HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > New York Rangers
Notices

Slats' Head-scratching Summer

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
07-22-2008, 01:11 PM
  #76
DontStepanMe
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Queens, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 5,376
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BklyNYR4Life View Post
how are we juggling the lineup to fit gomez and drury?
now we have to go and get wingers who fit their style instead of Jagr's style. its the same situation just based around 2 people instead of 1. We had to completely change the team in the last two years to fit them, especially this offseason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BklyNYR4Life View Post
jagr a threat every time he was on the ice?
#1 scoring Eurpean of all time. Still one of the best players in the game. Do you even watch hockey or are you just being silly? Every time Jagr was on the ice he could score, or set somebody up. That is why teams built gameplans around stopping him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BklyNYR4Life View Post
since when did juggling the puck by the backboards and losing it, or waiting for a one timer that everyone knew was coming, and breaking a stick qualify as a threat? sure drury and gomez are overpaid, but it would be an even further mistake to keep back aging players, who clearly dont work with the new centerpieces of the club, than building around them.
you just answered your first question right there. We are now juggling the lineup, and our team around Drury and Gomez. Same situation as basing a team around Jagr. I am not why this is so hard a concept to understand.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BklyNYR4Life View Post
we got younger, faster, and more balanced than last season. it's a difficult thing watching a team do a major overhaul, and witness the end of an error, but i really dont see what you (or anyone else) should be overly concerned with...besides voros, rissmiller, and the length of redden's deal, which are my ?'s of the summer.
we also got worse last year. and now who knows what next season will bring. It looks like we will be even worse than last year.

DontStepanMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2008, 01:13 PM
  #77
Fletch
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Brooklyn
Posts: 20,919
vCash: 500
bklyn...

the entire lineup was juggled to appease one player? You mean this had nothing to do with Renney trying to find the best combination to produce desired results? You mean it had nothing to do with trying to get a guy like Straka going? Or Shanny? Or even Drury, who started the season playing well and floundered in the middle? HEck, did it have anything to do with trying to advance Dubi's game at all? Nah, it was all about Jagr, the evil winger who scored 125 points in one season and 96 in another and took whoever played with him as his linemate. He played with Brad Isbister and didn't complain. That's your prima dona who had to have lines juggled to appease him? He played 15 games at the beginning of last season with Hossa, who had nothing, and who didn't help Jagr at all as Jagr set him up time after time. And he played with a rookie in Dubi - did he complain? Nah. And again, it wasn't all about Jagr, it was about the entire team. Having Gomez on a second line and Drury on a third line should've been an advantage for the Rangers.

EDIT: ask other teams who they keyed on offensively when playing against the Rangers. I'm guessing they'd say Jagr. I'm guessing they'd say that's because he was a threat every time he was on the ice. The opinions of us in this forum are sometimes different from the guys who actually have to go out and play against guys like Jagr. I'm pretty sure they were saying that stopping Jagr gave the Rangers the best chance of winning. At least now they don't know who to stop.

Fletch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2008, 01:13 PM
  #78
DontStepanMe
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Queens, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 5,376
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
Now, in July? Think about that for a second.
we paid for it last year, and we are still paying for it. A team w/ Nylander, Jagr and one of Gomez and Drury is still better than a team w/ Drury, Gomez and Zherdov. In fact its not even close.

DontStepanMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2008, 01:16 PM
  #79
NYR Viper
Moderator
 
NYR Viper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: PA
Country: United States
Posts: 27,961
vCash: 500
Rags:

i see what you are saying, however the one thing i disagree with is that the zherdev would not have been needed if jagr was resigned....there still would have been a need for a top-6 winger and when a player with his potential comes up in a trade for a player who is under-performing the trade must be done....i liked tyutin, but zherdev has a much bigger impact on games and is younger.....also backman was also traded which allows the rangers to gain some cap room.......

i think that you wanted was to keep nylander?....how do you know sundin would have worked with jagr?....how do you know that he wouldve stayed healthy?......how do you know they both would have fit under the cap?....

