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Old
08-23-2008, 07:10 AM
  #26
JGRB
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Looking at it from a realistic, non-homer point of view I'd say we have one of the better defensive corps in the league, it's top 10 for sure.

Let's not forget, it was Hamrlik's first year as a Hab and although he played very well there was also a certain learning curve for him to play Carbonneau's system, he should in fact be better next year. O'Byrne should see more ice time and play 70+ games barring no injuries, which would be an improvement over the games we had Brisebois in his slot. Gorges improved drasticly over the seond half of the season and should be able to carry that through to this year.

Our biggest problem defensively is not our defenseman, it's our forwards. We don't have any true checkers or defensive specialists. I've always been against Latendresse on the 3rd line for this reason, he doesn't have a defensive bone in his body, neither did Micheal Ryder for that matter. Lapierre is O.K, but he doesn't come close to some of the true 3rd line centers of the league, Chipchura would be an upgrade in this area for sure, as long as he worked on his foot speed.

Would I have enjoyed Bob going after a true #4 defenseman to bridge our gap? Absolutely, but I have high hopes that by mid-season O'Byrne can fill the role. I'd have prefered a top-4 D over targeting Sundin however.

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Old
08-23-2008, 07:16 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Bigras View Post
This is ridiculous. You disagree that we are not the worst of the top teams defensively?

You disagree that we are not 26th on shots allowed per game?

You disagree that we are not 10th and 13th on goals against?

You think Gainey did enough to fix these problems?

And you also think that all these players, eventhought they had better seasons Bouillon and Gorges since the new NHL, that they are worst? How do you analyse players?
Perhaps you should read my post to begin with... where did I disagree with you on anything you said ? I won't repeat my post, but damn learn to read... your big and physical solutions are all worst than what we already have... you think Gainey would fix these problems with those dmen ?

Sorry for quoting this guy again...

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08-23-2008, 07:38 AM
  #28
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why cant he shut up already... I thought ignoring him made me safe but no


Ok mr I do not exist at all, i would like to remember you that being 10th and 13th in the league mean we are behing Dallas, Detroit, SJ, New York Rangers and a 4 others but Way before 20 OTHER TEAMS

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Old
08-23-2008, 07:46 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by GoHabsGo247 View Post
Our biggest problem defensively is not our defenseman, it's our forwards. We don't have any true checkers or defensive specialists. I've always been against Latendresse on the 3rd line for this reason, he doesn't have a defensive bone in his body, neither did Micheal Ryder for that matter. Lapierre is O.K, but he doesn't come close to some of the true 3rd line centers of the league, Chipchura would be an upgrade in this area for sure, as long as he worked on his foot speed.
You make a good point in looking at the forwards. Also, don't forget the style of play, either. Montreal tries to play a run 'n gun style of offence, so it stands to reason that they're going to guve up a lot of shots per game off the counter.

All in all, I don't really see what the problem is. As long as the Habs are tops in the league in goals for, I can live with bwing in the top half in goals against.

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Old
08-23-2008, 08:22 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Daniel Bigras View Post
Montreal was 26th last year with the number of shots allowed per game.

Montreal was 10th last year with the number of goals against.

Montreal was 13th last year with the number of goals scored against per game.

What did Gainey do to fix this problem?

Replacing Brisebois with Belle? In short, not much.

Will getting a good 3rd center fix this problem? Seriously, I doubt it. I think we tried so many 3rd centers last year that it never gave us very good results.

I think Bouillon and Gorges are too weak. They are slow, small, not gritty enough. I find that too many times Montreal gave too much room for the other team's offense. I doubt it's because our forwards are not fast enough.

