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Old
08-15-2008, 02:13 PM
  #26
mikedifr
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
As ever, you need to contextualize that rationale a bit more. The thing about receivers is that a very good one alters the defense, where as a good or mediocre one won't draw coverage alterations. Similar to the impact of Deion Sanders on a defense...if you have him on one side it frees up the safety to shade the other side of the D and make it tougher to throw everywhere on the field.

Not to mention the more simple point that in the one and done format of the SB...it's not the best indicator of things. Play last years game 10 times and the Pats win 9 of 'em. Same goes for the first Pats SB win.

Giants...Plaxico ain't too bad, especially in the red zone.
Colts...pretty good WR corps, btw.
Steelers...pretty good receivers, if under appreciated.

But, then again, one can just look at the vast difference in scary factor the Eagles offense had when they had TO lining up for them.
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Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
The McNabb hate is a perfect example of what we are talking about in the Phillies thread. Career 59% Comp percentage, 25,400 yards, 171 TD, only 79 INT, almost 3,000 yards and 24 TD rushing, and only 37 fumbles lost in 108 regular season games over 9 seasons.

He's had a borderline Hall of Fame career, but many Eagles fans can't wait to see his back. It'll be quite a while before the Eagles have a QB as talented as McNabb again.
I really dont think anyone wants this to turn into the McNabb debate that last year's eagles thread became but I would be glad to do it again if you guys want....I have all the backup to my arguments saved in files on my old computer from years of having this debate with people but here is high level response to hopefully most of what everyone was saying

1) As I mentioned before, his completion % has been 60% once, maybe twice in his career, not very good at all for a QB in a dink and dunk offense most of his career

2) He has only had one "elite" receiver his career here, however, people I think make a HUGE deal out of some of the others guys he has had on this team. Brown and Curtis are not bad, after all, they both put up similar numbers to Deion Branch did on the Patriots. Thrash was trash but Johnson and Small were both 1000 yard receivers before they came here and Pinkston serves a purpose when you have a #1 on the other side. Also, when debating receivers, you cant discount Westbrook who is a the type of weapon most of these other teams that have won would have wished for

3) I have the stats to prove that McNabb has beat up on all the crappy teams over his whole career and against the tougher teams is below .500, I will post them again if needed but you guys can go back and look through last year's thread to see them. Taking the TO year as an example, we beat 1 or 2 teams with winning records and everyone in our division was beyond dreadful that year. Take a look at his stats in those NFC championships and the Superbowl (boy did he choke in that one)

4) As for the receiver comment, I will give everyone Indy, although I dont remember Harrison being very good in those playoffs. They won with the running game if I remember correctly. NE, other than last year where they didnt win, they have had mediocre at best wide receivers other than Branch who is good, not great.

5) The receivers looked fine when Garcia was the QB

6) McNabb in many seasons, other than last year where he was recovering from injury would start off and have 4-5 huge games and then be average the rest of the season, not to mention how many interceptions at inoportune times he throws and then goes walking off the field laughing...

7) Any player that has the same weaknesses in his game 10 years into his career that he had the first couple seasons is not great...he should stop spending his entire offseason trying to make himself look like a linebacker and just take snaps and throw the ball through a tire.

Reid is a big factor in the eagles as well and is arguably a bigger reason than McNabb for their inconsistentcy and failures in the big games, however, like it or not, the QB is the "leader" of the team and is the one that is supposed to make his team better. Yes he needs help but the Eagles have had plenty of support around him, absent an elite receiver which is not needed to win a SB, and what do they have to show for it in rings??? NONE

Not to mention I will completely throw out statistical analysis and just argue that regardless of McNabb's physical ability, he doesnt have the mental make up to be a champion....up until last year he was still crying over the draft, black on black crime, and now the guy recently was crying that he wished he had TO back and was able to make it work.......The effect Garcia had on the personality of this team, regardless of the difference in play style was clear cut evidence that this team was crying out for a leader....People underrate the effect TO had on the team outside of giving McNabb a better target to throw to.

To sum it up in one sentence, McNabb need an ELITE receiver to make him come even close to being able to win a championship, great QBs make everyone around them better and make good players great (Favre, Brady, etc.). McNabb is simply a good QB (who has nothing but slop to compare to him in recent franchise history at his position so he by default may be the best in the franchise's history) but he is not great. Until he proves otherwise, my position on him is right.

