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Bobby Orr: Greatest Player of All Time?

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Old
08-12-2008, 08:27 PM
  #151
Dark Shadows
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Okay, I should stop exaggerating but it doesnt sound right if Lemieux gets ranked 1st or 2nd, cuz he just isn't.
Not career obviously.

If discussing peak play however, Gretzky, Orr, Howe and Lemieux all get equal(Or close) consideration from me.

Quote:
'Lemieux's Cancer Hart season would likely have been a 95 goal, 220+ point season'

maybe, probably not. you can't say for certain that he would not have had a slump. that is what makes Gretzky's record so amazing, you can not have a single slump, you can not get injured or sick. Everything must work out perfectly.

99 proved he could get 200+ on 4 occassions. that ranks higher than 'could have if' everytime
I don't dispute Gretzky's greatness. but I strongly feel Lemieux was at a disadvantage coming out the gates for his first 6 years that has to be considered. Errey and Brown would not even have been third liners on that Oilers Dynasty, yet they were Lemieux's prime linemates and he managed to hit 199 points with them. When Lemieux finally had linemates of the same type of caliber for a full season and still young and finally having an injury free season, he gets cancer.

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Old
08-12-2008, 08:29 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Well Orr was scoring the most points and the best in his own end for his era and he was getting the playoff mvps. Mario was a 1 way player, all offence.
So was Gretzky, to an even worse degree.

but that was just the way the game was played at the time. Coaches told players like them to just go out and score.

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08-12-2008, 08:34 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Okay, I should stop exaggerating but it doesnt sound right if Lemieux gets ranked 1st or 2nd, cuz he just isn't.
alot of posters consider the 'highlight goal' as the single greatest aspect of the sport. Nothing else matters to them. to them 92 goals isn't as good as 86 if 20 of them were highlights, even though basic math says otherwise. to some, but not to me, the 500 foot homerun is better than two 380 foot homeruns.

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08-12-2008, 08:41 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by lrodptl View Post
Well if I had one game to save my family my first choice would be Orr,if I had 1500 games to do it I'd take Gretzky.
I think I'd have to take Darryl Sittler for just the one game.


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08-12-2008, 09:18 PM
  #155
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The ironic thing to all of this debate is that if Pocklington doesn't sell Gretz to the Kings the Oilers have a very good chance of winning the cup in 89 91 92 and 93 to go along with their cups from 84 85 87 88 and 90. Why is this ironic. Mario would have no cup ring and this nonsense talk of Mario>Gretz wouldn't exist. Gretz was the best player I've watched in person. No one will ever break most of his records and people who say Mario > Gretz are haters. Nothing more. Orr and Howe I've never had the pleasure of watching in person. But there is no debate between Mario and Wayne.

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Old
08-12-2008, 09:58 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by Mulligan View Post
I think I'd have to take Darryl Sittler for just the one game.

Maybe for one 10 point game?

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Old
08-12-2008, 10:29 PM
  #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Well Orr was scoring the most points and the best in his own end for his era and he was getting the playoff mvps. Mario was a 1 way player, all offence.
I consider Orr the greatest player I'll ever see, but that comment is somewhat short-sighted, IMO.

Mario, like Gretzky, was not simply another "1 way player".

When either of those two were on the ice, the entire shift for both teams to a large extent revolved around their presence, period. Regardless of whether or not they did anything on the shift. In that regard, they controlled the game. And their dominance over their opponents transcended any comparison. That is, "two-way" and other attributes typically (and correctly) associated with "normal" hockey players didn't matter.

And frankly, among all of the players I've seen since the 70s, they are the only two for whom such consideration didn't apply, for they were so above the rest.


Last edited by Trottier: 08-13-2008 at 03:46 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old
08-12-2008, 10:51 PM
  #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
I consider Orr the greatest player I'll ever see, but that comment is somewhat short-sighted, IMO.

Mario, like Gretzky, was not simply another "1 way player".

When either of those two were on the ice, the entire shift for both teams to a large extent revolved around their presence, period. Regardless of whether or not they did anything on the shift. In that regard, they controlled the game. and their dominance over their opponents transcended any comparison. That is, "two-way" and other attributes typically (and correctly) associated with "normal" hockey players didn't matter.