Just look at Bouillon and Gorges' stats:

Josh Gorges, 6'1, 195lbs, 62, 0-9-9, +0
Francis Bouillon, 5'8, 201, 74, 2-6-8, +9

There are a few candidates still available on the market:

Marek Malik, 6'6, 240lbs, 42, 2-8-10, +10, 69, 2-19-21, +32
Bret Hedican, 6'2, 210lbs, 66, 2-15-17, +17
Keith Carney, 6'1, 216lbs, 61, 1-10-11, +8, 80, 4-13-17, +22
Chris Chelios, 6'1, 190lbs, 69, 3-9-12, +11
Mattias Norstrom, 6'2, 210lbs, 71, 2-11-13, +3

Ok, Cherlios is a nostalgic choice, but eh, he's still better than Bouillon and Gorges.

All these players are either bigger, stronger, better defensively, some are even all three.

Anyway, the point here is that I think we are blind if we think that Montreal's defense is good enough. It was the worst of the top 10 teams last year in the defensive area.

Again, what did the big guy do to improve these areas?
Since I'm trying to do anything but clean today, lets give this a go..

Shots allowed per game:

Well I do agree that we do allow more shots than we should, the types of shots haven't been dangerous for the most part. I said this numerous times last season, we have a defensive system that limits the opposing team opportunities to take quality shots. A lot of them came from the perimeter. I realise thats difficult to substanciate statistically, but Im sure a couple folks can back me up there.

Number of goals against. We were the 13th best in those regards. This ties into my post above. Dont believe me? Off of NHL.com http://www.nhl.com/nhlstats/app?form...it_0=Get+Stats

Team GP 5 on 5 5 on 4 5 on 3 4 on 4 4 on 3 3 on 3 3 on 4 3 on 5 4 on 5 EN PS Total GA/G
1 DET 82 106 6 0 5 0 0 0 7 50 4 1 179 2.18
2 ANA 82 100 6 0 3 0 0 0 10 59 6 0 184 2.24
3 SJS 82 122 9 0 6 0 0 2 7 35 6 0 187 2.28
4 NYR 82 115 5 1 9 0 1 2 6 44 5 2 190 2.32
5 NJD 82 122 6 0 4 0 0 1 6 46 8 0 193 2.35
6 DAL 82 132 8 0 5 0 0 2 5 43 9 0 204 2.49
7 VAN 82 128 6 1 5 0 0 1 7 55 3 0 206 2.51
8 CBJ 82 126 1 0 10 0 0 2 7 53 9 2 210 2.56
9 MIN 82 144 10 0 5 0 0 1 3 44 2 1 210 2.56
10 PIT 82 126 10 0 3 0 0 1 2 65 5 0 212 2.58
11 BOS 82 122 5 0 9 0 0 1 8 62 6 2 215 2.62
12 COL 82 140 3 0 5 0 0 0 6 50 11 1 216 2.63
13 MTL 82 140 3 0 6 0 0 3 5 52 6 1 216 2.63
14 FLA 82 140 3 0 5 0 0 4 6 56 5 1 220 2.68
15 NSH 82 150 8 0 9 0 0 0 10 38 7 2 224 2.73
16 CGY 82 135 6 0 7 0 0 2 6 63 5 0 224 2.73
17 PHX 82 138 11 0 4 0 0 2 9 53 8 0 225 2.74
18 PHI 82 141 6 0 9 0 1 2 5 58 5 0 227 2.77
19 WSH 82 140 6 1 4 0 0 0 9 59 7 1 227 2.77
20 CHI 82 138 5 0 10 0 0 0 6 62 10 0 231 2.82
21 STL 82 145 11 0 10 0 0 3 8 45 9 1 232 2.83
22 BUF 82 149 8 0 12 0 0 1 8 47 8 0 233 2.84
23 NYI 82 137 14 0 11 0 0 1 9 58 9 1 240 2.93
24 OTT 82 149 5 0 8 0 0 1 10 61 8 0 242 2.95
25 CAR 82 146 11 0 7 0 0 4 7 64 6 1 246 3.00
26 EDM 82 169 10 0 2 0 0 3 4 48 10 1 247 3.01
27 TOR 82 159 9 0 3 0 1 5 8 63 8 0 256 3.12
28 LAK 82 175 3 0 7 0 0 0 9 59 10 0 263 3.21
29 ATL 82 174 9 0 2 0 0 2 7 66 6 0 266 3.24
30 TBL 82 181 6 0 8 0 0 3 6 47 14 1 266 3.24

Next, number of goals against per game:

Same principle, 13th best. And well, we were second overall in goals per game with 3.13 vs 2.63 against. We'll keep wining games like that.

