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Is Higgins Expendable?

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Old
08-07-2008, 06:44 PM
  #76
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I just can't see how you can say that Higgins played his heart out last year. To me, he wasn't playing half of the time...

As for those who say that we win cup with players like those... well we ALL saw that in the last playoffs... Chris sure looked like a playoffs performer back there...

Have you even seen him score from the faceoffs circle or farther at least once? I don't. He has a poor shot to play on the top two lines. And his hockey sense in the offensive zone is just atrocious... He almost never passes.

I just can't see how Higgins is a first line or a second line player right now. There is more than the stats to it... Did you see him dictate the play thi year? No. When placed on the third line, he was not producing that much, and it proves that his output depends of the players he is matched with.

I still say he is a great third line with SOME offensive capabilities, but he is not an offensive player and will not "WIN YOU" anything. He is the type of player everyone wants in his team, but not to play on the first line. If this guy plays more than 16:30 per night on your roster, you're not a Stanley Cup contender...

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08-07-2008, 07:08 PM
  #77
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Higgins is expendable, but not for that deal.

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08-07-2008, 07:11 PM
  #78
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Haha. So all top 6 forwards must dictate the play. I see. Interesting. I like how the Cup winners do not have 6 forwards that fit your description of a top-6 forward.

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08-07-2008, 07:13 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HamrlikTheStud View Post
I just can't see how you can say that Higgins played his heart out last year. To me, he wasn't playing half of the time...

As for those who say that we win cup with players like those... well we ALL saw that in the last playoffs... Chris sure looked like a playoffs performer back there...

Have you even seen him score from the faceoffs circle or farther at least once? I don't. He has a poor shot to play on the top two lines. And his hockey sense in the offensive zone is just atrocious... He almost never passes.

I just can't see how Higgins is a first line or a second line player right now. There is more than the stats to it... Did you see him dictate the play thi year? No. When placed on the third line, he was not producing that much, and it proves that his output depends of the players he is matched with.

I still say he is a great third line with SOME offensive capabilities, but he is not an offensive player and will not "WIN YOU" anything. He is the type of player everyone wants in his team, but not to play on the first line. If this guy plays more than 16:30 per night on your roster, you're not a Stanley Cup contender...

+ 9859487689547869547654389707389654764809


His stone hands and poor offensive vision will handicap his numbers. The perfect 3rd liner, but anything more than this means you're team isn't a cup contender.

I don't understand this quote "Higgins is the type of players that you win cups" thing... What cup ?! Cup of chokers ?! In his two playoffs appearance he was nothing but useless, let alone future captain and bla bla bla. Even when Koivu came back, when he played with him and Sergei he was still garbage.

Last year, the guy was floating 50% of the time and barely put any effort on the ice some nights !! Also, when he had some scoring chances, 95% of the time he missed. Honestly, how many times Higgins was in a breakaway and you guys all knew that he was gonna miss ?!

How many threads we saw last year ''Higgins needs to wake up", "Higgins can't score to save his life", "Higgins needs to step up his game", etc.

And you guys still saying that this guy is all about about Heart ?!? Koivu is heart, Komisarek is heart, S.Kostitsyn is heart, Kostoulos is Heart, Begin is Heart, Gorges is heart, Higgins ?! pfff not at all... And I'm not even mentionning several contraversial quotes from him, including bashing Ryder, his role as a forward and more last year and calling out Kovalev two years ago. Yeah talk about leadership... So stop with this myth that Higgins is all about heart, because he isn't at all !!

Overall, I don't see anything about this guy that will make my team win games, let alone win the Cup. He is an okay complimentary player who can produce a little bit with good players, very versatlile player none the less, anything more is way out of his capabilities... For the good of the Habs, he should play on the third line IMO.



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08-07-2008, 07:17 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Kareem Anderson View Post
I like Erika just for how much she annoys everyone. Internets being so serious and all.

Higgins is not expendable though, players that bleed bleu blanc rouge need to stay, it's one of the things previous managements got wrong.
I disagree. This team is not built for the playoffs. Many changes are needed at some point imo.