Hey, I will gladly sit here and have this debate ad nauseum but it is going to serously annoy anyone that doesnt want to get involved, it is going to bog down large amounts of the thread and it will never end. I suggest we just leave it alone...but I will still watch every game this year and watch him with a microscope if anyone wants to do this at any point

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08-15-2008, 02:30 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by mikedifr View Post
3) I have the stats to prove that McNabb has beat up on all the crappy teams over his whole career and against the tougher teams is below .500, I will post them again if needed but you guys can go back and look through last year's thread to see them. Taking the TO year as an example, we beat 1 or 2 teams with winning records and everyone in our division was beyond dreadful that year. Take a look at his stats in those NFC championships and the Superbowl (boy did he choke in that one)
Everyone beats up on the crappy teams and struggles against the good teams...that's why crappy teams have crappy records...and good teams have good records. This is along the arguments of complaining about baseball teams struggling against good pitchers...that's why they're good pitchers.

Quote:
4) As for the receiver comment, I will give everyone Indy, although I dont remember Harrison being very good in those playoffs. They won with the running game if I remember correctly. NE, other than last year where they didnt win, they have had mediocre at best wide receivers other than Branch who is good, not great.
Because everyone and their mother was so damn scared of their receivers that they backed off the line of scrimmage and basically gave them 4 yards every time they handed the ball off uncontested...and beyond Harrison, you have Reggie Wayne who would be a no. 1 on 80% of the leagues teams.

I think the point you really need to dwell on in discussing the Eagles is that it's hard to have great success at a highly competitive level (aka against good teams) if you're running a pass happy offense without a very good receiver (thus why the Eagles should have been running the ball more all these years).

Quote:
5) The receivers looked fine when Garcia was the QB
You act like the Eagles haven't won...and haven't scored a fair number of points in years with McNabb...

Quote:
6) McNabb in many seasons, other than last year where he was recovering from injury would start off and have 4-5 huge games and then be average the rest of the season, not to mention how many interceptions at inoportune times he throws and then goes walking off the field laughing...
Same goes for most QBs...the fact that McNabb is among the leaders in % of games with a rating above 80 in his tenure should give pause to your belief that there is a large pool of someone better out there. You bring up Garcia...what the hell has he ever won?

The problem with your statistical breakdown of McNabb is that you treat him in a vacuum and don't compare him against the rest of the league. You also devolve everything about the team onto him alone at some level. If you want to draw a true analysis of how good McNabb is you can't sit there and simply focus on what he does alone...you need to look around.

So, I would suggest putting yourself in the shoes of other fans around the league for a few moments and then ponder how poor the QB play of McNabb has really been. The list of QBs you'd rather have is much smaller than you think.

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08-15-2008, 02:40 PM
  #28
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Just to bring the statistics on McNabb into light...after removing Peyton and Brady, here is a look at QBs performance over the last two seasons.

80 as the average QB rating, here are a look at the next 10 QBs and their starts:

Quote:
Rank Quarterback Starts Games Under 80 Percentage
1. Romo 28 7 25.0
2. McNabb 24 8 33.3
T3. Palmer 32 11 34.4
T3. Brees 32 11 34.4
5. Hasselbeck 28 10 35.7
6. Roethlisberger 30 11 36.7
T7. Rivers 32 13 40.6
T7. Favre 32 13 40.6
9. Bulger 28 13 46.4
10. Manning 32 19 59.4
Median Passer Rating:

Quote:
Rank Quarterback Median Passer Rating
1. Romo 102.5
2. Palmer 91.7
3. McNabb 91.5
4. Brees 91
5. Rivers 90
6. Hasselbeck 88.8
7. Roethlisberger 86.3
8. Favre 83.5
9. Bulger 80.6
10. E. Manning 75.5
Article (ESPN Insider): http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/playo..._kc&id=3198982

What's interesting about this is that Romo fairs so well, and he's also a QB that receives his fair share of criticism. Additionally, McNabb is the 2nd least likely to lay an egg start (consistency is very important in the QB position), and his median QB rating is only behind Romo (elite receiver) and Palmer (has one of the best corps in the league).

Is McNabb perfect? No. However, a replacement for McNabb is almost certain to be less effective. I will note that I'm not a huge believer in McNabb at this point purely because of his injury troubles...and unless he's gotten his step back, he's not nearly the dangerous QB he once was.

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08-16-2008, 01:12 AM
  #29
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He also has one of the highest % of the equivalent to quality starts for a pitcher over the recent past. He's obviously no Manning, but, as a Redskins fan, Eagles fans really wouldn't like the trade off from McNabb to most other QBs.
It's baffling to me just how ungrateful some Eagles fans are. I actually don't even like associating myself with them sometimes.

Whatever. Fans, even the ******* ones, owe a HEALTHY McNabb this season to see if he can make it back to being a top-tier NFL QB. If he falters, he'll be cut, the regime will stay the same, and the Kevin Kolb era will begin.

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08-16-2008, 09:12 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by socraticirony View Post
It's baffling to me just how ungrateful some Eagles fans are. I actually don't even like associating myself with them sometimes.