given the option of sundin(at 38) + jagr at (37) or gomez(at 28) + drury(at 31) to build a young team around, i choose the second option....realistically the rangers are a good team next year with the first IF they can stay healthy but how much pressure do you want to put on two players well past their prime?.....what happens if sundin all of a sudden has a shanny-like drop-off?....or sundin hurts his hip and needs surgery?.....they also play a totally different style than all of the younger players the rangers have been drafting, so you want p0layers to come up and play that style and learn that style(a new style) while trying to adjust to the nhl?......again, i dont understand how people dont remember what happens when teams are built around older players....they are good for a while but lose energy and normally under-perform due to injuries or declining speed/skills.....especially in the new nhl where speed is by far the most important skill

NYR Viper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2008, 01:19 PM
  #80
NYR Viper
Moderator
 
NYR Viper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: PA
Country: United States
Posts: 27,961
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rags225 View Post
now we have to go and get wingers who fit their style instead of Jagr's style. its the same situation just based around 2 people instead of 1. We had to completely change the team in the last two years to fit them, especially this offseason.


#1 scoring Eurpean of all time. Still one of the best players in the game. Do you even watch hockey or are you just being silly? Every time Jagr was on the ice he could score, or set somebody up. That is why teams built gameplans around stopping him.



you just answered your first question right there. We are now juggling the lineup, and our team around Drury and Gomez. Same situation as basing a team around Jagr. I am not why this is so hard a concept to understand.




we also got worse last year. and now who knows what next season will bring. It looks like we will be even worse than last year.
no, they dont because the rangers, for the past 4-5 years have drafted based on playing this type of style......they have players like dawes and dubinsky and many many others who play the same style as gomez and drury instead of puck possession like jagr

jagr had one point more than gomez.......hard to say he is one of the bets players in the league and then a player, on the same team who had one less point and was by far the better player(on average throughout the season) isnt any good

NYR Viper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2008, 01:20 PM
  #81
DontStepanMe
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Queens, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 5,376
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
so glad the rangers got younger and faster.....this nhl is built on speed, there is no way around it......look at the teams who scored the most goals last season.....ottawa, montreal, detroit......what do they all have in common?.....they all have a TON of speed and can counter-attack in a split second which opens up the ice because the opposing defense needs to respect that......shanahan was painful to watch and jagr was not the same.....i enjoy watching teams like the habs who play with speed and counter and push forward with break-out passes to srping their forwards........

IMO the rangers lok more like the two first-place teams from last season....they got a lot faster(redden>malik, naslund>shanahan, zherdev>jagr), younger(which equates to more energy) and are all on the same page now.....
How are you comparing us to any of those teams especially detroit. Detroit was an East-West team w/ vastly superior talent. Ottawa completely fell apart last year, but they have an insanely good first line (we do not), and Montreal has Kovalev who is better offensively than any of our players, and markov who is better than any of our defensemen. plus another thing that all three teams had in common was size. their best players are all over 6 ft. Ours are basically all under 6ft and much less physical than theirs.

DontStepanMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2008, 01:23 PM
  #82
NYR Viper
Moderator
 
NYR Viper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: PA
Country: United States
Posts: 27,961
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rags225 View Post
we paid for it last year, and we are still paying for it. A team w/ Nylander, Jagr and one of Gomez and Drury is still better than a team w/ Drury, Gomez and Zherdov. In fact its not even close.
how so?.....nylander at 37, jagr aAT 37 isnt better than what the rangers have....nylander had how many points last season?....jagr had how many points last season?.....by going off of points i would say the second is better.....they are also the more complete players in the second list, younger, bring more energy, fit the system better and play in more situations

NYR Viper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2008, 01:26 PM
  #83
NYR Viper
Moderator
 
NYR Viper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: PA
Country: United States
Posts: 27,961
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rags225 View Post
How are you comparing us to any of those teams especially detroit. Detroit was an East-West team w/ vastly superior talent. Ottawa completely fell apart last year, but they have an insanely good first line (we do not), and Montreal has Kovalev who is better offensively than any of our players, and markov who is better than any of our defensemen. plus another thing that all three teams had in common was size. their best players are all over 6 ft. Ours are basically all under 6ft and much less physical than theirs.
i was comparing speed....did you read what i wrote or just take what you wanted from my post ot make a counter?.....

who in montreal is physical?....i believe they were looked at as a team who wouldnt make the playoffs and they took their overall team speed and used it in their game-plan......

who in detroit is overly physical?....holmstrom....franzen.....thats two players.....

neither of those teams are overly physical or large, they just have the speed to pressure the puck....

