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Forsberg, Joe or Sundin - Who would you take in their prime!?

View Poll Results: In their prime:
Forsberg 149 60.57%
Sakic 92 37.40%
Sundin 5 2.03%
Voters: 246. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
08-12-2008, 11:30 AM
  #101
Dark Shadows
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bilros View Post
Forsberg had less icetime, since he gave more when he was on the ice.

Just like Lidström isn't as physical and gritty as alot of other defenders, which gives him more juice to play those extra minutes and be on top at the latter stages of his career. If he had a game with more focus on physique (IE hitting and getting in peoples faces) he wouldn't play 30 min/game at age 38-39, more like 22-23.
Sure he would. Bourque was averaging 28 minutes a game at age 38-41 and he played a much grittier game than Lidstrom. All the same

Quote:
Originally Posted by ;15137733
Look at the guys who played that game to its limit, Forsberg and Lindros.



One is retired, the other is but a shell of his former self. BUT, when they played and was at the top of their games, they brought everything and dominated every shift they made, Sakic never did.
Uh, Forsberg and Lindros are far from the only two guys who played a physical gritty forecheck game. In the late 99 era maybe.

And Sakic did bring it every game, and play hard every shift and yes, dominated. He simply played a different less physical style, and that style was, well, more effective. He scored more points for his team, helped his linemates and was slightly better defensively over Forsberg for 5 of the 9 years they played together, and this carried over to the playoffs(Conn Smythe winner ((almost twice)))

Quote:
But then there's the question; would you rather take Lindros & Foppa playing a softer game, having less of an importance to their team, but at the same time having a longer healthier career? I don't think that was ever the choice with those guys since they had that mentality, they were both all heart. Yeah, anyone who says Lindros played with no heart don't know their elbow from their @ss.
Sakic was just as important to the Avs than Forsberg, if not more. Lindros played excellently, and would have longer if he unlearned his silly habit of skating with his head down.

Quote:
Which would you take.

Lidström & Sakic playing at 95% for 18 years

or

Forsberg & Lindros playing at 100% for 5 years


I'd take Sakic and Lidström, but for those 5 years, Forsberg & Lindros dominated the game in a way neither of the other two was capable of. And dominance can't be measured simply with stats.
Sakic always gave 100% and never took a shift off. I would say the same about Lidstrom. They just have a different style that isn't as flashy as the above mentioned players, yet just as dominant.


Quote:
And what I meant about Bure vs Sakic, was that Bure was more noticeable.

Anyone disputing that?

Ofcourse Sakic was the better over all player...
Bure was flashier. Sakic still was an equal or better scorer than Bure strictly offensively speaking. When the other aspects of the game came in, Bure fell off the map.

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08-12-2008, 01:53 PM
  #102
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During the years they were both in Colorado, Forsberg had a better ppg than Sakic, both during regular season and during playoffs.

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08-12-2008, 05:29 PM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bilros View Post
During the years they were both in Colorado, Forsberg had a better ppg than Sakic, both during regular season and during playoffs.
For a guy who keep saying "Stats are irrelevant" whenever good stats in Sakic's case comes up, you sure like bringing up stats like PPG.

My answer.
So? His point per game is just barely a tiny fraction better over the long haul, and 5 out of 9 years Sakic bested him. Forsberg's style of play directly led to his injuries. If getting a higher PPG several years means by playing a style that will severely cripple your ability to persevere...... Ill take the safer style that wields similar PPG, but ends up helping the team more by staying healthy. You can't help the team from the pressbox

Sakic was also the most important forward both years Colorado won the cup. One Conn Smythe and one Conn Smythe Runner up to 0.

These graphs also do not include the fact that 4 of Sakic's best years were before Forsberg ever showed up.

