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The Everything Mats Sundin Thread

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Old
08-17-2008, 09:02 AM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
Sakic, Forsberg, Hejduk, Tanguay, Liles, and Foote were all lifelong Avs. Barnaby and Gratton were nowhere near all-stars, similar thing with Konowalchuk.

That's not a really good point using the players you picked out.
Yeah, that's true. For whatever reason, though, the chemistry was sporadic. I don't think Granato found a single, consistent line combination that lasted through the year. The defensive pairings saw the most changes, though, with Morris and Skoula out and Boughner, Vaananen and Sauer in. The team never found a way to run on all cylinders and the lifelong Avs were a part of that.

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08-17-2008, 09:32 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by alucard View Post
http://www.nypost.com/seven/08172008...way_124830.htm

It appears Brooks is also on the Eklund bandwagon, but is thinking more like $5-7 million

Rangers and the Flyers are his too choices?

Sather wont like passing up Mats. He will loathe passing him up only to see him sign with a division rival.

I think the Flyers have less cap space left than the Rangers though. NHL numbers actually has them over the cap as of today. Do they have some contracts to be bought out?

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08-17-2008, 09:47 AM
  #78
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Brooks talks about trading Rosival now to make room for Sundin, although Rosi is about $1 million over paid his contract isn't the prolbem, the Vooroos & rissmiller signings mad little sense to me, did we really need both these guys? The guy who never should have been signed was Redden. That contract will haunt us for years to come.

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08-17-2008, 10:01 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by The Thomas J. View Post
The guy who never should have been signed was Redden. That contract will haunt us for years to come.
I'd much rather have Redden than Rozsival.

Anyway, why crucify the guy before he even steps foot on the ice? If Renney's system can make Marek Malik a passable 1st-pair defenseman for the better part of three years, something tells me Redden will be just fine. He's the best first-passer in the game, and he legitimately fills the role of PP QB, something this team has been missing since #2 was traded. And he also has a very good relationship with Perry Pearn, who I'm sure was instrumental in bringing him here.

At the very least, give the guy a chance. If he's expected to fail, it's more likely that he will, and the reverse is also true.

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08-17-2008, 10:43 AM
  #80
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why do people want to get rid of players like gomez, drury, and redden who quite a few teams would love to have just one of them.....

i understand people wanting sundin, but why is it people want to get sundin for the core of this team.....get sundin for 1 or 2 years and then have to turn the team over again when he leaves.....there is a lot to say for chemistry and having to turn over prominent players every season is not a good way to go about winning consistently.....would i love to have sundin for say 4-5 million.....absolutely....like i have said, trading prucha and waiving rissmiller gives the rangers about 2.6 million to play with and then double it like they did with shanahn and that is 5.2 million to give mats.......

drury-gomez-zherdev
naslund-sundin-sjostrom
callahan-dubinsky-dawes
voros-betts-orr

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08-17-2008, 10:57 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
why do people want to get rid of players like gomez, drury, and redden who quite a few teams would love to have just one of them.....
Because some people actually value cap space more than good players, and are operating under the ridiculous assumption that some elite player will be able to be had via free agency anytime in the forseeable future.

People compare someone like Gomez's salary to someone on the elite level who makes around the same, and they complain because Gomez isn't as good as said player. What they fail to recognize is that every team can't have a Crosby or Ovechkin, and that those teams are forced to settle for the next best thing, but are still forced into paying them the same money those elite guys get, due to simple supply & demand and the whatever the market dictates as that player's price. That's the key that some people simply don't realize, that Gomez, in essense, is our Crosby, because there is no Crosby-like player available.

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08-17-2008, 10:57 AM
  #82
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If Sundin really wants to sign here for only $2 million, all the Rangers have to do is trade Prucha, because he will be the odd man out of the top 6. Someone from the bottom 6 will more then likely be waived as well. I'm thinking it will be Orr.

drury-gomez-zherdev
naslund-sundin-dawes
Korpido-Dubinsky-Callahan
Rissmiller-Betts-Sjostrom
Voros

Those are some solid lines, imo.

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08-17-2008, 10:59 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by UAGoalieGuy View Post
Someone from the bottom 6 will more then likely be waived as well. I'm thinking it will be Orr.
You really think Orr would be waived? He's one of the top heavyweights in the league, and he's probably the only guy on this team who can fight and actually win.

I don't see it happening.