NYR Viper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2008, 01:27 PM
  #84
DontStepanMe
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Queens, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 5,376
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
no, they dont because the rangers, for the past 4-5 years have drafted based on playing this type of style......they have players like dawes and dubinsky and many many others who play the same style as gomez and drury instead of puck possession like jagr

jagr had one point more than gomez.......hard to say he is one of the bets players in the league and then a player, on the same team who had one less point and was by far the better player(on average throughout the season) isnt any good
jagr was so low pt wise b/c he was playing w/ a rookie and couldn't get comfortable w/ any center until the end. By the way at the end he was far and away the best player on the team especially in the PO's.

and about our Drafting... first off Dubi obviously can play the puck possession style, and I think dawes probably could as well since he is such a good passer. Secondly I think alot of our other top players such as Ani and Korps can fit into either mold. And again there is nothing stopping the team from having one line east-west and another line playing N-S

DontStepanMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2008, 01:29 PM
  #85
DontStepanMe
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Queens, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 5,376
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
how so?.....nylander at 37, jagr aAT 37 isnt better than what the rangers have....nylander had how many points last season?....jagr had how many points last season?.....by going off of points i would say the second is better.....they are also the more complete players in the second list, younger, bring more energy, fit the system better and play in more situations
Nylander was injured, and neither was playing together that's why their points were down. When they played together they were ridiculously good. Just look at the two years they were together.

DontStepanMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2008, 01:32 PM
  #86
DontStepanMe
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Queens, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 5,376
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
i was comparing speed....did you read what i wrote or just take what you wanted from my post ot make a counter?.....

who in montreal is physical?....i believe they were looked at as a team who wouldnt make the playoffs and they took their overall team speed and used it in their game-plan......

who in detroit is overly physical?....holmstrom....franzen.....thats two players.....

neither of those teams are overly physical or large, they just have the speed to pressure the puck....
Detroit also has Kronwall, Stuart, Cleary

Montreal has - Komisarek, higgins, latendresse

DontStepanMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2008, 01:37 PM
  #87
Fletch
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Brooklyn
Posts: 20,919
vCash: 500
viper...

I'm not sure you can compare Gomez's and Jagr's point totals. One was the focal point of other teams' defense and the other was behind the focal point. Sure, a top line forward should have more points than a second line winger. But the top line winger's job is tougher. Second, Jagr did play 15 games with Marcel Hossa - that's a crutch if I ever saw one. Fault Jagr a bit for not being as dominant as he was in the prior season to make Marcel look like Marian, but at the same time, even the best of players need their linemates to finish their opportunities to get points.

Fletch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2008, 01:39 PM
  #88
NYR Viper
Moderator
 
NYR Viper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: PA
Country: United States
Posts: 27,961
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rags225 View Post
Detroit also has Kronwall, Stuart, Cleary

Montreal has - Komisarek, higgins, latendresse
kronwall and komisarek are physical players, however the others are borderline....latnedresse is a lot like dubinsky, with less skill......cleary is a more skilled callahan as he isnt a very big player.......higgins isnt physical....he is as physical as a drury or dawes....he throws hits to gain posession of the puck and nothing more.....stuart played in LA most of the season.....

i understand what you are saying, and all i was stating is that i like the fact that the rangers have a lot more speed because if you look at the teams who do well during the season and during the playoffs they are teams who have a lot of speed.....

montreal, detroit, san jose, dallas, philly, pitt, buffalo(2 years ago), sens.....even carolina when they won the cup were a very fast team.....the rangers were slowing down and it was very evident when the played pitt in the playoffs.....they were too slow and too old to compete in a 7 game series with teasm like philly and pitt who are more physical, faster and had more energy than the players the rangers had filling large roles like straka, shanahan, malik/backman