Now to our Dmen;

Belle was not a Brisebois replacement. He was acquired to play in Hamilton and to be a serviceable call up.

Gorges: IMO he was probably one of our most steady Dmen in the second half, particularly when Komisarek went down. Gorges does all the small things right, so I have no problems with him.

Bouillon: He does what he can for his size, works hard and cant skate very well. If Carbo limits his ice time, he'll then be most effective.

And well, I dont know how a third line center can fix defensive "problems"

Regardless, we're still blessed with depth in our bottom six.

As for the other options on D, I think they'd be a bit pricey for a bottom pairing Dman.

If you think Bouillon is slow, you havent seen Malik yet (think Peter Popovic)

Hedican is on his final legs. Wouldnt be a bad option to consider as long as he's willing to accept a Brisebois-esque deal.

I see Carney in the same light as Hedican, save he's had some back issues in the past couple seasons.

Chelios...I love him, but he should hang em up. I cant help but see some Paul Coffee in him right now. The pride says yes, but the body is slowly saying no.

Norstrum is retired and he's now doing carpentry in his hometown (seriously!)

And we were in the best half defensively with the best offense with a very young squad who can only get better.

Although I wouldnt be opposed to getting another Dman around the trade deadline.

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Old
08-23-2008, 10:27 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Bigras View Post
Do you have a virus on your computer? To purposely reply things that are completely besides the point?

Did I say that the biggest problem with Montreal was that Bouillon and Gorges are not GRITTY enough?

My goodness! I couldn't have been more clear!

Montreal is the worst of the top teams defensively and what has been done to fix this?

Just answer this oh simple question. Just that one. Please, pretty please.

I don't give a hoot about Bouillon's hitting habilities.. I want to see less shots on goal, that will lead to less goals scored per game, less goals scored at the end of the season.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Bigras View Post
This is ridiculous. You disagree that we are not the worst of the top teams defensively?

You disagree that we are not 26th on shots allowed per game?

You disagree that we are not 10th and 13th on goals against?

You think Gainey did enough to fix these problems?

And you also think that all these players, eventhought they had better seasons Bouillon and Gorges since the new NHL, that they are worst? How do you analyse players?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Bigras View Post
I agree with him. Too bad he sees what I write cuz I wouldn't have to read this below!



Next time, READ. As in, take the time to look at each word, understand the sentence, understand the meaning of the paragraph, understand the meaning of the post, before replying.

I'm not ONLY talking about Bouillon and Gorges, I'm talking about what has been done for next season to improve some of our biggest problem.

If someone fails to see this is a problem and think something has been done to fix this, please explain.

Triple-posting...
We are the mods when we need them? Oh yeah, I forgot, they're in Italy.
Damn Italians

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Old
08-23-2008, 10:29 AM
  #32
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Triple-posting...
We are the mods when we need them? Oh yeah, I forgot, they're in Italy.
Damn Italians
please... stop quoting him, there is a reason why i Ignored him

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08-23-2008, 06:24 PM
  #33
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So, from what I read, it's ok to be 10th defensively because we have 20 teams behind us.

This is completely stupid. If we analyse all the problems of the Montreal Canadiens, the defensive aspect doesn't need to be looked at because.. well, just because I guess.

Well, if we say just because, I guess it must be true! Very logical!

Duh.

It's ok to remain the WORST of the best teams defensively. It's ok to be amongst the worst teams in shots allowed per game.

Because why? Because MAYBE these shots are not dangerous?

Huh. We also allow the most goals amongst the top teams. But I guess there's no link between the number of shots and the number of goals allowed, just because.

