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A number 7 dman?

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08-24-2008, 12:33 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Asterix View Post
I think that Schneider would be perfect here if Sundin doesn't sign with us. Yes he is overpaid, but he only has one year left to his contract and would provide experience and can play the point on the PP, taking Streit's spot.

As for J-Bo, I don't think we're in the running for him. Florida would be asking the moon for him and we're not that desperate.
i have brought this theory up before about scheider, and got shot down, but i think it makes sense...

can't be to deep in GOOD offense d men

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08-24-2008, 01:06 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by sampollock View Post
i have brought this theory up before about scheider, and got shot down, but i think it makes sense...

can't be to deep in GOOD offense d men
One think I've learned over the years... being shut down doesn't mean it doesn't make sense.

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08-24-2008, 01:08 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Asterix View Post
One think I've learned over the years... being shut down doesn't mean it doesn't make sense.
yup, freeness of ideas...

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08-24-2008, 03:01 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by NHLcrazy View Post
please...pleeeease tell me you're joking...not 1 more year with him...oh god help us
whats your problem? Breezer had a very good season for a 7th Dman... get real

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08-24-2008, 03:11 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Daniel Bigras View Post
Montreal was 26th last year with the number of shots allowed per game.

Montreal was 10th last year with the number of goals against.

Montreal was 13th last year with the number of goals scored against per game.

What did Gainey do to fix this problem?

Replacing Brisebois with Belle? In short, not much.

Will getting a good 3rd center fix this problem? Seriously, I doubt it. I think we tried so many 3rd centers last year that it never gave us very good results.

I think Bouillon and Gorges are too weak. They are slow, small, not gritty enough. I find that too many times Montreal gave too much room for the other team's offense. I doubt it's because our forwards are not fast enough.

Just look at Bouillon and Gorges' stats:

Josh Gorges, 6'1, 195lbs, 62, 0-9-9, +0
Francis Bouillon, 5'8, 201, 74, 2-6-8, +9

There are a few candidates still available on the market:

Marek Malik, 6'6, 240lbs, 42, 2-8-10, +10, 69, 2-19-21, +32
Bret Hedican, 6'2, 210lbs, 66, 2-15-17, +17
Keith Carney, 6'1, 216lbs, 61, 1-10-11, +8, 80, 4-13-17, +22
Chris Chelios, 6'1, 190lbs, 69, 3-9-12, +11
Mattias Norstrom, 6'2, 210lbs, 71, 2-11-13, +3

Ok, Cherlios is a nostalgic choice, but eh, he's still better than Bouillon and Gorges.

All these players are either bigger, stronger, better defensively, some are even all three.

Anyway, the point here is that I think we are blind if we think that Montreal's defense is good enough. It was the worst of the top 10 teams last year in the defensive area.

Again, what did the big guy do to improve these areas?
please never post outside our board...PLease!!!!!

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08-24-2008, 09:22 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Lord Chezz View Post
I tried to logically reply to your post and you discredit it as being stupid.

Well done, Dan. Well done.
Sorry man, wasn't refering to you. I didn't know about the triple quoting and I tried to quote quickly what I've read.

Your post was the best and more constructive. I was mostly refering to the moron that tries to hurt my feeling by ignoring me.

While your opinions about the available defensemen can be debated, they still had better seasons than Bouillon and Gorges.

The main point is to identify what needs to be done to allow less shots and give a better chance to Price to allow less goals.

Maybe it's from the 3rd and 4th lines. Look at Detroit's, they are awesome, they have the best producing 3rd and 4th lines. Maybe that helps reducing the shots if your 3rd and 4th lines are good enough offensively.

It's a possibility.

Also, I looked at the young D that could help us on the right, Yannick Weber and PK Subban are right handed and could possibly help us there if they show enough skills in training camp.

Like last year, our offense was sparked by some young kids that developped quickly. Maybe our D can do the same this year.

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08-24-2008, 09:33 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by sampollock View Post
i have brought this theory up before about scheider, and got shot down, but i think it makes sense...

can't be to deep in GOOD offense d men
A lot of posters have suggested Schneider , myself included, and I don't recall much shooting. He makes sense for the power play as he still one times pretty well on his off side, but his acquisition closes the book on any 7M players and I'm sure that I don't need to say more on that matter.

Schneider would also probably push a developing player to the press box and that's probably not the direction they want to go. i'm refering to O'b, as I don't think they're going to dump Bouillon despite his hf popularity or lack of same.

Still, if they weren't spending on a C, it would mean Hamrlik/Schneider while Bouillon and O'b bryne rotate with Gorges.

Again, I wouldn't mind, the price tag shouldn't be much as it's just a cap deal isn't it ?