Regular season
PlayerSeasonGamesPointsPoints Per game
Joe Sakic 1994-95 47 62 1.32
Peter Forsberg 1994-95 47 40 1.06
Joe Sakic 1995-96 82 120 1.46
Peter Forsberg 1995-96 82 116 1.41
Joe Sakic 1996-97 65 74 1.14
Peter Forsberg 1996-97 65 86 1.32
Joe Sakic 1997-98 64 63 0.98
Peter Forsberg 1997-98 72 91 1.26
Joe Sakic 1998-99 73 96 1.32
Peter Forsberg 1998-99 78 97 1.24
Joe Sakic 1999-00 60 81 1.35
Peter Forsberg 1999-00 49 51 1.04
Joe Sakic 2000-01 82 118 1.44
Peter Forsberg 2000-01 73 89 1.22
Joe Sakic 2001-02 82 79 0.96
Peter Forsberg 2001-02 0 0 0
Joe Sakic 2002-03 58 58 1.00
Peter Forsberg 2002-03 75 106 1.41
Joe Sakic 2003-04 81 87 1.07
Peter Forsberg 2003-04 39 55 1.41


Playoffs
PlayerSeasonGamesPointsPoints Per game
Joe Sakic 1994-95 6 5 0.83
Peter Forsberg 1994-95 6 6 1.00
Joe Sakic 1995-96 22 34 1.55
Peter Forsberg 1995-96 22 21 0.95
Joe Sakic 1996-97 17 25 1.47
Peter Forsberg 1996-97 14 17 1.21
Joe Sakic 1997-98 6 5 0.83
Peter Forsberg 1997-98 7 11 1.57
Joe Sakic 1998-99 19 19 1.00
Peter Forsberg 1998-99 19 24 1.26
Joe Sakic 1999-00 15 9 0.53
Peter Forsberg 1999-00 16 15 0.94
Joe Sakic 2000-01 21 26 1.24
Peter Forsberg 2000-01 11 14 1.27
Joe Sakic 2001-02 21 19 0.90
Peter Forsberg 2001-02 20 27 1.35
Joe Sakic 2002-03 7 9 1.29
Peter Forsberg 2002-03 7 8 1.14
Joe Sakic 2003-04 11 12 1.09
Peter Forsberg 2003-04 11 11 1.00
Joe Sakic 2007-08 10 10 1.00
Peter Forsberg 2007-08 7 5 0.71

Colorado career stats:
Regular season:
Sakic 1.21
Forsberg 1.27

Playoffs:
Sakic 1.10
Forsberg 1.13

The difference of 0.03-0.06 of a PPG is about 2-4 points in a full season, if that. And since Forsberg can't stay healthy enough to implement it over a full season because the method he uses cripples his ability to stay healthy, it really becomes irrelevant.


AGAIN, I voted Forsberg's peak by a small margin. But these graphs show that Sakic was not more than a small margin behind. You love bashing any and all Canadian players and demeaning them, trying to say he is not even comparable to your precious Swedes, when in fact, the facts are against you.


Last edited by Dark Shadows: 08-12-2008 at 05:36 PM.
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Old
08-12-2008, 08:00 PM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thornton_19 View Post
Sakic was also the most important forward both years Colorado won the cup. One Conn Smythe and one Conn Smythe Runner up to 0.
What are you basing that on exactly?
By that, then Forsberg would been runner up at least 2 times.
Both times when he won the playoffs in scoring without even playing the finals, it's not his fault the others on the team failed to deliver.

And if Forsberg hadn't played in the 2nd rond against the Kings in the 2000-01 playoffs the Avs wouldn't have gone any further. He was the leading scorer before the spleen accident, and against the Kings he had 8 points on the 12 goals Colorado scored in the first 6 games that series (He was also on the ice on 11 of them)

And most people seems to think that Forsberg's peak was the year he won the Hart.
I would say his peak was in the late 90's (~1997-99)


Last edited by DayWalk3r: 08-12-2008 at 08:10 PM.
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Old
08-12-2008, 08:10 PM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSF1921 View Post
1a) Sakic
1b) Forsberg
2) Sundin
Agreed^

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Old
08-12-2008, 10:08 PM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DayWalk3r View Post
What are you basing that on exactly?
By that, then Forsberg would been runner up at least 2 times.
Both times when he won the playoffs in scoring without even playing the finals, it's not his fault the others on the team failed to deliver.