Whatever. Fans, even the ******* ones, owe a HEALTHY McNabb this season to see if he can make it back to being a top-tier NFL QB. If he falters, he'll be cut, the regime will stay the same, and the Kevin Kolb era will begin.
I think it's likely he's reached the point in his career where if Kolb is ready they should give serious thought to him, simply because football players definitely turn the corner with accumulated injuries and susceptibility. However, as a 'Skins fan living in Philly, it's been depressing to watch the antagonism towards McNabb and knowing that the same stuff is going on with the teams I do follow (Flyers/Phils).

If one wants to see a horror show at the QB position...look no further than what has been going on in DC. Hell, even when they have a competent and effective QB (Brad Johnson, for example) they do things like can him for a shiny new toy (Jeff George -- I protested that season and rooted for the Eagles I was so disgusted).

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08-16-2008, 09:25 AM
  #31
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The whole thing with McNabb started with the draft and has been ridiculous ever since. I'm not always right, but I'm happy to say that I was definitely against drafting Ricky Williams even though I was 11 at the time, but some of those morons had to boo Donovan, really started everything off on the wrong foot.

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08-18-2008, 01:03 PM
  #32
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NFL's Top 10 Fan Bases

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/pgStory...&photo=8358350

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08-18-2008, 01:20 PM
  #33
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Very cool article.

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08-18-2008, 01:28 PM
  #34
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Very biased article.
fixed, was kinda interesting though.

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08-18-2008, 02:08 PM
  #35
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Eagles fans most knowledgeable? Half the city hates the best QB in team history.

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08-18-2008, 02:31 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Eagles fans most knowledgeable? Half the city hates the best QB in team history.
Eagles fans are certainly good NFL fans, but a mythology has grown around the fanbase the last 8 years or so that is completely disjointed with reality. Philadelphia is a very good sports city with very rabid fans, but it isn't something particularly true of Eagles fans...as noted in discussing the Phils, they are just as prone to disappearing a bit.

NFL, however, is such a juggernaut that it's tough to notice the mountains and valleys as much...however, for this market to have had a game blacked out in the 90s speaks volumes. There are markets in the NFL where that would never happen -- for better or worse.

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08-18-2008, 02:38 PM
  #37
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Eagles fans most knowledgeable? Half the city hates the best QB in team history.
Im pretty sure alot of us love Jaws

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08-18-2008, 03:36 PM
  #38
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Eagles fans most knowledgeable? Half the city hates the best QB in team history.
Yes, but many of them still realize he is the best QB in team history. Just because he is the best at something doesn't mean you have to love him.

I believe most of the issue is that Donovan hasn't finished a whole season since 04 and that he is blamed for losing the Super Bowl in a lot of fans minds.

Whether good reasons or not, you don't have to like the guy.

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08-18-2008, 04:07 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Eagles fans are certainly good NFL fans, but a mythology has grown around the fanbase the last 8 years or so that is completely disjointed with reality. Philadelphia is a very good sports city with very rabid fans, but it isn't something particularly true of Eagles fans...as noted in discussing the Phils, they are just as prone to disappearing a bit.

NFL, however, is such a juggernaut that it's tough to notice the mountains and valleys as much...however, for this market to have had a game blacked out in the 90s speaks volumes. There are markets in the NFL where that would never happen -- for better or worse.
Yeah true, I do tend to give Philly fans a bit of a pass though because this town is just so desperate for a winner, they're really going to get behind any team that has a half-decent shot, the problem is that a lot of those Eagles teams in the 90s were just godawful.

I wouldn't rank Eagles fans as No.1 in the NFL, but I'd probably give them top-10.

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Originally Posted by ForsbergIsOdin
Im pretty sure alot of us love Jaws
Jaws was a great QB, but I'd take McNabb over him every day of the week. First of all, McNabb's career rating is 15 points higher. Secondly, McNabb is the 2nd least intercepted QB per pass attempt in NFL history which has to count for something, and finally, Jaws was a .500 QB during his time here while McNabb is 80-44 so far.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiger73549
Yes, but many of them still realize he is the best QB in team history. Just because he is the best at something doesn't mean you have to love him.

I believe most of the issue is that Donovan hasn't finished a whole season since 04 and that he is blamed for losing the Super Bowl in a lot of fans minds.

Whether good reasons or not, you don't have to like the guy.
He doesn't deserve the crap he gets, the injuries are definitely a worry, but he shouldn't be hated for it. As for the SB, it's amazing how much McNabb gets blamed when Reid in the O-line should be blamed a lot more.