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08-07-2008, 07:20 PM
  #81
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I didn't know a guy that can score 30 goals makes a team look bad if he plays on the 2nd line.

Stone hands?





Even Aaron Downey can do that you know.

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08-07-2008, 07:32 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by HamrlikTheStud View Post
I just can't see how you can say that Higgins played his heart out last year. To me, he wasn't playing half of the time...

As for those who say that we win cup with players like those... well we ALL saw that in the last playoffs... Chris sure looked like a playoffs performer back there...

Have you even seen him score from the faceoffs circle or farther at least once? I don't. He has a poor shot to play on the top two lines. And his hockey sense in the offensive zone is just atrocious... He almost never passes.

I just can't see how Higgins is a first line or a second line player right now. There is more than the stats to it... Did you see him dictate the play thi year? No. When placed on the third line, he was not producing that much, and it proves that his output depends of the players he is matched with.

I still say he is a great third line with SOME offensive capabilities, but he is not an offensive player and will not "WIN YOU" anything. He is the type of player everyone wants in his team, but not to play on the first line. If this guy plays more than 16:30 per night on your roster, you're not a Stanley Cup contender...
He was in the dog house yes, based on his struggles at burying the puck. Carbs gave him a full role playing 2 way hockey, and IMO he gave us a decent performance. Not great, but very good.

We could go speak of our playoff run last year, but that is a but a brief memory for me. Higgins was not the only one who did not live to their expected levels, but his 5 points in 12 games was not out of the ordinary for Higgs, in fact, it was close to being on par to his regular totals. Yeah he does not kill with his stats, however he does do very well with consistency. It wasnt the PK that killed us in the PO's against Philly, it was the PP, Carey Price's blown groin, and a change in defensive presence. We did not lose the battles, we lost the war.

As for where he scores on the ice, I just want to bring up a point made in Dryden's book 'The Game' about Steve Shutt. Shutt was trained on smaller ice hockey rinks, where he didnt have the chance to stretch out his legs, but did more up close chip shots for goals against his neighbours. He brought that ability to the NHL, and proceeded to score 9 seasons of 30 goal seasons... Dryden figures it was the small ice rink that made him a dominating scorer. However it was brought in to this topic, due to the fact that Dryden also spoke of where this 60 + goal man (in 1 season) pots most of his goals from. The key rule in hockey is not how you get them... It's simply that you get them. To me, a 27 goal winger NOT playing on the first line is valuable. Very valuable. I agree to a point to his offensive creativity. He manufactured his points based on natural athletic gifts, not by being a student of the game. Yet, he still gets 27 goals, and 50+ points playing off the first line.

That's a stat I'd like to find out... How many other teams have a guy ranging around 50+ points, and as many hab fans have pointed out as him being accused of having an off year playing below line 1 on their respective club? Not many Im sure.

He's not expected to be a set up man & to be honest, thank god! we have too many guys who have that pass first mentality. Chris is the opposite, which is hard to come by in this roster.

Hockey is a team game, he had at the VERY least, 2nd line points... He played nearly 18 minutes a game, where 13.30 was spent on ES, 3.12 on PP, and 1.32 on the PK. He was a member of EVERY facet to this team, which found itself in 1st place, and you say he was a nobody out there? Or that a first place team is NOT able to contend EVEN mildly for a stanley cup?

This team lacked a few things to succeed, none being of Chris's strongsuits. 1) A tough guy to keep the opposition honest... Something I pointed out midway through the year, and GM Gainey also pointed out as the reason why he signed Big Georges this off season, 2) a stable blueline (esp the right side, it was glaringly obvious when Komi came back injured in the playoffs) and # 3) Size up the middle, which could be remedied this offseason if Mats makes his decision.

The LW & RW positions are fine the way they are now. LD is also fine, and in Goal, I am very comfortable with the 2 kids.

I am hoping Belle and O'Byrne can bring us a great break out season where one of the 2 will become an uncontested top 4 d-man to play with Hamr this year. and the other solidifies the top 6. High hopes I know, but I love this team, and I am an optimist, so...