NYR Viper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2008, 01:42 PM
  #89
NYR Viper
Moderator
 
NYR Viper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: PA
Country: United States
Posts: 27,961
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
I'm not sure you can compare Gomez's and Jagr's point totals. One was the focal point of other teams' defense and the other was behind the focal point. Sure, a top line forward should have more points than a second line winger. But the top line winger's job is tougher. Second, Jagr did play 15 games with Marcel Hossa - that's a crutch if I ever saw one. Fault Jagr a bit for not being as dominant as he was in the prior season to make Marcel look like Marian, but at the same time, even the best of players need their linemates to finish their opportunities to get points.
i understand that jagr played against tougher opposition sometimes....however gomez played with shanahan most of the season....thats a HUGE crutch......i just dont understand people saying jagr(at 37) is a lot better than gomez right now....i would take gomez as he is the more complete player....can jagr be more dominant?....absolutely....can he withstand the 82 game season and then play at a high level in the playoffs?.....no......and he basically said so when he said he was holding back during the season

NYR Viper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2008, 01:42 PM
  #90
DontStepanMe
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Queens, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 5,376
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
Rags:

i see what you are saying, however the one thing i disagree with is that the zherdev would not have been needed if jagr was resigned....there still would have been a need for a top-6 winger and when a player with his potential comes up in a trade for a player who is under-performing the trade must be done....i liked tyutin, but zherdev has a much bigger impact on games and is younger.....also backman was also traded which allows the rangers to gain some cap room.......
ok i'll give you that. and it was a trade that I think is a good trade.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
i think that you wanted was to keep nylander?....how do you know sundin would have worked with jagr?....how do you know that he wouldve stayed healthy?......how do you know they both would have fit under the cap?....
yes I did want them to keep Nyls. I don't know that Sunding would work w/ Jagr, but on the other hand how do you know Nazzy and Zherdov will mesh w/ Drury and Gomez. i'm making an educated guess the same as you. What guarantees that anybody stays healthy. Nazzy getting up there in age as well. he could get injured next year. And about the cap I wouldn't have signed Redden and just let Staal and Rosy take the first pairing hopefully Staal would keep growing so fast risky yes but less risky than a 6yr deal. So they would have fit under. Plus under my whole scenario we wouldn't have two $7mil contracts we would only have one of Drury or Gomez not both.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
given the option of sundin(at 38) + jagr at (37) or gomez(at 28) + drury(at 31) to build a young team around, i choose the second option....realistically the rangers are a good team next year with the first IF they can stay healthy but how much pressure do you want to put on two players well past their prime?.....what happens if sundin all of a sudden has a shanny-like drop-off?....or sundin hurts his hip and needs surgery?.....they also play a totally different style than all of the younger players the rangers have been drafting, so you want p0layers to come up and play that style and learn that style(a new style) while trying to adjust to the nhl?......again, i dont understand how people dont remember what happens when teams are built around older players....they are good for a while but lose energy and normally under-perform due to injuries or declining speed/skills.....especially in the new nhl where speed is by far the most important skill
But the problem is is that Gomez and Drury aren't players to build a team around. they are complimentary players. Plus it's not all bad to build around a team of older players. Stars do it w/ Modano, Colorado does it w/ Sakic, Anaheim did it w/ Selanne and they are all serious teams. Heck Detroit does it w/ Lidstrom, montreal does it w/ koivu and kovalev.

jagr and Sundin even at their age are still better players than Gomez and Drury.

and again please stop w/ injuries. Drury and gomez both had injuries that affected their games last year. how do we know that it won't happen again. We don't so I'm not going to bring it up. injuries happen and its part of the game, but niether jagr or Sundin really have a medical history to worry about.

DontStepanMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2008, 01:45 PM
  #91
DontStepanMe
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Queens, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 5,376
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
i understand that jagr played against tougher opposition sometimes....however gomez played with shanahan most of the season....thats a HUGE crutch......i just dont understand people saying jagr(at 37) is a lot better than gomez right now....i would take gomez as he is the more complete player....can jagr be more dominant?....absolutely....can he withstand the 82 game season and then play at a high level in the playoffs?.....no......and he basically said so when he said he was holding back during the season
and Playing w/ three different centers, one of them a rookie who was finding his way through the league isn't? Playing w/ Marcel Hossa isn't? be realistic here. they both had crutches last year and thats why both didn't put up alot of points. However gomez was basically in line w/ this career point totals, while Jagr was down alot. It is safer to say that Jagrs crutches of top defenses and a rookie was bigger than Gomez' of Shanny who by the way still put up 20+ goals.

edit: didn't see Fletch's original posting. Sorry. you are right that Gomez had a crutch as well. They both did, however I still think that Jagr's crutch was bigger especially b/c of Jagr's East-West style of play which needs alot of good passing.

DontStepanMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2008, 01:48 PM
  #92
NYR Viper
Moderator
 
NYR Viper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: PA
Country: United States
Posts: 27,961
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rags225 View Post
and Playing w/ three different centers, one of them a rookie who was finding his way through the league isn't? Playing w/ Marcel Hossa isn't? be realistic here. they both had crutches last year and thats why both didn't put up alot of points. However gomez was basically in line w/ this career point totals, while Jagr was down alot. It is safer to say that Jagrs crutches of top defenses and a rookie was bigger than Gomez' of Shanny who by the way still put up 20+ goals.

edit: didn't see Fletch's original posting. Sorry. you are right that Gomez had a crutch as well. They both did, however I still think that Jagr's crutch was bigger.
lol.....i will just say they both had a crutch...i dont know whos was bigger but they both werent playing up their respective levels witht he players they were given to play with

NYR Viper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2008, 01:52 PM
  #93
chosen
Registered User
 
chosen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,599
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
...given the option of sundin(at 38) + jagr at (37) or gomez(at 28) + drury(at 31) to build a young team around, i choose the second option....
Ignoring all other factors concerning how the Rangers will do next year it should be pointed out that Jagr and Sundin were players worthy of building a team around. I don't think Gomez is in that class and Drury is far below that class.

In order to build around a player or two it is essential to have that player or two.

I still maintain that the key to the Rangers over the next two seasons is Zherdev. If he blossoms as hoped they have a shot of competing with the top teams. If he doesn't, I don't think that they have a ghost of a chance.

chosen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2008, 01:52 PM
  #94
Trxjw
Moderator
Bored.
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Land of no calls..
Country: United States
Posts: 16,288
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rags225 View Post
Come on the Drury and Gomez signings reek of knee jerk reactions. We need a center, lets go get two instead. Like I said before we should have signed Jagr and Sundin to two year deals. Now we have a bonified #1 and #2 lines. Leave Drury on Gomez' wing on the second line. Hell if Dubi (or Ani) gets good enough by the end of this year or next year than we can even rid ourselves of one bad contract in gomez, while getting some assets in return. A complete win-win. And don't say it would make the Rangers look bad if we traded a guy we signed 2 or 3 years ago, b/c trades happen all the time. sometimes teams change, or prospects make players expendable.

-Sundin-Jagr
Drury-Gomez-

is 100x better than what we have today. and if your willing to give Nazzy a 2yr deal than why not Jagr or Sundin. B/c Nazzy is almost as old and still isn't as good as either of them.
How were you planning on signing Sundin and Jagr to 7 mil contracts (which is what Jagr was looking for) when you can't defer salary to the following season?

Dubinsky, for all his talent, is not a suitable replacement for Gomez. I think he's tremendously overrated around here.

I'm not saying Naslund was a great signing, but I don't think he is a bad one either. If Jagr wanted to come back at 4 mil per year, then maybe I would have considered it. But he made it pretty clear that he wanted respect, and by respect he meant money.

Quote:
and just because we needed a top pair dman it does not excuse Sather of overspending in money and years to get one. I would have rather gotten a minor upgrade on defense and left Staal and Rosy together in the hopes that Staal would develop fast.
It's not an excuse, you're right, but it wasn't Sather who dictated the Redden signing, it was the market. There is a reason that top-echelon players make more and more money every year and it's not because GM's just feel like paying more money for the hell of it.

I don't think Rozsival, despite his contract, is going to be here beyond next March.