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08-17-2008, 11:02 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
if Gomez plays each season like last season, and if the cap at least remains constant, I think you'll find his $7-something million to be quite reasonable. Not a bargain, not very expensive, but quite reasonable. The question for him this season is how does he fare as a top line centerman and not a second line centerman playing behind the man on whom other teams keyed.
I often agree with you Fletch, but in this instant, I just don't. I really don't think very much of Gomez's game. He's an incredibly predictable player with his solo rush down the ice which more often than not ends with him losing the puck at the other team's blueline. As I pointed out earlier, the guy has surpassed the 20 goal mark ONCE. He's not an elite player. He's a great 2nd line center, but he's not a franchise player.

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Originally Posted by Radek27 View Post
Gomez and Drury are good players, but I don't consider them GREAT. The thing is they are signed to contracts that should be given out to GREAT players.
Precisely. Add in Redden's contract, and you have created a situation where you can't acquire the necessary GREAT players because you have no room on the cap. The Rangers only have one great player, Henrik Lundqvist. Unfortunately, you usually don't win with just one great player and a few good ones.

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Originally Posted by nyrJeff View Post
If Renney's system can make Marek Malik a passable 1st-pair defenseman for the better part of three years, something tells me Redden will be just fine. He's the best first-passer in the game, and he legitimately fills the role of PP QB.
A) Marek Malik wasn't a passable 1st-pair defenseman. Sure, he got more animosity than he deserved, but he never looked like a top blueliner. For that matter, neither did Rozsival. The Rangers play an extremely defensive system that involves the forwards contributing defensively a lot, plus they have an elite goaltender. That can hide some of the problems on the blueline quite well.

B) The best first-passer in the game? Based on what? I will argue that Redden was never an elite offensive defenseman, but even if you want to say that he was, he no longer is. I can name plenty of defensemen in this league who are more effective offensively than Redden is now. Would love to be wrong, would love to see him be a great player for this team, but if he doesn't live up to expectations, and I don't think he will, then he will be an even worse signing than Gomez and Drury. They're not great, but they're good. Redden hasn't even been that lately.

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Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
why do people want to get rid of players like gomez, drury, and redden who quite a few teams would love to have just one of them.....

i understand people wanting sundin, but why is it people want to get sundin for the core of this team.....get sundin for 1 or 2 years and then have to turn the team over again when he leaves.....there is a lot to say for chemistry and having to turn over prominent players every season is not a good way to go about winning consistently..
Quite a few teams would probably prefer to have Sundin over any of Gomez, Drury or Redden, too. He's a better player than any of them.

The core of this team is the problem. Of the three highest paid skaters on the team, none of them are franchise players. How are you going to win anything like that? The Rangers don't have a single legitimate first line forward on their team right now. Maybe Zherdev, if he continues to improve. Gomez and Drury are second line players, and so is Naslund at this stage in his career.

What good is chemistry between prominent players when the team doesn't really have any?

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08-17-2008, 11:02 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by nyrJeff View Post
You really think Orr would be waived? He's one of the top heavyweights in the league, and he's probably the only guy on this team who can fight and actually win.

I don't see it happening.
I don't know for sure, but isn't Voros a decent fighter as well? I thought I read something to that extent when the Rangers signed him. He can skate and chip in here and there as well.

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08-17-2008, 11:10 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Precisely. Add in Redden's contract, and you have created a situation where you can't acquire the necessary GREAT players because you have no room on the cap. The Rangers only have one great player, Henrik Lundqvist. Unfortunately, you usually don't win with just one great player and a few good ones.
This is precisely the fallacy I just referred to. What "great" player would you expect to acquire? What "great" player would their current team give up? What "great" player will ever reach free agency?

The answer to all of the above is, more likely than not, none.

Great players don't reach free agency anymore, because if the current team knows it can't keep that player, like (probably) Kovalchuk, for instance, that player will most definitely be traded in his contract year, and will more likely than not sign with the team he's traded to.

So IF by some miracle one of these players is to become available, which I don't see happening anytime in the forseeable future, at that point you deal with the cap ramifications. You buy someone out and take the extra cap hit, or you trade someone, or you waive someone. What you don't do is "save" cap space hoping that some elite player will become available down the road, because then you're likely to be left with your thumb in your arse.

As long as the team has the means to move salary if necessary (which the Rangers do, in every player but Drury), there's no problem spending up to the cap every year.

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08-17-2008, 11:11 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by UAGoalieGuy View Post
I don't know for sure, but isn't Voros a decent fighter as well? I thought I read something to that extent when the Rangers signed him. He can skate and chip in here and there as well.
Voros is an awful fighter, he loses almost every single time. Yeah, he tries, but Orr is a legit heavyweight and his fists actually scare people, especially after the Fedoruk incident. Voros isn't going to scare anyone.