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08-24-2008, 09:41 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by mcphee View Post
A lot of posters have suggested Schneider , myself included, and I don't recall much shooting. He makes sense for the power play as he still one times pretty well on his off side, but his acquisition closes the book on any 7M players and I'm sure that I don't need to say more on that matter.

Schneider would also probably push a developing player to the press box and that's probably not the direction they want to go. i'm refering to O'b, as I don't think they're going to dump Bouillon despite his hf popularity or lack of same.

Still, if they weren't spending on a C, it would mean Hamrlik/Schneider while Bouillon and O'b bryne rotate with Gorges.

Again, I wouldn't mind, the price tag shouldn't be much as it's just a cap deal isn't it ?
There are two certainties in hockey:
  1. Although we don't know to what extent, there will be injuries throughout the season
  2. You can't buy experience
We have approximately $7-8 million under our cap right now. If Sundin doesn't sign with us and get Schneider, we take about $5 million of it on a guy who will play the PP with Markov, like Streit did last year. He's also a lot better than Streit defensively.

With the injuries, we will save another couple of million up to the trade deadline, which will still leave us with about $4-5 million to acquire whatever we need for a serious playoffs' run. Also, with injuries, Bouillon, Gorges and O'Byrne will get their playing time throughout the season, creating a healthy competition, sort of like what we've seen with Brisebois last year.

I think it's a win-win situation, assuming that the price is right to acquire him from Anaheim that is...

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08-24-2008, 09:45 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Daniel Bigras View Post
Damn, just learned about the multi quoting system. Cool. No need to be nasty, teaching new users is a sin here? And if we need moderators, it's to enforce the forum rules of conduct that users like this Maxpac are disobeying.



From what I recall, he's better on the left. He played on the right because we were missing guys on that side. I recall he always had trouble on the right. I strongly believe he got better when he regularly played left.

But still, he's far from doing the job compared to other good defensemen last season.

But whatever, the point is not Gorges or Bouillon, the point is the defensive stats that Montreal was really bad at. What has been done? From what I can see, absolutely nothing.



Huh.. Numbers, numbers. Many people put numbers to lines and players when the coach said he doesn't.

Well, yer right, there are no such thing as #1, #2, #3, #4 spots/lines in a team. Only pairings, only responsibilities and that will eventually end up in Total On Ice stats as you said. Normally, the 2nd pair is for our 3rd and 4th best, but Ryan isn't just yet.

I agree that O'Byrne will play less than Gorges because Josh could possibily have more responsibilities than Ryan, Ryan is still the 2nd best defenseman on the right side. Normally he should be with the 3rd pairing, not the 2nd.

But please guys, less focus on the actual players, the main thing is to see what could improve the poor defensive stats that Montreal had. I really don't think Gainey did enough to improve the team in that respect.



Did that ever work? I mean, did a user really left a forum after someone wrote that in a thread?

He was used on the right because he is more effective on that side. When he plays on the left there is a noticeable drop off, at least there was last year. The difference was the subject of a lot of discussion last year, it wasn't one or 2 individuals noticing it.

Montreal wanted to stabilize their defense last year. Hamrlik went a long way towards getting the style of D played that the team wants. Gainey made the comment that the d corps is now [his words] a sustainable group.

In becoming a more up tempo offensive team, Mtl gave up more chances than in the past when a lack of talent made them very conservative. Good offense starts with defense, moving the puck, as much as they're maligned, they're the back bone of the attack

otoh, team defense involves forwards taking away options and Mtl's group aren't very good at that. They should be, just like they should be better on the pk, and I belive they will be as the young players up front learn and develop.

I don't see them adding a stay at home 35 year old if it slows the development of some young players like O'bryne. Schneider,imo may be different as he brings something specific. I suspect the staff doesn't see it that way though.

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08-24-2008, 09:47 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Asterix View Post
There are two certainties in hockey:
  1. Although we don't know to what extent, there will be injuries throughout the season
  2. You can't buy experience
We have approximately $7-8 million under our cap right now. If Sundin doesn't sign with us and get Schneider, we take about $5 million of it on a guy who will play the PP with Markov, like Streit did last year. He's also a lot better than Streit defensively.

With the injuries, we will save another couple of million up to the trade deadline, which will still leave us with about $4-5 million to acquire whatever we need for a serious playoffs' run. Also, with injuries, Bouillon, Gorges and O'Byrne will get their playing time throughout the season, creating a healthy competition, sort of like what we've seen with Brisebois last year.

I think it's a win-win situation, assuming that the price is right to acquire him from Anaheim that is...
I have no issue with it, but otoh, I saw our guys play 80 times last year and Schneider somewhat less than that.