Quote:
I never mentioned any of these guys and i know that Cherry isn't coming over. Potter though I think could have been a #6 guy on this team though. Korps is ready to step into 3rd line. Byers is ready to step into 4th line. Ani might be ready to step into 3rd line.

Still letting them play and seeing what we have (while keeping cap space open) is a better choice than giving out Long term Deals for a player coming off a down year for a high price.
I know you never mentioned those players, but you also said we have kids waiting in the wings. I simply questioned who those kids are that you're referring to. I don't see a plethora of high end talent ready to leap into the NHL.


Quote:
it's not the end of the world but if the Redden and Nazzy signings don't pan out, or if Zherdov doesn't live up to potential we are pretty screwed for a long while.
If Zherdev doesn't pan out, we trade him next year. You can bet there is some team that would want him. Naslund is only on the books for two seasons, hardly a long-term debacle. On the same token, how is Jagr at two years better than Naslund at two years? What makes you think that Jagr was going to keep producing, and not continue on his own decline? Re-signing Jagr would've been just as big of a risk as signing Naslund.

Quote:
Also I have stated this many times before, I hated signing Drury and Gomez as soon as it happened. sign one that's fine but not both. I don't even care which one was signed. We had a need for 1 center. Both could have filled that need. Signing both actually exacerbated the problem b/c in the end now we needed a first line center and a change in philosiphy.
I've said this before, but I hardly think Sather intended on landing both Drury and Gomez. I'm pretty sure it was one or the other and he wound up with both of them accepting his offers.


Quote:
Granted the end of Jagr era was going to end. but I really believe he had two solid years left of hockey. and nobody said that we wouldn't be bringing up new blood, b/c there would still be some room. 1-2 top line wingers, and 3 3rd line wingers, and of course the entire 4th line would be pretty much open competition.
Jagr might have had two more years left in him, but he shot himself in the foot by making demands for his contract. If he wanted to play that badly, he should have taken a paycut considering his production was falling.

Quote:
I'm not complaining about the Zherdov trade. It was a good trade. But we wouldn't have needed it if Jagr was still here, if we didn't sign both drury and gomez. One thing lead to another, which lead to another. it was a chain reaction.
You said we were "forced to trade away Tyutin and Backman." I guess I misunderstood your feelings about that.

Quote:
We have Prucha, Dawes, Cally, Orr, Betts, Korps, Ani, Jessiman, Byers, Moore, Parenteau, Jamtin fighting spots as well. if they couldn't bring themselves to compete against each other than we have more problems than I thought. There was absolutely no need for either. Especially now since we got Fritsche as well. If we signed one not that bad, but both was just retarded. Again a knee jerk reaction. We needed some size up front so lets sign two bottom feeders. But we have players in the minors more than capapble of filling out the bottom 2 lines.
Slats and Renney obviously aren't as sure of the development status of our youth as you are, but frankly I have to trust them on this. What if guys like Byers, Moore and Korpikoski play on the 4th line and can't hack it? Then what? At least now we have guys with NHL experience that are available. That's important.


Quote:
Wrong. Sometimes you just trust w/ what you have. Look at Colorado. they let go of Kariya, Selanne, Forsberg, Tanguay over the years and really have just replaced them w/ youths who are doing just fine. Detroit lost Shanny, and Hull over the last couple years and they filled their forwards from the inside.
And Detroit had guys like Zetterberg, Franzen and Datysuk to step into those roles. We don't have those kinds of prospects.

Quote:
also we wouldn't be in the same exact situation as this offseason if we signed Jagr and Straka to one year deals (using your example). our players would have one more year experiece. We would know more of what they are capable of, which in turn would let us make wiser decisions regarding FA. Plus our players in the AHL would probably get a little NHl experience and at worst would have another full season of AHL so they would be more prepared to make the jump.
Jagr didn't want a one year deal, I was just making a point. I wouldn't trade a season of positive change for one more season of mediocrity.