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08-17-2008, 11:14 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by nyrJeff View Post
Voros is an awful fighter, he loses almost every single time. Yeah, he tries, but Orr is a legit heavyweight and his fists actually scare people, especially after the Fedoruk incident. Voros isn't going to scare anyone.
Well at least I got the "he fights" part right. Probably won't have to waive Orr or anyone for that matter because if the Rangers trade Prucha, they won't have 3 extra forwards, only two.

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08-17-2008, 11:19 AM
  #89
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What it comes down to is that if the Rangers were able to sign Sundin to a cap friendly contract, the Rangers go from being a potential threat in the east to one of the favorites to winning the east. An upgraded offense with very good depth. A defense that is improved from last season. Then Lundqvist in net.

Sunding isn't past him prime or the typical player the Rangers throw money at like the Ranger teams of old. He can score on his own. He can make amazing passes and he's a very hard worker. He wants to win and is a great leader on and off the ice.

I can only hope he wants to sign with the Rangers and at a discount. He's the type of player the Rangers need to put them over the top, imo.

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08-17-2008, 11:19 AM
  #90
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You know, I like Redden, and I remain optomistic that he'll turn his game around in New York, but right now, I'm just thinkin' "If we didn't sign Redden, we'd have room to get Sundin here, possibly at a discount".

That kinda sucks.

And if Sundin is going to sign anywhere for 2m, I reckon it will be in Detroit. I think Sundin is the kinda guy who, if he signed in Detroit, he'd love it there so much, they play a style of game that suits him perfectly, he'd end up playing there for a few more years, instead of making one last run at a Cup this year, and calling it quits.

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08-17-2008, 11:20 AM
  #91
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I sometimes really hate these self-proclaimed experts. They're almost 100% wrong on EVERY issue.

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Assuming Sundin would be willing to play for between $5-7M, the Blueshirts would almost certainly have to move defenseman Michal Rozsival, who re-signed on July 1 for $5M per for four years.
WHY would the Rangers "certainly" have to move Rozsival? He pulled that one out of a hat. Because his salary matches what Sundin would fetch? SO WHAT? The Rangers would 100000000% certainly NOT move Rozsival because he and Redden are the young veteran backbone of the defense corp. Rozsival is going to be here for a long time.

Why wouldn't it be that the Rangers certianly move Rissmiller and Voros's HORRIBLE 1 mil (each) contracts? Two guys who have NEVER produced squat in the NHL at 1 mil a piece would be safe, but Rozsival, despite having a poor second half still put up close to career numbers, would be certainly gone? ZERO logic here. by Brooks, AS ALWAYS.

If ANYONE gets moved it would be Prucha (unfortunately), Jamtin, Voros, and Rissmiller. With the later two getting out right released or sent to Hartford. And would probably mean that Korpikoski is held back in Hartford due to his contract amount.

Brooks is always wrong. Always. He is equally as clueless as Eklund.

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08-17-2008, 11:24 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by PukkuMikku View Post
I sometimes really hate these self-proclaimed experts. They're almost 100% wrong on EVERY issue.



WHY would the Rangers "certainly" have to move Rozsival? He pulled that one out of a hat. Because his salary matches what Sundin would fetch? SO WHAT? The Rangers would 100000000% certainly NOT move Rozsival because he and Redden are the young veteran backbone of the defense corp. Rozsival is going to be here for a long time.

Why wouldn't it be that the Rangers certianly move Rissmiller and Voros's HORRIBLE 1 mil (each) contracts? Two guys who have NEVER produced squat in the NHL at 1 mil a piece would be safe, but Rozsival, despite having a poor second half still put up close to career numbers, would be certainly gone? ZERO logic here. by Brooks, AS ALWAYS.

If ANYONE gets moved it would be Prucha (unfortunately), Jamtin, Voros, and Rissmiller. With the later two getting out right released or sent to Hartford. And would probably mean that Korpikoski is held back in Hartford due to his contract amount.

Brooks is always wrong. Always. He is equally as clueless as Eklund.
From what i've read from people on the Sharks board, Rissmiller is a very very good intangible player. He's a very hard worker and a very good bottom 6 player. If I remember right they said he's a very good PK'er as well.

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08-17-2008, 11:26 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by UAGoalieGuy View Post
If Sundin really wants to sign here for only $2 million, all the Rangers have to do is trade Prucha, because he will be the odd man out of the top 6. Someone from the bottom 6 will more then likely be waived as well. I'm thinking it will be Orr.

drury-gomez-zherdev
naslund-sundin-dawes
Korpido-Dubinsky-Callahan
Rissmiller-Betts-Sjostrom
Voros

Those are some solid lines, imo.
Fritsche?