And frankly, among all of the players I've seen since the 70s, they are the only two for whom such consideration didn't apply, for they were so above the rest.
This is one of the more insightful posts I have read in awhile. Kudos

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Old
08-12-2008, 11:02 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by oil4life34 View Post
The ironic thing to all of this debate is that if Pocklington doesn't sell Gretz to the Kings the Oilers have a very good chance of winning the cup in 89 91 92 and 93 to go along with their cups from 84 85 87 88 and 90. Why is this ironic. Mario would have no cup ring and this nonsense talk of Mario>Gretz wouldn't exist. Gretz was the best player I've watched in person. No one will ever break most of his records and people who say Mario > Gretz are haters. Nothing more. Orr and Howe I've never had the pleasure of watching in person. But there is no debate between Mario and Wayne.
Its nearly impossible to take anything you say without a grain of salt on this topic considering your username. I watched both players , and from an unbiased point of view, you severely exaggerate.

There very much IS a debate to be made, regardless of what you think because the Oilers were your home team.

And for the record, If Pocklington doesn't sell Gretzky, he loses Messier + probably one other high salary key player. The team could not afford to keep both by any means, especially with Gretzky playing hardball for a large salary the way he planned on doing(As per Gretzky's autobiography, there was no way to keep both). Messier was also better than Gretzky very briefly in the early 90's, so losing him might have hurt the teams chances for a cup in 90.

Additionally, the Penguins teams of the early 90's were as stacked as any team I have seen, including the Oilers. There is an even chance for both teams in a heads up battle.

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08-12-2008, 11:18 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Well Orr was scoring the most points and the best in his own end for his era and he was getting the playoff mvps. Mario was a 1 way player, all offence.
Most of the time that was true. Except in the playoffs when Bowman asked the team to play more defensive minded hockey. I just watched a 92 game against Chicago and they asked Bowman about Lemieux not playing up to expectations because he only had 20 some points so far and Bowman said"Lemieux? He's been our best player by far, especially defensively." If you have the opportunity watch some or all of that series. He's as good defensively as any forward I've seen when he wanted to be while potting two points a game.

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08-13-2008, 12:58 AM
  #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thornton_19 View Post
Its nearly impossible to take anything you say without a grain of salt on this topic considering your username. I watched both players , and from an unbiased point of view, you severely exaggerate.

There very much IS a debate to be made, regardless of what you think because the Oilers were your home team.

And for the record, If Pocklington doesn't sell Gretzky, he loses Messier + probably one other high salary key player. The team could not afford to keep both by any means, especially with Gretzky playing hardball for a large salary the way he planned on doing(As per Gretzky's autobiography, there was no way to keep both). Messier was also better than Gretzky very briefly in the early 90's, so losing him might have hurt the teams chances for a cup in 90.

Additionally, the Penguins teams of the early 90's were as stacked as any team I have seen, including the Oilers. There is an even chance for both teams in a heads up battle.
Messier was better in the early 90s and then again in the mid 90's. During the 3 years from 95 lockout till 97, messier was a better player than gretzky.

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Old
08-13-2008, 03:14 AM
  #162
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[QUOTE=oil4life34;15144861]people who say Mario > Gretz are haters. [QUOTE]

I think most people have Orr, Lemieux, Gretz and Howe at the top of their lists. One could argue that the the order in this list doesn't matter. They are very hard to separate and whatever type of player you like will form your list.

My list again:
1. Orr - The complete Dman and the best player ever.
2. Lemieux - The best forward I ever saw.
3. Gretzky - You can't argue with those numbers. How the **** did he put up those numbers? A deceptively awesome player.
4. Howe - You can't argue with those numbers. Never saw him.

Maybe you could sneak in another Dman in this list because there are some great Dmen that just don't get the love they deserve because they didn't put up the points. But they where Dmen!!!!

/Cheers

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Old
08-13-2008, 05:37 AM
  #163
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Once again no on the
1
2
3

Combine them into a player you had parts of the greatest of all time - Eric Lindros


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08-13-2008, 05:51 AM
  #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
I consider Orr the greatest player I'll ever see, but that comment is somewhat short-sighted, IMO.

Mario, like Gretzky, was not simply another "1 way player".

When either of those two were on the ice, the entire shift for both teams to a large extent revolved around their presence, period. Regardless of whether or not they did anything on the shift. In that regard, they controlled the game. And their dominance over their opponents transcended any comparison. That is, "two-way" and other attributes typically (and correctly) associated with "normal" hockey players didn't matter.

And frankly, among all of the players I've seen since the 70s, they are the only two for whom such consideration didn't apply, for they were so above the rest.
Exactly, if you always have the puck, how good defensively do you really need to be? it's not like Lemieux was a liability, or Gretz for that matter.