To me, Higgins is a key cog type of player, to you he is not. That's all good, however you did bring out some great points that validate your perspective in this debate... But perspectives are all about how the person sees it. i.e. we definately see this player in different lights

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08-07-2008, 07:35 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Cutter View Post
I didn't know a guy that can score 30 goals makes a team look bad if he plays on the 2nd line.

Stone hands?





Even Aaron Downey can do that you know.
HIGGINS SUCKS!

Look at KOIVU SLASHING HIGGINS AFTER THE GOAL, WHAT A TERRIBLE LEADER, OMGZ. S. KOSTITSYN IS THE BEST EVERR, IMPREGNATE ME WIFFF URRRR BELARUSSIAN NESS, HIGGINS SUCKS, STONE HANDS, TRADE HIM, GIVE S. KOST THE CAPTAINNCYYYY.



There needs to be a smiley exploding icon.

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08-07-2008, 07:36 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by HamrlikTheStud View Post
IHe has a poor shot to play on the top two lines. And his hockey sense in the offensive zone is just atrocious... He almost never passes.
Wow.

You have no idea how much you just said about your knowledge of the game with this statement.

I don't mean to call somebody out, but this is really over-the-top embarrassing.

If you think Higgins has poor hockey sense in the offensive zone I can't really take anything you say seriously in terms of evaluating NHL hockey and NHL players. Scouts would literally be bent over laughing if this opinion were expressed as an evaluation of Chris Higgins.

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08-07-2008, 07:37 PM
  #85
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I am hoping Belle and O'Byrne can bring us a great break out season where one of the 2 will become an uncontested top 4 d-man to play with Hamr this year. and the other solidifies the top 6. High hopes I know, but I love this team, and I am an optimist, so...
Josh Gorges is better than both of them right now.... I doubt Belle cracks our top 6.

O'B will probably play with Hammer cause Carbo puts the biggest liability (O'byrne is inexperienced) with Hammer.... see where Brisebois and Streit always played.

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08-07-2008, 07:43 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeafRefereeeeeees View Post
I disagree. This team is not built for the playoffs. Many changes are needed at some point imo.
Why does Higgins have to be one of those changes?

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08-07-2008, 07:47 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Kareem Anderson View Post
Why does Higgins have to be one of those changes?
I dunno, but I guess Dallas never had any need for Jere Lehtinen to win a cup.

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08-07-2008, 07:50 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Erika Kostitsyn View Post
+ 9859487689547869547654389707389654764809


His stone hands and poor offensive vision will handicap his numbers. The perfect 3rd liner, but anything more than this means you're team isn't a cup contender.

I don't understand this quote "Higgins is the type of players that you win cups" thing... What cup ?! Cup of chokers ?! In his two playoffs appearance he was nothing but useless, let alone future captain and bla bla bla. Even when Koivu came back, when he played with him and Sergei he was still garbage.

Last year, the guy was floating 50% of the time and barely put any effort on the ice some nights !! Also, when he had some scoring chances, 95% of the time he missed. Honestly, how many times Higgins was in a breakaway and you guys all knew that he was gonna miss ?!

How many threads we saw last year ''Higgins needs to wake up", "Higgins can't score to save his life", "Higgins needs to step up his game", etc.

And you guys still saying that this guy is all about about Heart ?!? Koivu is heart, Komisarek is heart, S.Kostitsyn is heart, Kostoulos is Heart, Begin is Heart, Gorges is heart, Higgins ?! pfff not at all... And I'm not even mentionning several contraversial quotes from him, including bashing Ryder, his role as a forward and more last year and calling out Kovalev two years ago. Yeah talk about leadership... So stop with this myth that Higgins is all about heart, because he isn't at all !!

Overall, I don't see anything about this guy that will make my team win games, let alone win the Cup. He is an okay complimentary player who can produce a little bit with good players, very versatlile player none the less, anything more is way out of his capabilities... For the good of the Habs, he should play on the third line IMO.