I'm analysing the team to see what is needed to put them up against the top team, not against the 20 worst.

p.s. Can someone tell that schmock that I know that he ignored me and he doesn't need to write it in every message? I wish he could ignore the thread, too.

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Old
08-23-2008, 06:37 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Bigras View Post
...
There is absolutely no reason to not carry Briesbois. He can run our 2nd PP unit when he is in the line-up because it doesn't look too hot right now.

The 7th defenseman should play no more than 25-30 games, at maximum.. and in minimum minutes.

Brisebois played a good season, playing more than he should of (both games and TOI).. but with a limited role he'll be even more effective.

Plus, he's great with the kids and has a good attitude.

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08-23-2008, 06:49 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
There is absolutely no reason to not carry Briesbois. He can run our 2nd PP unit when he is in the line-up because it doesn't look too hot right now.

The 7th defenseman should play no more than 25-30 games, at maximum.. and in minimum minutes.

Brisebois played a good season, playing more than he should of (both games and TOI).. but with a limited role he'll be even more effective.

Plus, he's great with the kids and has a good attitude.
The thing with Brisebois is that he plays on the right and on the right, we are very week. We have too many defensemen that plays on the left and not enough on the right.

Markov, Hamrlik, Gorges, Bouillon, Dandenault are all lefties. Komisarek, O'Byrne and Weber are righties. Brisebois too, but he's not signed.

When you have O'Byrne as your 2nd defenseman on the right, it shows a weakness. O'Byrne is far from being at the level of a 4th defenseman.

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08-23-2008, 06:50 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Russeltown View Post
Triple-posting...
We are the mods when we need them? Oh yeah, I forgot, they're in Italy.
Damn Italians
Meaning?

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Old
08-23-2008, 06:55 PM
  #37
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Meaning?
GTFO NOOB

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Old
08-23-2008, 07:01 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Bigras View Post
The thing with Brisebois is that he plays on the right and on the right, we are very week. We have too many defensemen that plays on the left and not enough on the right.

Markov, Hamrlik, Gorges, Bouillon, Dandenault are all lefties. Komisarek, O'Byrne and Weber are righties. Brisebois too, but he's not signed.

When you have O'Byrne as your 2nd defenseman on the right, it shows a weakness. O'Byrne is far from being at the level of a 4th defenseman.
Gorges is a leftie that plays the right side, and I'd like to point out that he does a darn good job doing it too.

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08-23-2008, 07:05 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Bigras View Post
The thing with Brisebois is that he plays on the right and on the right, we are very week. We have too many defensemen that plays on the left and not enough on the right.

Markov, Hamrlik, Gorges, Bouillon, Dandenault are all lefties. Komisarek, O'Byrne and Weber are righties. Brisebois too, but he's not signed.

When you have O'Byrne as your 2nd defenseman on the right, it shows a weakness. O'Byrne is far from being at the level of a 4th defenseman.
First of all, O'Byrne isn't our #4. He's on the 2nd pairing for ES, but he'll probably be last in TOI among our top-6 defenseman. Josh Gorges is the #4.

Gorges can also play the right side, as he did with Markov when Komisarek went down.

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08-23-2008, 07:40 PM
  #40
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Damn, just learned about the multi quoting system. Cool. No need to be nasty, teaching new users is a sin here? And if we need moderators, it's to enforce the forum rules of conduct that users like this Maxpac are disobeying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoHabsGo247 View Post
Gorges is a leftie that plays the right side, and I'd like to point out that he does a darn good job doing it too.
From what I recall, he's better on the left. He played on the right because we were missing guys on that side. I recall he always had trouble on the right. I strongly believe he got better when he regularly played left.

But still, he's far from doing the job compared to other good defensemen last season.

But whatever, the point is not Gorges or Bouillon, the point is the defensive stats that Montreal was really bad at. What has been done? From what I can see, absolutely nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by natey2k4 View Post
First of all, O'Byrne isn't our #4. He's on the 2nd pairing for ES, but he'll probably be last in TOI among our top-6 defenseman. Josh Gorges is the #4.