And if Forsberg hadn't played in the 2nd rond against the Kings in the 2000-01 playoffs the Avs wouldn't have gone any further. He was the leading scorer before the spleen accident, and against the Kings he had 8 points on the 12 goals Colorado scored in the first 6 games that series (He was also on the ice on 11 of them)

And most people seems to think that Forsberg's peak was the year he won the Hart.
I would say his peak was in the late 90's (~1997-99)
When I say Runner up, I meant that Sakic was the undisputed Smythe Runner up to Roy, who took it that year they won. With his game winning goals, and his team leading 26 points(Forsberg was on pace to tie that)

I am certainly aware of Forsberg leading scoring without winning, but not on cup winning years(Which is what I was referring to).

Sakic has proven himself every bit as clutch as Forsberg, and just as often overshadowed Forsberg's scoring as Peter did to him. Also, if you check closely, Sakic had the same amount of points as Forsberg at this point. More goals, less assists. At least according to the stats from hockey_summary_Project


Anyways, the point is moot. Bilros insists on flaming anyone and anything Canadian, and demeaning their accomlishments. I voted for Forsberg by a hair, but his silly aggravating posts on how inferior Sakic is to Forsberg when it so obviously a close decision grates on everyones nerves.


Last edited by Dark Shadows: 08-12-2008 at 10:24 PM.
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Old
08-12-2008, 10:10 PM
  #107
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missed the in prime part so i accidentally voted Sundin. but i verbally take that back

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08-12-2008, 10:30 PM
  #108
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How can you not vote for Sakic? Saying that Forsberg is better is like saying Forsberg is almost as good as Yzerman

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08-13-2008, 06:32 PM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luongofan View Post
How can you not vote for Sakic? Saying that Forsberg is better is like saying Forsberg is almost as good as Yzerman
Prime : The period of greatest prosperity or productivity.

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08-13-2008, 09:07 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shooter Mcgavin 21 View Post
Prime : The period of greatest prosperity or productivity.
That would be peak, and generally, we go by best year and best playoff for Peak discussion.

Prime Sakic vs Forsberg is a landslide in Sakic's favor because his prime has stretched for 15 years of very productive hockey, while Forsberg's has been spent injured more often.

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08-13-2008, 10:34 PM
  #111
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Peter Forsberg

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08-13-2008, 10:38 PM
  #112
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Since we're selecting a player based on a stint of dominant play (no matter how long or short), I'd like to cast a write-in vote for Keith Primeau. I've never seen a player dominate the way he did in the 2004 playoffs.

Otherwise, I'll take Forsberg for a game or playoff series, but Sakic for a full season/full playoff stint.

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08-13-2008, 10:48 PM
  #113
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08-14-2008, 04:54 PM
  #114
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Forsberg. People say Forsberg benefited by playing with Sakic but they both helped each other. Forsberg faced the oppositions top pairing on a nightly basis and had to deal with the other teams best defensive players ie. Guy Carbonneau, Kris Draper, are two that come to mind. Hes been a bonafide superstar from his early yrs in Modo to the present day even though hes pretty much playing on one leg.

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08-14-2008, 05:18 PM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ice berg slim View Post
Forsberg. People say Forsberg benefited by playing with Sakic but they both helped each other. Forsberg faced the oppositions top pairing on a nightly basis and had to deal with the other teams best defensive players ie. Guy Carbonneau, Kris Draper, are two that come to mind. Hes been a bonafide superstar from his early yrs in Modo to the present day even though hes pretty much playing on one leg.
One of the better quotes lately.

They definitely helped each other equally. I disagree about him facing the top defensive pairings/checking lines more though. They split those defenses equally to stop both lines. Sakic averaged 2-3 more minutes a game.

Keep in mind I did vote for Forsberg by a hair here.

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08-14-2008, 06:49 PM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thornton_19 View Post
One of the better quotes lately.

They definitely helped each other equally. I disagree about him facing the top defensive pairings/checking lines more though. They split those defenses equally to stop both lines. Sakic averaged 2-3 more minutes a game.

Keep in mind I did vote for Forsberg by a hair here.
people saying Forsberg benefited from sakic must not have watched Forsberg play a lot.

Forsberg has generally had worse linemates than sakic had during his career in Colorado.