27 goals is many more goals than a 3rd liner scores... So I dont see your reasoning there, about any handicap. It also does essentially eliminate the 'poor offensive vision' theory.

Guys who win you cups do not all have to be the prime time players in the league. There are guys who can contirbute to championships based on their all around play. Higgins can be placed anywhere and be a contributor. Not many players can boast that in the NHL. In many cases it's black and white, it's the grey players like Higgins who are cogs, cause he can play in both realms (Offensive & Defensive). They are few and far between.

He was in the dog house, and lauded a tonne for missing opportunities, however at the end of the year, even Carbonneau praised Chris for bringing a strong workmanlike performance to his game. The only thing he did not like was his decision making in the offensiv zone, once in a while. He was pulling the trigger too often, therefore limiting his own chances a bit too much. It was not his effort that was in question, as much as his pure instinctual hockey sense.

Threads are not what I go by for performance, it's the games I watch. There are too many finicky fans out ther, that are upset if a guy has a rough go in a long 82 game stretch. Heck, we even had 'trade Price' camps in the season, and 'Koivu sucks' threads. I like to read people's opinions, even yours... The greatest thing about it is that I still have my own just as you have yours... S'all good.

As far as him calling out the players, they deserved to hear it when they did, and were told it when the rest of us felt it. that's what a leader should do... Call out those who arent carrying their weight. Ryder failed to carry his weight last year, and Kovalev failed to do so 2 years ago.. .so what did chris do wrong? Im not seeing that point at all...

Heart is a multitude of things, I and many others see Chris' heart, I dont think Im imagining it when many can agree on this point.

Your last blurb, though, honestly, makes me think you dont watch the games. Higgins is all over the ice, all the time. He plays on average, nearly period a game for a 1st place team all year, and you dont see how he can win us games? Ill respect your opinion, however I do disagree completely.

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08-07-2008, 08:03 PM
  #89
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Higgins is a useful, versatile forward with speed who works hard but isn't a natural finisher around the net. However, because his feet are always moving he gets plenty of chances. Sure he misses a lot of breakaways but his speed and determination create these chances and this resulted in 27 goals this past season. Higgins also had 22 goals in 61 games the previous season.

Saying Higgins is expendable is absolutely ridiculous. Some can argue that he's not suited for the top two lines due to his lack of finish but ask yourself how many teams have four wingers that scored 27 goals last season?? Results are what matters and Christopher Higgins playing on our top two lines is the least of our problems.

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08-07-2008, 08:22 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by boogieman99 View Post
montreal fans seem to be undervaluing beiksa a bit

the value is fair in this
Montréal fans undervalue Bieksa? Does it hurt your hometown pride? Tough. He isn't needed, so keep him. Maybe you can trade him to the Bruins. Do you know how to find their forum on HFBoards? They'd be willing to give up Schaefer or Axelsson.

Quote:
Is Higgins Expendable ? Of course !! Some people here are talking like if he was the second coming of Lafleur or something... ... The guy is barely a second liner with 40-50 points average per season... THE MOST OVERRATED PLAYER OF THE HABS I'VE SEEN IN THE PAST 10 YEARS !!!!! Future captain and 70-80 points producer ?!?! He is an average second liner and depth player, but that's about it !!


Is Bieksa a good return ? Yes and No.
Yes, because he is a good young right handed offensive defensemen with lots of grit and aggressiveness.
No, because we don't know if he can come back to the level of play from 2 years ago, so it's a little bit risky...



__________________
Christopher Higgins: "I can score 40 goals" ............. Here to
Erika honey, we pray for your sake that you become more knowledgeable about hockey. You're a Kostitsyn fan, nothing more.


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08-07-2008, 08:37 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by boogieman99 View Post
montreal fans seem to be undervaluing beiksa a bit

the value is fair in this
Higgins has improved every year in the NHL.

Bieksa even before his injury regressed last year..... I don't know what Bieksa we are getting, the 06-07 one... or the one who sucked in 07-08 and is now just returning from a very serious injury....

If you can't see that he is a huge question mark, then you need to take off the homer glasses.