I remember remarking to friends at the time that it would be a miracle if Donovan made it through the game because our O-line was getting absolutely dominated by NE's defensive front and the coaching staff just flat-out refused to run the ball. Donovan dropped back nearly 60 times in that game, that's an exact recipe for getting massacred by NE's front 7 and that was exactly what happened, McNabb took way too much punishment.

I place the most blame for that SB on Andy Reid who had 2 weeks to prepare for that game and was comprehensively outcoached. Of course, I've been screaming at this team to run the ball for the last 5 years and I'll probably do it again this year.

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08-18-2008, 04:18 PM
  #40
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I'm not much of a football fan, but i like McNabb.

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08-18-2008, 04:50 PM
  #41
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Tony Hunt was moved to fullback today. Andy said it gives him a better chance of making the team.

Well we had 4 rb's last year, Westy, buck, moats and mahe

I guess he wants to go 3 this year with westy, booker and buck
so hopefully hunt can win FB job

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08-18-2008, 05:45 PM
  #42
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Well it would make him a dual-purpose back. They've been able to make Westbrook into a receiver out of the backfield, so maybe Hunt can be the power back, just as a fullback.

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08-18-2008, 05:52 PM
  #43
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Well it would make him a dual-purpose back. They've been able to make Westbrook into a receiver out of the backfield, so maybe Hunt can be the power back, just as a fullback.
Westbrook came to the Eagles as a good receiver...they didn't make him that.

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08-18-2008, 06:00 PM
  #44
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Westbrook came to the Eagles as a good receiver...they didn't make him that.
They didn't make him that but he also wasn't supposed to be an all-pro, game breaking type player either.

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08-18-2008, 06:38 PM
  #45
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They didn't make him that but he also wasn't supposed to be an all-pro, game breaking type player either.
Well, he was drafted at the very least as a third down back who could catch the ball out of the backfield and return kicks...I'm not sure what the fact that they discovered he could do that very well, plus run the ball a bit has to do with the Eagles necessarily making him into something he already was.

They made a good draft pick...

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08-18-2008, 07:06 PM
  #46
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Well, he was drafted at the very least as a third down back who could catch the ball out of the backfield and return kicks...I'm not sure what the fact that they discovered he could do that very well, plus run the ball a bit has to do with the Eagles necessarily making him into something he already was.

They made a good draft pick...
It's very significant. The competition he was playing wasn't up to par since he wasn't in D-IA, let alone having to make the transition most players do. Regardless, he's a running back drafted as a running back (and unless you're a massive physical specimen, if you can't catch the ball out of the backfield, you're not in the NFL anyways) regardless of what else he did and has to learn the intricacies of an NFL offense.

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08-18-2008, 07:19 PM
  #47
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It's very significant. The competition he was playing wasn't up to par since he wasn't in D-IA, let alone having to make the transition most players do. Regardless, he's a running back drafted as a running back (and unless you're a massive physical specimen, if you can't catch the ball out of the backfield, you're not in the NFL anyways) regardless of what else he did and has to learn the intricacies of an NFL offense.
...whatever.

You said:

Quote:
They've been able to make Westbrook into a receiver out of the backfield...
Unless they started coaching him in HS, that statement was false. I think the guy may own a college record for receptions out of the backfield. His main marketable skill coming into the draft was...the ability to catch the ball out of the backfield, as people questioned whether he was big enough to take the wear and tear of carrying the ball on a regular basis.

Eagles are a very good coaching staff, but Westbrook was the exact same type of player in college that he has been in the pros.

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08-18-2008, 07:21 PM
  #48
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I think we both know where this is going...

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08-18-2008, 08:00 PM
  #49
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I am not trying to get hopes up, but....

Chris Mortenson of ESPN says that Anquan Boldin of the Cardinals demanded a tradec after not getting the contract he wants. He is making 2.5 mil this year and wants a deal similar to Larry Fitzgerald(4 years 40 mil). he then lists Cowboys and Eagles as possible suitors.

Not likely but would be great

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08-18-2008, 09:25 PM
  #50
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I am not trying to get hopes up, but....

Chris Mortenson of ESPN says that Anquan Boldin of the Cardinals demanded a tradec after not getting the contract he wants. He is making 2.5 mil this year and wants a deal similar to Larry Fitzgerald(4 years 40 mil). he then lists Cowboys and Eagles as possible suitors.

Not likely but would be great
Hasn't Boldin been demanding out of Arizona for months now? I'd gladly give up one of our #1 picks in next year's draft for him. Now there's a guy who makes this team an actual Super Bowl contender.

1. Boldin
2. Curtis
3. Brown
4. Jackson
5. Avant/Baskett
6. Lewis

The Cowboys getting him would be damn near cataclysmic. Ok, that's hyperbole, but you get what I'm saying.

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