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Old
08-13-2008, 09:39 AM
  #165
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Originally Posted by Randall Graves View Post
Exactly, if you always have the puck, how good defensively do you really need to be? it's not like Lemieux was a liability, or Gretz for that matter.
Well, Ill be honest. I liked and gave kudos to Trottier's post, but occasionally, Gretzky and Lemieux could be liabilities.

But I wouldn't say they "Always had the puck", Gretzky has more even strength goals against than any other player in history. He has the most even strength goals for as well.

Generally, the games revolved around them and they scored so much that it was ok. The point of the game is to outscore the opponent, and by a large margin in Gretzky's day

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Old
08-13-2008, 11:17 AM
  #166
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Originally Posted by Raoul Duke View Post
Once again no on the
1
2
3

Combine them into a player you had parts of the greatest of all time - Eric Lindros
Can you explain your post? I understand your Lindros fixation, but the part above with the numbers makes no sense at all. You list no players, so who are you combining to create Lindros?

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08-13-2008, 01:30 PM
  #167
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Originally Posted by Thornton_19 View Post
Well, Ill be honest. I liked and gave kudos to Trottier's post, but occasionally, Gretzky and Lemieux could be liabilities.

But I wouldn't say they "Always had the puck", Gretzky has more even strength goals against than any other player in history. He has the most even strength goals for as well.

Generally, the games revolved around them and they scored so much that it was ok. The point of the game is to outscore the opponent, and by a large margin in Gretzky's day
I would agree. Those two didn't always have the puck.That wasn't their game. They were opportunists. Puck possesion wasn't really how they accomplished what they did.

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08-13-2008, 01:42 PM
  #168
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I would agree. Those two didn't always have the puck.That wasn't their game. They were opportunists. Puck possesion wasn't really how they accomplished what they did.
Well, to be honest, Gretzky WAS a bit of a puck possession hog. But only because he was so good at moving it at the exact right time.

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08-13-2008, 01:49 PM
  #169
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Originally Posted by Thornton_19 View Post
Well, to be honest, Gretzky WAS a bit of a puck possession hog. But only because he was so good at moving it at the exact right time.
Gretzky's game was all about puck possession, from the nuetral zone to the back of the opponent's net.

Brett Hull proved you can pile up goals by being an opportunist, but nobody racks up 11 seasons of 100+ assists without handling the puck for significant amounts of time.

When the Oilers got the puck, they gave it Gretzky, then moved into position to support him while he danced around.

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08-13-2008, 02:31 PM
  #170
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Originally Posted by Thornton_19 View Post
Well, to be honest, Gretzky WAS a bit of a puck possession hog. But only because he was so good at moving it at the exact right time.
Yes that's true, he would hold the puck for quite awhile. I shouldn't have included Gretzky. When I said it I was thinking in comparison to Orr. But that isn't fair really because nobody has played a possession game like him.
Lemieux though to me seemed more like a take the puck and go score right away type. Though I suppose he would hold onto it for awhile at times too. I shouldn't have posted that comment before. Wasn't really thinking.

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08-15-2008, 03:27 PM
  #171
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Gretzky was the greatest player of all time. His strenght was his mind, and as we all know the pen is mightier then the sword. His hockey intelligence was unmatched. You could see Orr wind up and play keep away for a minute, but when you saw Gretzky it was usually in the back of your net before you had time to react or think...

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08-17-2008, 08:58 AM
  #172
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Originally Posted by lrodptl View Post
Well if I had one game to save my family my first choice would be Orr,if I had 1500 games to do it I'd take Gretzky.

It is Gretzky with out a doubt. There is no player who played the way Gretzky played when the game was on the line. People forget how great he was in the playoffs. This IMO is what separates him from the rest. Gretzky was clutch. No one played better then him in the playoffs year after year he was just on another level. He was better then Or, Howe and Mario when it came to the most important part of hockey the playoffs.


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08-17-2008, 08:16 PM
  #173
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I have always said Orr is better than grezkey. He scored 900+ point and he only played decent hockey till 26!

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08-17-2008, 08:17 PM
  #174
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Who is this "grezkey" you speak of?


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Old
08-17-2008, 08:56 PM
  #175
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Originally Posted by camperjr View Post
I have always said Orr is better than grezkey. He scored 900+ point and he only played decent hockey till 26!
I don't completely disagree with the "Orr is better than Gretzky" arguments, but points really are not a factor here in Orr's favor.

If Gretzky had injured himself after his 26th year and never played again, he still would have retired with 543 goals and 1520 points.

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