On top of that Bieksa is nearly double Higgins cap hit.

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08-07-2008, 08:53 PM
  #92
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Josh Gorges is better than both of them right now.... I doubt Belle cracks our top 6.

O'B will probably play with Hammer cause Carbo puts the biggest liability (O'byrne is inexperienced) with Hammer.... see where Brisebois and Streit always played.
Ill be honest, and say I agree, Gorges is the better player of the three... However I also believe he should be pegged as the third pairing LD, and Bubbles, could be the spare...

Definately though Hamr was playing with the biggest liabilities last year (which totally highlights his great addition to this team) however Id like to solidify the top 4 with 4 strong suitors, that could be moderately comparable to the Detroits & Anaheims of next year.

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08-07-2008, 08:56 PM
  #93
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You guys are absolutely nuts. Higgins is one of the most versitile players we have and he gets better every year. The guy was expected to be a 3rd liner at best and even if he ends up there this year, he's one of the best 3rd liners in the league.

I can't believe the **** he gets on this board. A year ago, he was a GOD here. A GOD. You ****ing fair weather fans are the most fickle bunch I have ever seen. I can't help but shake my head how quickly you guys turn on Higgins after a pretty DECENT season, and suddenly turn around swinging off Kovalev's nutsack after he has a great year. Did you all forget how ****** he was before? How his attitude was garbage and everyone wanted him traded? But nooo! "MAKE KOVALEV THE CAPTAIN", you all proclaim.

It's ridiculous. Some of you are completely clueless.

My prediction is that this time next year, we'll be seeing "HIGGINS IS GOD" threads, "TRADE SERGEI KOSTITSYN" threads, and "IS PRICE EXPENDABLE?" threads. You guys are absolutely crazy.


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08-07-2008, 08:57 PM
  #94
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Why does Higgins have to be one of those changes?
Size.

He hasn't been the same since he hurt his knee either. I'm willing to keep an open mind because he's young and had a bad shoulder during the playoffs though.

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08-07-2008, 09:01 PM
  #95
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Higgins is definately not expendable.
He is just getting in to his prime as a player, and IMO could attain even higher #'s in the coming season.
Guys like Higgins, are very valuable for us, esp. with his versatile play. He can get thrown n to any line, and he just does not miss a beat. He is a very accomplished hockey player, and though some have soured on him, he is definately still a Montreal Canadien I hope remains here for an extremely long time to come.

Bear in mind, that when Higgins talks, people tend to listen. He demonstrates strong leadership skills, and is a die hard canadiens fan to boot. It would not only be counter productive to trade higgins for anything other than a steal, it would also be just plain stupid.

Core players, are guys that are the face of the Franchise. Montreal has a few of them since they turned the franchise around.

The only thing I would like on this squad, is one more solid Right handed d-man (I cant believe Im saying this, but Rivet would be a very good addition there), and Sundin to finally tell all he is a Canadien in the upcoming season. That's the only thing I want by way of changes made to our roster.

In short, if the season did start tomorrow, I'd be extremely comfortable. Seriously.

Higgins though, is a key cog in Montreal. as many have mentioned, he's the type of unheralded guys who wins you championships. Many posters have mentioned this, and they would be right. It's ****ing HARD to find the few players who could bring in the same qualities to a team like Higgins does.

Montreal trades Higgins, we'd probably regret it, 'cause there isnt many around the league like him,

I love you Ghost#1, can't ever disagree with your posts.

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08-07-2008, 09:02 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by LeafRefereeeeeees View Post
Size.

He hasn't been the same since he hurt his knee either. I'm willing to keep an open mind because he's young and had a bad shoulder during the playoffs though.
Since his knee injury he increased he had his best goal scoring season.

If size troubles you, then Koivu, Plekanec, and S. Kost should be be on the bubble. Better look at skating before size.


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08-07-2008, 09:08 PM
  #97
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Why would we give up a guy who's young, shows tremendous potential for improvement, and consistently scores over 20 goals a yr even when he's injured for part of a season?Also, Higgins was tied for game winning goals (5) with Andrei Kostitsyn and Alexei Kovalev last season. Only Plekanec beat them out with 6 GWG.