If plan B involved looking at a veteran C, then we can forget this idea and frankly, I'm not sure that either needs 'has' to be adressed before the season.

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08-24-2008, 09:55 PM
  #61
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Personally I agree with Dan in the sense that I dont think our defense was amazing last year, there definately is room for improvement, another Hamerlik with abit more offense would be amazing that s for sure ...
but...
If you look at the Rangers, they have no studs,but a bunch of good def that apply a system properly and Lundqvist that must help those stats too...same for a lot of teams.


Mtl has a totally different style, more offensive, but more dangerous and error prone, that s why Markov and Komi I think are in the top 5 or 10 in giveaways...
Markov s one of the best in takeaways ...

Mtl needs to play better 5vs5, and when they apply the system properly, I tought it was pretty effective, yes lot of shots but very few scoring chances which is i think a better stat than sog btw, I m hoping that s why Bob went to get Tanguay,because hes one of the best 5vs5. Stop being pushed around that much may help a little too...
But imo the key s in little things like better % of FO overall, less giveaways, and apply our system better and more consistenly, we dont need to change the players in place (exept 1 or 2) to have better results, I believe we just need to tweak these things to be better defensively.
Also notice that Mtl is still one of the best in the east defensively, behind a lot of western teams, but most of those same teams are far behind us offensively...
Last year we didnt really had anyone to stop the opposite team best players, hopefully that ll change too...

just my 02

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08-24-2008, 09:56 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by mcphee View Post
I have no issue with it, but otoh, I saw our guys play 80 times last year and Schneider somewhat less than that.

If plan B involved looking at a veteran C, then we can forget this idea and frankly, I'm not sure that either needs 'has' to be adressed before the season.
I fully agree. Having said that, rumour has it that Anaheim wants to part with Schneider in order to clear some cap space in order to re-sign Selanne, so he shouldn't be available for too much longer... unless Burke can't find a dance partner, which would mean that we could get him for dirt cheap.

This is a side note a bit off-topic, but if we don't get Sundin, I do agree that we're pretty thin at center, especially on the top two lines. I have no doubt that both Koivu and Plekanec can do the work, but if one of them gets injured for an extended period of time, we'll then rely on Lapierre or Chipchura? Fedorov would have been my first choice, Lang (although expensive at $4 million) could be a good option if Chicago wants to let him go...

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08-24-2008, 10:00 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Asterix View Post
I fully agree. Having said that, rumour has it that Anaheim wants to part with Schneider in order to clear some cap space in order to re-sign Selanne, so he shouldn't be available for too much longer... unless Burke can't find a dance partner, which would mean that we could get him for dirt cheap.

This is a side note a bit off-topic, but if we don't get Sundin, I do agree that we're pretty thin at center, especially on the top two lines. I have no doubt that both Koivu and Plekanec can do the work, but if one of them gets injured for an extended period of time, we'll then rely on Lapierre or Chipchura? Fedorov would have been my first choice, Lang (although expensive at $4 million) could be a good option if Chicago wants to let him go...
That's the hesitation with Schneider,imo, assuming we don't get #13.

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08-24-2008, 10:06 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by mcphee View Post
That's the hesitation with Schneider,imo, assuming we don't get #13.
If Sundin signs, we will then rely on injuries to free up some cap space during the season to solidify our defense at the deadline.

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08-25-2008, 08:27 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by mcphee View Post
A lot of posters have suggested Schneider , myself included, and I don't recall much shooting. He makes sense for the power play as he still one times pretty well on his off side, but his acquisition closes the book on any 7M players and I'm sure that I don't need to say more on that matter.

Schneider would also probably push a developing player to the press box and that's probably not the direction they want to go. i'm refering to O'b, as I don't think they're going to dump Bouillon despite his hf popularity or lack of same.

Still, if they weren't spending on a C, it would mean Hamrlik/Schneider while Bouillon and O'b bryne rotate with Gorges.

Again, I wouldn't mind, the price tag shouldn't be much as it's just a cap deal isn't it ?


good points

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08-25-2008, 09:15 AM
  #66
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if sundin does not sign, i would def not mind adding schnider to play in the top 4 and bump down one of gorges, bouillon or o'byrne to number 7. not to mention schnider might not play every game, so there is chance for some rotation.

BUT as mentioned brisebois is still likely to sign. as it has been discussed a number of times, there is a holdup for contract with bonus incentives due to the NHLPA agreement renewal. GM cannot give bonuses before a the deal is renwed. so that is the holdup for many veteran player signing such as selanne, shanahan, ans even sundin maybe. so this could be a reason why brisebois has not been signed yet, and it is likely that he could sign for the minimum plus incentives for points and games played....unfortunately

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08-25-2008, 09:48 AM
  #67
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Well, the way I look at it, we replaced a defensive liability in Ryder with an upgrade with Tanguay.

