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O/T: Will Johan Santana catch a break this season?

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07-23-2008, 08:17 PM
  #51
nyr2k2
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Right, what a dumbass move bringing in all those Latinos. I mean, there were so many better UFA options than Pedro Martinez and Carlos Beltran. There were also much better options for first than Carlos Delgado. Johan Santana? Totally overrated, I'm sure we could have found a better white guy if we tried.



Such a dumb, ignorant argument.

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Originally Posted by Rags225 View Post
I don't think its immature or hotheaded... its being competitive and showing a fire.

way back in the day the Sandy Koufax couldn't lift his left arm, which was black and blue all over. The doctors told him that if he tried to pitch there was a chance they would have to amputate his arm or he would lose full use of it... you know what he did. he pitched over 300 innings each year the next 2 season and won the cy young both years.

so if Santana can't pitch over 105 pitches, and he basically said it himself by not trying to go out there than all you have is a lazy overpaid athlete. he could have went out, he should have went out and most importantly HE SHOULD HAVE THE DESIRE TO GO OUT.
And Santana not wanting to go in... What does that have to do with him being Hispanic? Pedro Martinez can probably tell us why it's wise to not resist coming out of a game when you have nothing left in the tank. Or Victor Zambrano, who blew his ****ing arm out because he tried to pitch through pain.

I hope this thread gets locked. No, Santana will not catch a break, because the team is ******. And apparently we're ****** because we have too many wussy Latino players, and our GM only wants Latino players.

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07-23-2008, 09:15 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
Right, what a dumbass move bringing in all those Latinos. I mean, there were so many better UFA options than Pedro Martinez and Carlos Beltran. There were also much better options for first than Carlos Delgado. Johan Santana? Totally overrated, I'm sure we could have found a better white guy if we tried.



Such a dumb, ignorant argument.



And Santana not wanting to go in... What does that have to do with him being Hispanic? Pedro Martinez can probably tell us why it's wise to not resist coming out of a game when you have nothing left in the tank. Or Victor Zambrano, who blew his ****ing arm out because he tried to pitch through pain.

I hope this thread gets locked. No, Santana will not catch a break, because the team is ******. And apparently we're ****** because we have too many wussy Latino players, and our GM only wants Latino players.

i think that johan had something left. but otherwise i agree with your points.

and again i disagree with what rags said or some other ppl have suggested regarding johan having to kick and stomp his way back into that game.

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07-23-2008, 09:23 PM
  #53
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i think that johan had something left. but otherwise i agree with your points.

and again i disagree with what rags said or some other ppl have suggested regarding johan having to kick and stomp his way back into that game.
I'm not saying its right, but look at Greg Maddox.

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07-24-2008, 08:21 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
And Santana not wanting to go in... What does that have to do with him being Hispanic? Pedro Martinez can probably tell us why it's wise to not resist coming out of a game when you have nothing left in the tank. Or Victor Zambrano, who blew his ****ing arm out because he tried to pitch through pain.

I hope this thread gets locked. No, Santana will not catch a break, because the team is ******. And apparently we're ****** because we have too many wussy Latino players, and our GM only wants Latino players.
when did I say it had something to do w/ him being Hispanic. I was just stating it showed no heart or desire. That he is a little prima donna, who is complacent. If he really wanted the win, he would have taken control of the game and said i'm finishing what I started. 105 pitches is not a whole lot.

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07-24-2008, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Rags225 View Post
when did I say it had something to do w/ him being Hispanic. I was just stating it showed no heart or desire. That he is a little prima donna, who is complacent. If he really wanted the win, he would have taken control of the game and said i'm finishing what I started. 105 pitches is not a whole lot.
You're right, you didn't say it was because he was Hispanic. It was an inference I made as you "10000000000% agreed" that the Mets have too many Latino players. I was too confounded with nyrmessier making such an asinine statement and you agreeing with him to separate either of you. My bad.

So should he have pulled a Jose Reyes and thrown a temper tantrum so we could read about how immature he was for the next three weeks? Again, if he didn't think he had enough left to record three outs in the ninth, then he should have stepped aside. I'd rather my pitcher confess to being worn out than lie to the manager and injure himself or get battered around.