Not to mention Chris and his father were big fans of the Habs before he was even drafted. This kids' got heart and bleeds bleu blanc rouge. I wouldn't throw that away this quickly.

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08-07-2008, 09:20 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Teufelsdreck View Post
Since his knee injury he increased he had his best goal scoring season.

If size troubles you, then Koivu, Plekanec, and S. Kost should be be on the bubble. Better look at skating before size.
Well, Koivu will likely be gone after his contract, so that's one less size-disadvantaged guy in the top 6...of course he's one of the few guys who wear their heart on their sleeves come playoff time as well.

I like all those players, but you can't have them all on the same team. We need more size balance imo. I expect a big trade or a couple trades at some point. Higgins could be the guy. Maybe not though, like I said. He could bust out with his goal scoring ability. He probably has minimal trade value at the moment anyway.

I'm a fan of his, I'm just being practical.

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08-07-2008, 10:26 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by LeafRefereeeeeees View Post
Well, Koivu will likely be gone after his contract, so that's one less size-disadvantaged guy in the top 6...of course he's one of the few guys who wear their heart on their sleeves come playoff time as well.

I like all those players, but you can't have them all on the same team. We need more size balance imo. I expect a big trade or a couple trades at some point. Higgins could be the guy. Maybe not though, like I said. He could bust out with his goal scoring ability. He probably has minimal trade value at the moment anyway.

I'm a fan of his, I'm just being practical.
Why will Koivu likely be gone?

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08-07-2008, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Erika Kostitsyn View Post
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His stone hands and poor offensive vision will handicap his numbers. The perfect 3rd liner, but anything more than this means you're team isn't a cup contender.

I don't understand this quote "Higgins is the type of players that you win cups" thing... What cup ?! Cup of chokers ?! In his two playoffs appearance he was nothing but useless, let alone future captain and bla bla bla. Even when Koivu came back, when he played with him and Sergei he was still garbage.

Last year, the guy was floating 50% of the time and barely put any effort on the ice some nights !! Also, when he had some scoring chances, 95% of the time he missed. Honestly, how many times Higgins was in a breakaway and you guys all knew that he was gonna miss ?!

How many threads we saw last year ''Higgins needs to wake up", "Higgins can't score to save his life", "Higgins needs to step up his game", etc.

And you guys still saying that this guy is all about about Heart ?!? Koivu is heart, Komisarek is heart, S.Kostitsyn is heart, Kostoulos is Heart, Begin is Heart, Gorges is heart, Higgins ?! pfff not at all... And I'm not even mentionning several contraversial quotes from him, including bashing Ryder, his role as a forward and more last year and calling out Kovalev two years ago. Yeah talk about leadership... So stop with this myth that Higgins is all about heart, because he isn't at all !!

Overall, I don't see anything about this guy that will make my team win games, let alone win the Cup. He is an okay complimentary player who can produce a little bit with good players, very versatlile player none the less, anything more is way out of his capabilities... For the good of the Habs, he should play on the third line IMO.


Kovalev needed to be called out that year. Would you rather he go around offering to sharpen skates? "yes missuh, you'll get'um next time!"

NO he stood up and as a young player demanded more out of the players who weren't contributing. Kovalev clearly wasn't during 2006-7.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeafRefereeeeeees View Post
Well, Koivu will likely be gone after his contract, so that's one less size-disadvantaged guy in the top 6...of course he's one of the few guys who wear their heart on their sleeves come playoff time as well.

I like all those players, but you can't have them all on the same team. We need more size balance imo. I expect a big trade or a couple trades at some point. Higgins could be the guy. Maybe not though, like I said. He could bust out with his goal scoring ability. He probably has minimal trade value at the moment anyway.

I'm a fan of his, I'm just being practical.
i hope not! Why would we get rid of Koivu?


Last edited by Beakermania*: 08-08-2008 at 09:48 AM.
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