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08-17-2008, 11:27 AM
  #94
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Fritsche?
I knew I forgot someone haha. Slot him in on the 3rd, replacing Korpido. I knew someone would lose a spot if the Rangers signed Sundin, and that would unfortunately be Korpido.

So it would be:

Drury-Gomez-Zherdev
Naslund-Sundin-Dawes
Fritsche-Dubinsky-Callahan
Rissmiller-Betts-Sjstrom

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08-17-2008, 11:36 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by nyrJeff View Post
This is precisely the fallacy I just referred to. What "great" player would you expect to acquire? What "great" player would their current team give up? What "great" player will ever reach free agency?

The answer to all of the above is, more likely than not, none.

Great players don't reach free agency anymore, because if the current team knows it can't keep that player, like (probably) Kovalchuk, for instance, that player will most definitely be traded in his contract year, and will more likely than not sign with the team he's traded to.

So IF by some miracle one of these players is to become available, which I don't see happening anytime in the forseeable future, at that point you deal with the cap ramifications. You buy someone out and take the extra cap hit, or you trade someone, or you waive someone. What you don't do is "save" cap space hoping that some elite player will become available down the road, because then you're likely to be left with your thumb in your arse.

As long as the team has the means to move salary if necessary (which the Rangers do, in every player but Drury), there's no problem spending up to the cap every year.
I have no problem with spending to the cap every year, and I never said I did. My problem is when that spending is done in an irresponsible manner, as in signing three players to huge contracts when none of them are worthy of it.

As far as great players hitting free agency, you're right, they usually don't hit free agency. And you're also correct in the sense that they often get traded before their current contract expires.

The difference is that when the Nashville Predators or Columbus Blue Jackets or some other small market team acquires a guy at the deadline, it's not likely the player will want to stay there. The same is not true with the Rangers.

Instead of Gomez and Redden, the Rangers could be in play for Bouwmeester and Kovalchuk over the course of the next two seasons instead of being stuck in mediocrity.

And, keep in mind, when a guy gets dealt at the deadline and chooses not to re-sign with his team, ala Hossa, that player DOES become a UFA. The Rangers, if they have available cap room, will always be a prime destination for free agents. You never want to hamstring your team with too many bad contracts that prevent you from competing for the best talent.

I think this team is going to regret Gomez and Redden for a long time, just like the Flyers are going to regret the Briere signing.

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08-17-2008, 11:53 AM
  #96
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Instead of Gomez and Redden, the Rangers could be in play for Bouwmeester and Kovalchuk over the course of the next two seasons instead of being stuck in mediocrity.
Could be in play is the key. There's no guarantee. Saving cap space for something that more than likely will never come is a recipe for disaster, imo.

Further, struggling to succeed while you are saving cap space doesn't exactly entice players to want to join your team through free agency.

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08-17-2008, 11:53 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Dr Mowinckel View Post
You know, I like Redden, and I remain optomistic that he'll turn his game around in New York, but right now, I'm just thinkin' "If we didn't sign Redden, we'd have room to get Sundin here, possibly at a discount".

That kinda sucks.

And if Sundin is going to sign anywhere for 2m, I reckon it will be in Detroit. I think Sundin is the kinda guy who, if he signed in Detroit, he'd love it there so much, they play a style of game that suits him perfectly, he'd end up playing there for a few more years, instead of making one last run at a Cup this year, and calling it quits.
You don't sign Redden, you don't have the defensive depth to deal Tyutin for Zherdev.

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08-17-2008, 12:12 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by nyrJeff View Post
I guess we'll really find out how much Mats wants to star on Broadway when we see how little he is or isn't willing to play for. If he really wants to play here he'll walk into Slats' office and sign on the dotted line for $2M/1Y.

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08-17-2008, 12:39 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by RinkOnEStreet View Post
I guess we'll really find out how much Mats wants to star on Broadway when we see how little he is or isn't willing to play for. If he really wants to play here he'll walk into Slats' office and sign on the dotted line for $2M/1Y.
TSN said that his second choice is the Flyers, so if the Rangers can't offer him what he wants, I don't think he will hesitate going to the Flyers.

edit: Looks like Philly is over the cap, so adding Sundin would be tough lol. I wouldn't be totally surprised if Sundin signs for $2 mill in NY.

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08-17-2008, 12:46 PM
  #100
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i'm all about signing mats but not at the expense of drury (who is most likely going to be captain) or gomez. i dont want to have to trade one of those guys seeing how sundin could play one season here and just retire after that.

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