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07-24-2008, 08:38 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
You're right, you didn't say it was because he was Hispanic. It was an inference I made as you "10000000000% agreed" that the Mets have too many Latino players. I was too confounded with nyrmessier making such an asinine statement and you agreeing with him to separate either of you. My bad.

So should he have pulled a Jose Reyes and thrown a temper tantrum so we could read about how immature he was for the next three weeks? Again, if he didn't think he had enough left to record three outs in the ninth, then he should have stepped aside. I'd rather my pitcher confess to being worn out than lie to the manager and injure himself or get battered around.
honestly, i would rather him throw a temper tantrum. it shows heart, and that he wants to be in the situations. I was actually proud of Reyes wanting to play so badly. I did not think it was immature. Some of the greates players to ever play the game flipped on their managers for sitting them, or taking them out and it was ok years ago. Now it's immature. I for one would love a team in which every player is pissed off for being taken out of a game, or not playing in a game. It just shows that you want it. It's like the players back in the golden ages of baseball who short of getting shot you weren't taking them off the field. Today's players are overpaid little prisses that if they have a blister go on the 15 day DL. some players played w/ broken bones in their hands, or cracked ribs. it's sports, suck it up and play.

about the Hispanic thing... on this Mets team we do have lazy hispanics. Beltran, Delgado, Santana, Castillo are all lazy, complacent players just soaking up there paychecks. Now I have seen lazy complacent white, and black players, but on this particular team it seems that all the lazy players are of Hispanic descent. some of the hardest workers are also of Hispanic descent in Reyes, Chavez, Castro so it definately goes both ways.

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07-24-2008, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Rags225 View Post
honestly, i would rather him throw a temper tantrum. it shows heart, and that he wants to be in the situations. I was actually proud of Reyes wanting to play so badly. I did not think it was immature. Some of the greates players to ever play the game flipped on their managers for sitting them, or taking them out and it was ok years ago. Now it's immature. I for one would love a team in which every player is pissed off for being taken out of a game, or not playing in a game. It just shows that you want it. It's like the players back in the golden ages of baseball who short of getting shot you weren't taking them off the field. Today's players are overpaid little prisses that if they have a blister go on the 15 day DL. some players played w/ broken bones in their hands, or cracked ribs. it's sports, suck it up and play.

about the Hispanic thing... on this Mets team we do have lazy hispanics. Beltran, Delgado, Santana, Castillo are all lazy, complacent players just soaking up there paychecks. Now I have seen lazy complacent white, and black players, but on this particular team it seems that all the lazy players are of Hispanic descent. some of the hardest workers are also of Hispanic descent in Reyes, Chavez, Castro so it definately goes both ways.
Thanks for clarifying on the Hispanic thing. On the heart/desire thing, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

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07-24-2008, 09:39 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
Thanks for clarifying on the Hispanic thing. On the heart/desire thing, we'll just have to agree to disagree.
I just have an older school of thought. I loved the way the game was played until the late 80's when they players all became pampered and babied. You know. Three man to 4 man rotations. Pitchers expected to pitch all 9 innnings. Exhibition games during the season. Scheduled double headers that you pay for one ticket and get to see two games. it just seems were mentally, and physically more tough back then. Remember up until about the 1970's ball players still had regular jobs in the offseason. They lived in regular neighborhoods and were regular people. It's a connection w/ fans that is sadly lost due to money which also leads to their being pampered, and their complacency. No professional athlete will ever need to have a second job. Sadly money has changed the game for the worse, and that is why I get very upset w/ players. If they knew the history, or cared for the history of any professional sport they might, just maybe take what they are doing more seriously, and w/ a bigger fire w/in them.

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07-24-2008, 09:41 AM
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I just have an older school of thought. I loved the way the game was played until the late 80's when they players all became pampered and babied. You know. Three man to 4 man rotations. Pitchers expected to pitch all 9 innnings. Exhibition games during the season. Scheduled double headers that you pay for one ticket and get to see two games. it just seems were mentally, and physically more tough back then. Remember up until about the 1970's ball players still had regular jobs in the offseason. They lived in regular neighborhoods and were regular people. It's a connection w/ fans that is sadly lost due to money which also leads to their being pampered, and their complacency. No professional athlete will ever need to have a second job. Sadly money has changed the game for the worse, and that is why I get very upset w/ players. If they knew the history, or cared for the history of any professional sport they might, just maybe take what they are doing more seriously, and w/ a bigger fire w/in them.
I dont get what your saying - you mean the owners should make all the money and players should take offseason jobs cleaning horse stables so they can connect with the fans?