Quote:
yes there are tons of possibilities but the way Sather is running things it looks like he is going back to his old ways. Giving out LTC's at high $ to players who don't deserve it. We now have alot of money locked up and we still don't have any of our young players locked up yet long term besides lundy. In the next 2 years we have to re-sign Dubi, Staal, Ani, Korps, Zherdov, Girardi. hope the cap keeps skyrocketing b/c if it doesn't we are in a world of hurt b/c of NMC's and limited NTC's.
Naslund will come off the books in time to sign Staal. Dubinsky isn't getting a huge raise that can't be covered by Prucha not being resigned. What possible sort of raise are Korps and Anisimov going to get if they've only played one season in the NHL? We aren't going to have to come up with huge contracts for these kids. Zherdev is the only one you're going to have to worry about, but even then he probably won't get more than a 3yr/12 mil deal unless he has a breakout year this season. Some players will also have to be moved out to make space for guys like Cherepanov and Sanguinetti.

Trxjw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2008, 01:54 PM
  #95
Fletch
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Brooklyn
Posts: 20,919
vCash: 500
viper...

Shanny scored 23 goals in 73 games...that's actually not so bad, and I don't remember saying to myself that Gomez is setting Shanny up left and right and he can't finish. One thing Shanny was still able to do was shoot, and if Shanny got the puck from Gomez in shooting position, he'd get off a quality shot. If he was a crutch because Shanny didn't play Gomez's run and gun style and that hurt him, well then that's another thing, but at the same time Gomez equaled his second highest point total last season and I don't know if I would've expected much more than 70 points from him if he wasn't playing with Jagr. Also, his assist tally was two less than his career best. It was right up there with one of his finest seasons in the NHL.

EDIT: I'm not saying Jagr's a lot better than Gomez. Better, yes, not a lot better. Gomez has never been the go-to guy on a team. He was a part of teams that had a bunch of really good guys who weren't superstars. Guys who can score 40 goals one season and 25 the next. That's the boat he's in again with the Rangers. And while in that situation his numbers also were all over the place. Playing on a second line behind Jagr benefitted Gomez, and it benefitted the Rangers. Not having that will be different and it will be interesting to see how these players respond. I like the idea of having a 'team'. I'm just not sure I'm in love with how it's made up at the current moment.

Fletch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2008, 01:55 PM
  #96
BrooklynRangersFan
Change is good.
 
BrooklynRangersFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Brooklyn of course
Country: United States
Posts: 10,054
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rags225 View Post
we paid for it last year, and we are still paying for it. A team w/ Nylander, Jagr and one of Gomez and Drury is still better than a team w/ Drury, Gomez and Zherdov. In fact its not even close.
First of all, it's Zherdev.

Secondly, if Nylander had been willing to take a one or two year deal, we might not be having this conversation.

What gets me is that some of you who harp so hard about how much you hate the contracts we currently have on the team... ...magically somehow become completely oblivious to the set-in-stone reality of the contract we would have had to take on to keep the favorite players that we let walk.

You want Nylander? You get a 4 year/$4.875MM per contract, leaving us with a 39 year old Nylander in the last year. Personally, I'd rather have a 5 year/$7.050MM per contract, leaving us with a 36 year old Drury in the last year.

BrooklynRangersFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2008, 01:55 PM
  #97
NYR Viper
Moderator
 
NYR Viper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: PA
Country: United States
Posts: 27,961
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rags225 View Post
ok i'll give you that. and it was a trade that I think is a good trade.



yes I did want them to keep Nyls. I don't know that Sunding would work w/ Jagr, but on the other hand how do you know Nazzy and Zherdov will mesh w/ Drury and Gomez. i'm making an educated guess the same as you. What guarantees that anybody stays healthy. Nazzy getting up there in age as well. he could get injured next year. And about the cap I wouldn't have signed Redden and just let Staal and Rosy take the first pairing hopefully Staal would keep growing so fast risky yes but less risky than a 6yr deal. So they would have fit under. Plus under my whole scenario we wouldn't have two $7mil contracts we would only have one of Drury or Gomez not both.