When Colorado lost Kamensky and Lemiuex, Forsberg got to play with the likes of Ville Nieminen, Steve Reinprecht, Yelle for a while. He made those players look a lot better of course, especially Nieminen who was never succesfully after colorado.

Also, I have a stanley cup video at home, when they interview Hitchcock during conference finals between avs-dallas, how he wrote in the locking room that dallas must stop forsberg.

I also remember a playoffs season from ESPN NHL2NITE where Barry Melrose (yeah i know) said that he hasnt seen someone dominate the playoffs as forsberg did since gretzky played

Some People forget what kind of respect Forsberg had with him in his prime.

Sakic has the better career, but Forsberg's peak was more scary for the oposition.

I also believe that the season Forsberg won his Hart, it was not his best season. His best season was 1996-1997 when he was on a furious pace in the scoring until he suffered a serious knee injury which spoiled his season. I believe it was Todd Marchant who kneed him.


btw I had to post my favorite Forsberg moment which is this


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08-14-2008, 07:05 PM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WJCfan View Post
people saying Forsberg benefited from sakic must not have watched Forsberg play a lot.

Forsberg has generally had worse linemates than sakic had during his career in Colorado.

When Colorado lost Kamensky and Lemiuex, Forsberg got to play with the likes of Ville Nieminen, Steve Reinprecht, Yelle for a while. He made those players look a lot better of course, especially Nieminen who was never succesfully after colorado.

Also, I have a stanley cup video at home, when they interview Hitchcock during conference finals between avs-dallas, how he wrote in the locking room that dallas must stop forsberg.

I also remember a playoffs season from ESPN NHL2NITE where Barry Melrose (yeah i know) said that he hasnt seen someone dominate the playoffs as forsberg did since gretzky played

Some People forget what kind of respect Forsberg had with him in his prime.

Sakic has the better career, but Forsberg's peak was more scary for the oposition.

I also believe that the season Forsberg won his Hart, it was not his best season. His best season was 1996-1997 when he was on a furious pace in the scoring until he suffered a serious knee injury which spoiled his season. I believe it was Todd Marchant who kneed him.
Kamensky and Lemieux played with Forsberg on the "united nations line" or the "Barrage a trois", and they were generally equal or better to linemates Sakic had.

After those two left, Sakic got Tanguay, Forsberg got Hejduk. Even Steven. Tanguay was a better playmaker and complimented Sakic, while Hejduk was a better goal scorer, complimenting Forsberg

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08-14-2008, 07:14 PM
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thornton_19 View Post
Kamensky and Lemieux played with Forsberg on the "united nations line" or the "Barrage a trois", and they were generally equal or better to linemates Sakic had.

After those two left, Sakic got Tanguay, Forsberg got Hejduk. Even Steven. Tanguay was a better playmaker and complimented Sakic, while Hejduk was a better goal scorer, complimenting Forsberg
No no, Sakic was the one who played with Tanguay and Hejduk when those entered colorado. Forsberg played with Drury, Nieminen and a bit with Reinprecth. Sakic was still with Tanguay and Hejduk back then.

It was just in the later seasons Forsberg started playing with Tangs and Duke.

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08-14-2008, 07:39 PM
  #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WJCfan View Post
No no, Sakic was the one who played with Tanguay and Hejduk when those entered colorado. Forsberg played with Drury, Nieminen and a bit with Reinprecth. Sakic was still with Tanguay and Hejduk back then.

It was just in the later seasons Forsberg started playing with Tangs and Duke.
Hejduk played with Forsberg from 1999 forward. he played with Sakic the year Forsberg sat out or when Forsberg was injured, but was put right back with Forsberg when Forsberg returned every single time.

They complimented each other perfectly. I watched almost every single game of the 2000-01 season because it was Bourque's fading chance to win a cup, and I watched numerous games before that time. Hejduk was with Forsberg a lot.

Oh Reinprecht had a few runs with Forsberg. So did Deadmarsh, who was great when healthy. I do Remember Drury getting juggled between Forsberg and Sakic. Fine for both guys as he was a good scorer and two way player at the time


Last edited by Dark Shadows: 08-14-2008 at 09:48 PM.
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