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07-24-2008, 10:06 AM
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I dont get what your saying - you mean the owners should make all the money and players should take offseason jobs cleaning horse stables so they can connect with the fans?
no, im just saying that players in the day were tougher. they had alot more hard times and that they had to perform well every year b/c every year their contract was up and if they played well they would get a little more money. The wanted to play every game every situation. Now players if they have a bad game or a bad season don't really care as much b/c hey I made $11 mil this season and i have a contract guaranteed for the next 5 years. Who cares. Not saying all players, but you definately see it in many players. You don't see that tough as nails approach, players sliding spikes up, not talking to the other team b/c they are your enemey. not nearly as many collisions at home plate. b/c oh no i might get a scratch and have to sit out a game. There arent many ballplayers who have that win at all costs mentality that the dykstras, koufaxs, robinsons, cobbs had throughtout the years. and it shows in the games, and the media doesn't help. The Wagners, LoDucas have that spirit but get chastized from the media for being outspoken, and speaking the truth. It really is a shame.

Luckily this hasn't happened in hockey nearly as much. But there are a few players it seems that are complacent, and as long as they get their money they are happy. Yashin is a great example of this.

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07-24-2008, 10:19 AM
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no, im just saying that players in the day were tougher. they had alot more hard times and that they had to perform well every year b/c every year their contract was up and if they played well they would get a little more money. The wanted to play every game every situation. Now players if they have a bad game or a bad season don't really care as much b/c hey I made $11 mil this season and i have a contract guaranteed for the next 5 years. Who cares. Not saying all players, but you definately see it in many players. You don't see that tough as nails approach, players sliding spikes up, not talking to the other team b/c they are your enemey. not nearly as many collisions at home plate. b/c oh no i might get a scratch and have to sit out a game. There arent many ballplayers who have that win at all costs mentality that the dykstras, koufaxs, robinsons, cobbs had throughtout the years. and it shows in the games, and the media doesn't help. The Wagners, LoDucas have that spirit but get chastized from the media for being outspoken, and speaking the truth. It really is a shame.

Luckily this hasn't happened in hockey nearly as much. But there are a few players it seems that are complacent, and as long as they get their money they are happy. Yashin is a great example of this.
Its just a game

And its ever changing, unless you're building a dynamite time machine, don't expect it to go back to the way it was. Theres a reason why things changed and why you don't see players with that old time mentallity anymore. And yes, some players dog it. But for every dog I can show you 10 lions.

Look at this very board. We have a guy like Drury who will do anything to win, but a good number of our fans think he's overrated due to the MONEY he makes. Who ****in cares about his paycheck, I know I dont worry one minute about it. The guy goes all out and thats all I ask for.

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07-24-2008, 10:27 AM
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Its just a game

And its ever changing, unless you're building a dynamite time machine, don't expect it to go back to the way it was. Theres a reason why things changed and why you don't see players with that old time mentallity anymore. And yes, some players dog it. But for every dog I can show you 10 lions.

Look at this very board. We have a guy like Drury who will do anything to win, but a good number of our fans think he's overrated due to the MONEY he makes. Who ****in cares about his paycheck, I know I dont worry one minute about it. The guy goes all out and thats all I ask for.
I think you are referring to me. The only reason I care how much he makes is b/c of the cap. Otherwise I wouldn't be nearly as critical.

I know its just a game, but it pisses me off when I see players dog it b/c as an athlete myself i would give anything to have had the opportunity to play professional sports. but they just take it for granted, especially baseball players. but then again I am extremely competitive and always had a burning fire inside me to be the best at whatever i did.

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07-24-2008, 10:48 AM
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I think you are referring to me. The only reason I care how much he makes is b/c of the cap. Otherwise I wouldn't be nearly as critical.

I know its just a game, but it pisses me off when I see players dog it b/c as an athlete myself i would give anything to have had the opportunity to play professional sports. but they just take it for granted, especially baseball players. but then again I am extremely competitive and always had a burning fire inside me to be the best at whatever i did.
Thing is, you are not there. You dont know what that life would do to you.