Gorges can also play the right side, as he did with Markov when Komisarek went down.
Huh.. Numbers, numbers. Many people put numbers to lines and players when the coach said he doesn't.

Well, yer right, there are no such thing as #1, #2, #3, #4 spots/lines in a team. Only pairings, only responsibilities and that will eventually end up in Total On Ice stats as you said. Normally, the 2nd pair is for our 3rd and 4th best, but Ryan isn't just yet.

I agree that O'Byrne will play less than Gorges because Josh could possibily have more responsibilities than Ryan, Ryan is still the 2nd best defenseman on the right side. Normally he should be with the 3rd pairing, not the 2nd.

But please guys, less focus on the actual players, the main thing is to see what could improve the poor defensive stats that Montreal had. I really don't think Gainey did enough to improve the team in that respect.

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GTFO NOOB
Did that ever work? I mean, did a user really left a forum after someone wrote that in a thread?


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Old
08-23-2008, 09:04 PM
  #41
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HockeyBuzz says we have shown interest in Mathieu Schneider and are competing against the Devils, Islanders and Senators.

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08-24-2008, 10:06 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Daniel Bigras View Post
So, from what I read, it's ok to be 10th defensively because we have 20 teams behind us.

This is completely stupid. If we analyse all the problems of the Montreal Canadiens, the defensive aspect doesn't need to be looked at because.. well, just because I guess.

Well, if we say just because, I guess it must be true! Very logical!

Duh.

It's ok to remain the WORST of the best teams defensively. It's ok to be amongst the worst teams in shots allowed per game.

Because why? Because MAYBE these shots are not dangerous?

Huh. We also allow the most goals amongst the top teams. But I guess there's no link between the number of shots and the number of goals allowed, just because.

I'm analysing the team to see what is needed to put them up against the top team, not against the 20 worst.

p.s. Can someone tell that schmock that I know that he ignored me and he doesn't need to write it in every message? I wish he could ignore the thread, too.


I tried to logically reply to your post and you discredit it as being stupid.

Well done, Dan. Well done.

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Old
08-24-2008, 10:19 AM
  #43
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I tried to logically reply to your post and you discredit it as being stupid.

Well done, Dan. Well done.
wanna save the world with me chezz?

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08-24-2008, 10:32 AM
  #44
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wanna save the world with me chezz?
No...because as much as I disagree with some posters here, I believe everyone has the right to be heard.

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08-24-2008, 11:38 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Daniel Bigras View Post
From what I recall, he's better on the left. He played on the right because we were missing guys on that side. I recall he always had trouble on the right. I strongly believe he got better when he regularly played left.
He played on the right all season.

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Old
08-24-2008, 12:09 PM
  #46
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I'm sorry but he was verry servicable last season. At the price he was paid I dont know why you are complaining. The guy can handle the PP and he was verry surprising last season.
he did make glaring errors in the playoffs, when he did not get the puck out, it cost us 2 goals on two seperate times

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08-24-2008, 12:11 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Universal View Post
HockeyBuzz says we have shown interest in Mathieu Schneider and are competing against the Devils, Islanders and Senators.
u say if mats don't come, and we can't trade for a A1 centre, then go after another puckmoving d man


look how that helped det

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08-24-2008, 12:11 PM
  #48
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We don't need a #7 d-man, we have plenty of those. We need a true #4 after Markov, Komi and Hammer.

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08-24-2008, 12:16 PM
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We don't need a #7 d-man, we have plenty of those. We need a true #4 after Markov, Komi and Hammer.

bob will phone fla about bo?

or ana ?

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08-24-2008, 12:19 PM
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bob will phone fla about bo?

or ana ?
I think that Schneider would be perfect here if Sundin doesn't sign with us. Yes he is overpaid, but he only has one year left to his contract and would provide experience and can play the point on the PP, taking Streit's spot.

As for J-Bo, I don't think we're in the running for him. Florida would be asking the moon for him and we're not that desperate.

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