Let's take a look at power play numbers:

Career PPGF
Ray Bourque 1272
Al MacInnis 1189
Wayne Gretzky 1164
Ron Francis 1152
Paul Coffey 1147
Phil Housley 1069
Larry Murphy 1032
Marcel Dionne 961
Joe Sakic 956
Brian Leetch 946
Steve Yzerman 946

Season 1st in PPGF 2nd in PPGF 3rd in PPGF 4th in PPGF 5th in PPGF
1990-91 Brian Leetch Al MacInnis T3-Paul Coffey T3-Gary Suter Wayne Gretzky
1991-92 Dave Andreychuk Dale Hawerchuk Brian Leetch Phil Housley T5-Doug Bodger, Tom Kurvers, Al MacInnis
1993-94 Brian Leetch Ray Bourque T3-Wayne Gretzky T3-Sergei Zubov Luc Robitaille
1995-96 Mario Lemieux Ron Francis Jaromir Jagr Brian Leetch Joe Sakic
1996-97 Sandis Ozolinsh Doug Weight Brian Leetch Joe Sakic Mario Lemieux
1997-98 Sergei Zubov Brian Leetch T3-Sandis Ozolinsh T3-Darryl Sydor T3-Ray Bourque
1998-99 Paul Kariya Teemu Selänne Brian Leetch Fredrik Olausson Sergei Zubov

95. Valeri Vasiliev - Three times voted best defenseman in the World Championships, won nine WC gold medals and two olympic gold medals.
96. Brian Leetch - Twice won the Norris, beat Bourque in 1992 and Konstantinov in 1997. Best All-star team record of the eligible players, and a good playoff record.
97. Norm Ullman - Eight times in the top ten in points and some impressive playoff performances.
98. Tony Esposito - third on the career GA list, after Fuhr and Meloche and ahead of Worsley, among others. Looking at career GAA from 1967-95 (with 500+ GP), only Parent, Roy and Giacomin are ahead of him.
99. Serge Savard - Helped his team win... a lot.
100. Vsevolod Bobrov - maybe not up against the best competition, but like swedish player Sven Tumba he showed skill as an athlete in other areas as well. Is this about greatest NHL careers or finding the greatest players?

I hope Nighbor and Delvecchio makes the list, even though they probably won't be on mine.

Howe Elbows 9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2008, 12:11 PM
  #75
God Bless Canada
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Bentley reunion
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,792
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by overpass View Post
A Case for Eric Lindros

I haven't seen much discussion of Lindros here. I strongly believe that he belongs in the top 100 players of all-time, and I'll lay out my case here.

I've seen some comments through this process that Lindros was a might-have-been - that he could have belonged in this list, but injuries did him in. There's no doubt that injuries prevented Lindros from accomplishing much more, but let's not forget what he actually did on the ice. He may have missed his potential as a top-10 player due to injuries, but he's still fully deserving of a spot in the top 100.

The case for Lindros will hinge to a certain degree on your rating philosophy: Do you prefer to rank the player (more peak oriented) or the career (sum total of accomplishments?) I like to think of it this way:

Personally, I prefer to rank the top 100 players, and therefore I rank Lindros very highly. He sustained a very high level of play over the decade from 1993-2002, and especially from 1995-2000. IMO, if you went to a hockey game between 1993 and 2002 and saw Eric Lindros play, there is a very good chance that he was the best player on the ice.

Career and accomplishment-focused voters may downgrade Lindros for his poor in-season durability, which caused him to amass fewer league leading totals, awards, and all-star selections than one would have expected a player of his talent to win. However, I hope even career-focused voters will look at Lindros's high level of play when on the ice and vote accordingly.

In my earlier post in this thread on adjusted +/- numbers for players in this round, Lindros had the best numbers of any player from 1968 to the present who was available to vote. Not only did he have the best numbers from this group, but he had the 7th best single season from 1968 to present by +/- (his Hart season in 1995), the 9th best 3-year peak, the 7th best 7-year prime, and the 12th best career (by value above average.)

In the adjusted +/- numbers, the following players are clearly ahead of Lindros: Orr, Gretzky, Bourque, Jagr, Lemieux, Dionne. Lindros is in the next tier with Clarke, Trottier, Bossy, Lafleur, Robinson, Mark Howe, and Salming.

Here are some more numbers that illustrate Lindros's dominance when on the ice.