Fans are too idealistic cause theyve never had to go through any of what players who make it there go through. Its not easy, thats the short version.

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07-24-2008, 10:49 AM
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I'm not saying its right, but look at Greg Maddox.
you mean in regards to whether johan had something left or not? or demanding that he go back out there against the advice of his coaches?

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07-24-2008, 11:39 AM
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Thing is, you are not there. You dont know what that life would do to you.

Fans are too idealistic cause theyve never had to go through any of what players who make it there go through. Its not easy, thats the short version.
true.... but on the other side these players no nothing of what players before had to go through... sadly money has changed all sports for the worse... the owners get richer, the players get richer... the fans get screwed in entertainment value, and money.

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07-24-2008, 11:54 AM
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true.... but on the other side these players no nothing of what players before had to go through... sadly money has changed all sports for the worse... the owners get richer, the players get richer... the fans get screwed in entertainment value, and money.
But the fans keep coming back for more dont they?

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07-24-2008, 11:57 AM
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But the fans keep coming back for more dont they?
yup.

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07-24-2008, 02:56 PM
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Nice job today, boys! Ok, I officially don't hate Carlos Delgado any more. Beltran, on the other hand, is rising quickly on the crap list.

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07-24-2008, 03:03 PM
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Nice job today, boys! Ok, I officially don't hate Carlos Delgado any more. Beltran, on the other hand, is rising quickly on the crap list.
Ya see, they really shouldve swept the series, Met fans shouldnt panic, leave that to us Yankee fans

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07-24-2008, 03:10 PM
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Nice job today, boys! Ok, I officially don't hate Carlos Delgado any more. Beltran, on the other hand, is rising quickly on the crap list.
Beltran is maddening. He's super talented, super streaky and super inconsistent. And I have never seen a good player give away at-bats the way he does.

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07-24-2008, 03:27 PM
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First off, people in baseball have been fired for comments like this(articulate american voice!?), so i don't think i'm being too sensitive. Secondly, who you're describing here, like SBOB said, is David Wright !

Exactly, they have been fired because people are too sensitive to these comments. Pointing out one player is putting up a cheap argument. This has turned into a hispanic issue when my point really was that they could use another american or two on the team. It's what I think, it's not being racist, it's just how I think they can be a more complete team. Intangibles are a big part of the game and I think leadership in the room and through the papers in a city like this is an area the Mets lack.

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07-24-2008, 03:31 PM
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Exactly, they have been fired because people are too sensitive to these comments. Pointing out one player is putting up a cheap argument. This has turned into a hispanic issue when my point really was that they could use another american or two on the team. It's what I think, it's not being racist, it's just how I think they can be a more complete team. Intangibles are a big part of the game and I think leadership in the room and through the papers in a city like this is an area the Mets lack.
the team lost it's soul when Floyd and Cameron were shoved aside for Beltran and Alou. Floyds clubhouse humor was a gel... Look at how he's helping TB.

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07-24-2008, 03:33 PM
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But, why an AMERICAN player? Why not any player who's skilled and understands the nuances of the game? I think the Mets' biggest problem is similar to the Rangers in the Dark Ages: too many vets and not enough leadership. Wright is getting there, but he still needs to mature a bit. That and their freaking bullpen.

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07-24-2008, 03:34 PM
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Beltran is maddening. He's super talented, super streaky and super inconsistent. And I have never seen a good player give away at-bats the way he does.
No kidding. I still don't get why they keep him in the 4th spot. Why not Wright? Is it because they want the speed of Wright & Reyes on the bases at the same time?

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07-24-2008, 03:34 PM
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Exactly, they have been fired because people are too sensitive to these comments. Pointing out one player is putting up a cheap argument. This has turned into a hispanic issue when my point really was that they could use another american or two on the team. It's what I think, it's not being racist, it's just how I think they can be a more complete team. Intangibles are a big part of the game and I think leadership in the room and through the papers in a city like this is an area the Mets lack.
Pointing out your BEST player !

Forget it, I don't agree that you need more Americans as part of the 'intangibles'. Like thats whats holding you back from having a great team.

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