But the problem is is that Gomez and Drury aren't players to build a team around. they are complimentary players. Plus it's not all bad to build around a team of older players. Stars do it w/ Modano, Colorado does it w/ Sakic, Anaheim did it w/ Selanne and they are all serious teams. Heck Detroit does it w/ Lidstrom, montreal does it w/ koivu and kovalev.

jagr and Sundin even at their age are still better players than Gomez and Drury.

and again please stop w/ injuries. Drury and gomez both had injuries that affected their games last year. how do we know that it won't happen again. We don't so I'm not going to bring it up. injuries happen and its part of the game, but niether jagr or Sundin really have a medical history to worry about.

the reason i brought up injuries was because sundin has hip problems and before this season was considered on the decline....not exactly the player, who at 38, who i want my team built around...

teams sometimes build around players who are older, but not as old as jagr and sundin......the stars built their team around morrow....an in your face hard forechecking team.......anaheim built around their defense with niedermeyer and pringer who, arent young but werent as old as sundin or jagr........detroit built their team around zetterberg and datsyuk and lidstrom....but lidstrom is a freak of nature


that is your opinion that sundin and jagr are better than jagr and gomez......to me i would rather have drury and gomez and have a longer window with those two players than 1 or two years of sundin and jagr....



again, i was just pointing out the fact that as some players get older, their styles of play catch up to them....power forwards are like that....sundin is a prime example...is he good when healthy?...yes......but he hsa serious hip problems that could act up at any time

NYR Viper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2008, 02:00 PM
  #98
NYR Viper
Moderator
 
NYR Viper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: PA
Country: United States
Posts: 27,961
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
Shanny scored 23 goals in 73 games...that's actually not so bad, and I don't remember saying to myself that Gomez is setting Shanny up left and right and he can't finish. One thing Shanny was still able to do was shoot, and if Shanny got the puck from Gomez in shooting position, he'd get off a quality shot. If he was a crutch because Shanny didn't play Gomez's run and gun style and that hurt him, well then that's another thing, but at the same time Gomez equaled his second highest point total last season and I don't know if I would've expected much more than 70 points from him if he wasn't playing with Jagr. Also, his assist tally was two less than his career best. It was right up there with one of his finest seasons in the NHL.

EDIT: I'm not saying Jagr's a lot better than Gomez. Better, yes, not a lot better. Gomez has never been the go-to guy on a team. He was a part of teams that had a bunch of really good guys who weren't superstars. Guys who can score 40 goals one season and 25 the next. That's the boat he's in again with the Rangers. And while in that situation his numbers also were all over the place. Playing on a second line behind Jagr benefitted Gomez, and it benefitted the Rangers. Not having that will be different and it will be interesting to see how these players respond. I like the idea of having a 'team'. I'm just not sure I'm in love with how it's made up at the current moment.
what i saw from shanny this season was that he would always ruin good rushes with shots from the blue-line because he was behind the play.....also, gomez always had to do all the work down low to get the puck because shanny wouldnt go into the corner....if gomez had a player more suited to him he wouldve had 80 points easily

NYR Viper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2008, 02:02 PM
  #99
Fletch
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Brooklyn
Posts: 20,919
vCash: 500
Rags - I agree that Gomez and Drury are not players you build around - I agree they are complementary players. And of course, a team can be successful with the right mix of complementary players if they play a tight system and have a goalie to steal games. I see two ways of building a team. One is you build around a certain player or two, and the other is you build with a bunch of guys to play a certain way. The Rangers aren't really building around anybody at this point - they're just adding pieces to a puzzle to play a way in which they prefer. Of course we can argue that their way won't work and that their way of building is the wrong way to go about it.

Fletch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-22-2008, 02:05 PM
  #100
Fletch
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Brooklyn
Posts: 20,919
vCash: 500
viper - I think you're confusing something - Shanny took those shots from the blueline because he was entering the zone alone and wanted to put the puck on net - hope for a rebound and hope a faster guy, i.e., Gomez, would be sweeping in and putting hom that rebound. I wasn't a big fan of it, but my that's my recollection. Second, I really don't remember Gomez doing a heck of a lot of dirty work. Shanny always covered the right board. Avery or Dawes did a fair amount of digging.

Again, the guy still somehow had his second best assist output of his career, only two off from his career high. So either he all of the sudden got very good, since he was bogged down by his linemates, or his linemates actually did something on the ice.

Fletch is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:36 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.