Even Strength Scoring
YR TM PLAYER ESP/G RANK
1993 PHI LINDROS, ERIC 0.92 10
1994 PHI LINDROS, ERIC 1.03 1
1995 PHI LINDROS, ERIC 1.00 1
1996 PHI LINDROS, ERIC 1.03 3
1997 PHI LINDROS, ERIC 1.08 1
1998 PHI LINDROS, ERIC 0.73 7
1999 PHI LINDROS, ERIC 0.92 2
2000 PHI LINDROS, ERIC 0.67 18
2002 NYR LINDROS, ERIC 0.79 1
2003 NYR LINDROS, ERIC 0.41 100+
2004 NYR LINDROS, ERIC 0.59 18
2006 TOR LINDROS, ERIC 0.42 100+
2007 DAL LINDROS, ERIC 0.37 100+

Lindros was a dominant even strength scorer from the moment he broke into the league, leading the league in even strength points per game at age 20 in 1994. He continued to lead the league or finish in the top 3 in even strength points per game in almost every season in the rest of the decade. After a down year in 2000 and a missed season in 2001, he still led the league in ESP/G in 2002. After that, of course, it was all downhill, but his record from 1993-2002 is very impressive. Only Lemieux (when he played) and Jagr have comparable periods of even-strength dominance post-1990.

Lindros's power play record is good, but less impressive than his even strength play. He was between 5th and 15th in power play points per game every year from 1995 to 2000, but never separated himself from the other top players the way he did at evens, and his PP record outside of these years is very average. He also rarely killed penalties.

Lindros's playoff record gets knocked, especially since he never won a Cup and was shut down in the final in 1997. However, I think he's a victim of expectations here. Lindros was, and still is in hindsight, held to the standards of a superstar. That's understandable, as he was a superstar at the time, but remember that of the forwards in this group, Lindros alone was a regular season superstar. He was the only one who was always (or even often) the go-to player on his team in the playoffs, and the focal point for the opposition to shut down. His teams also rarely had a strong second line to make the opposing team pay for focusing on him. A drop in production in the playoffs in these circumstances is understandable, given the focus other teams put on checking him, and it still leaves him as productive or more so than the other forwards in the playoffs.

Compare Lindros's status as The Man on his teams to the other forwards available now. Nighbor had Denneny. Ullman and Delvecchio were always second to Howe, and had other comparable stars for much of their careers, whether it was each other, Frank Mahovlich, or Keon. Cournoyer was never the undisputed #1 in Montreal, as Beliveau as there earlier in his career, Mahovlich in the middle, and Lafleur toward the end.

I propose that Eric Lindros was the third best forward in the league over the 1993-2002 decade, after only Lemieux and Jagr. After adding other positions, I would have him 4th, with Hasek also ahead of him. Shifting the decade back to 1995-2004 would put Forsberg ahead also, IMO, but in any case I would have Lindros as a top 5 player of the decade. That deserves a spot in the top 100 players of all-time, especially considering the influx of European talent into the league during this decade.

Apologies in advance if I don't respond to something about this, but I may not get to check back. I had to put my case forward for Lindros before the end of the project.
He wasn't even close to top three for 1993-2002. Maybe for 1995 to 1999, but that's it.

In 1992-93 and 1993-94, he was good to really good, when healthy, but not a top 10 or top 20 player in the league. (Wasn't even good enough to be one of the top three rookies in 1992-93).

He was consistently one of the top five or 10 players in the league from 1995 to 1998-99. (With the exception of 1997-98). He won the Hart in 1995. He was a second-team all-star in 1995-96. (In maybe the best year for centres since 1992-93). He was dominant in 1996-97 after missing the start of the year due to injury, and led the playoffs in scoring. And he was playing what many believe to be the best hockey of his life in 1998-99 until he went down with a collapsed lung. (That, right there, was the real turning point in his career, not the concussions. He was never the same after the lung injury).

The numbers looked good for 1999-2000, but his playing wasn't good. At one point in the season, he apologized to his teammates for his performance. Then the concussions hit.

He sat out 2000-01. He returned in 2001-02, and he was good, but not the same, dominant Eric. Then the wheels fell off.

I've long maintained that the lung injury in 1999 was the turning point for the Big E. His relationship with Bobby Clarke wasn't always negative. When Clarke took the Flyers GM job in 1994, THN referred to Clarke as Lindros' No. 1 fan. Their relationship started to sour after Lindros' underwhelming performance as Canada's captain at the 1998 Olys. It's not that Lindros played poorly, it's just that expectations were so high for the Big E, and he didn't deliver. Then the collapsed lung of 1999 occurred. And things became really messy. The Flyers wanted Lindros to fly home the night the injury occurred. Lindros didn't. If he did, the injury could have been fatal. Needless to say, Camp Lindros was not happy. Remember when I said that Lindros apologized to his teammates for his play in 1999-2000? Well, it was because he said he was allowing his strained relationship with Clarke to affect his play.

There's a lot to like about Lindros. But there's so much to dislike. Simply put, he has more negatives - far more negatives - than any other player we have considered to this point. And you have to consider the whole body of work. You can't just look at 1995 to 1999 and ignore the rest of his career. You have to take the good with the bad. Nobody in the top 100, maybe even the top 200, has more negatives associated with his name than Eric Lindros.

God Bless Canada is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:15 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2015 All Rights Reserved.