We got rid of a one demensional player in Streit, who was good on the powerplay but was mediocre in every other position.

We now have Laraque(sp?) who will intimidate people from going into our zone and will give our goalies more room to maneuver. Last year everyone was interfering with the goalies, where with GP, I believe this will diminish quite a bit.


So yeah, I think just in these three moves, we have gotten better defensively as well as offensively.

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08-25-2008, 10:04 AM
  #68
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We didnt have an awesome D because we chose to play an open/offence first game.

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08-25-2008, 10:40 AM
  #69
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This is a scoring team, not a defense-first team. To have playoff success they need to improve defensively, and there's no doubt a stud veteran d would be valuable.

However, in terms of improving defensively over last year, I think there has certainly been some movement in the right direction. Neither O'Byrne nor Gorges were regulars this time last year, and both are MUCH better defensively than Brisbois (although they don't have his passing abilities), plus both are young d who should continue to improve over the course of the year.

Up front, Tanguay is FAR more responsible and efficient defensively than Ryder was. Streit's loss is almost entirely offensive, as he was mostly a liability in his own zone, and the addition of BGL takes enormous pressure off Komisarek to fight and protect his teammates, as well as provides a much better deterrent to running our goalies than anything we've had in years.

Overall, not a major improvement. I'd say right now, the #4 slot is comparatively weak and the #7 slot is wide open. If a Valentenko, Belle or Carle can contribute positively over the course of the season, then the d will be pretty good, but that's a gamble. Depth is certainly an issue.

One thing that gives me pause is that Carbo has shown a definite preference for having an extra d in the lineup as a 4th line winger. Last year we carried 7 d almost every game and sometimes we had 8. So do we really expect him to only dress 6 this season? Is Dandy going to play (shudder) regularly?

If no Mats, then a veteran d on a short contract could well make sense to bridge the gap until the very deep prospect pool start to arrive in Montreal.


Last edited by Bullsmith: 08-25-2008 at 10:46 AM.
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08-25-2008, 01:13 PM
  #70
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We are still a big centre and a veteran D away from major Cup contention.

The premise of the thread is kinda off, it doesn't matter who the #7 is. Frankly Brisebois is jsut fine in that role and he wants to be in that role.

The current corps is lacking a good #4, as has been started previously. This is much better situation compared to when we only had a bunch of #5-6 guys and Markov just entered the league.

Dandenault is still a #7 if need be. (ack)

Defensively the team game is coming down to the quality of the bottom-6 forwards more than anything, and the ability of our top guys to play both ways. I remember watching the Kostitsyns with Grabovski and thinking that it's a matter of time before these guys get scored on. Ditto with Koivu centering them. But then Lapierre-Dandenault-Latendresse got out there and it was the same story.

Ask yourself: which guys on the bottom 6 really are good defensive players, and then weigh that against the potential contributions of a #7 D -- the forwards are not yet as solid there as the bottom defenders.

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08-25-2008, 01:20 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by znk View Post
We didnt have an awesome D because we chose to play an open/offence first game.
Lots of people are saying that the Habs had bad defence last season. How come Komisarek and Hamrlik were among the best shot blockers last year ? Markov ain't a bad d-man.

The problem is that we don't have many strong defensive forwards to help them. I like offense and the idea of having three productive offensive lines, but at some point, you need some very good defensive forwards. I don't see many on this Habs' line up.

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08-25-2008, 01:24 PM
  #72
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This is a scoring team, not a defense-first team. To have playoff success they need to improve defensively, and there's no doubt a stud veteran d would be valuable.

However, in terms of improving defensively over last year, I think there has certainly been some movement in the right direction. Neither O'Byrne nor Gorges were regulars this time last year, and both are MUCH better defensively than Brisbois (although they don't have his passing abilities), plus both are young d who should continue to improve over the course of the year.

Up front, Tanguay is FAR more responsible and efficient defensively than Ryder was. Streit's loss is almost entirely offensive, as he was mostly a liability in his own zone, and the addition of BGL takes enormous pressure off Komisarek to fight and protect his teammates, as well as provides a much better deterrent to running our goalies than anything we've had in years.

Overall, not a major improvement. I'd say right now, the #4 slot is comparatively weak and the #7 slot is wide open. If a Valentenko, Belle or Carle can contribute positively over the course of the season, then the d will be pretty good, but that's a gamble. Depth is certainly an issue.

One thing that gives me pause is that Carbo has shown a definite preference for having an extra d in the lineup as a 4th line winger. Last year we carried 7 d almost every game and sometimes we had 8. So do we really expect him to only dress 6 this season? Is Dandy going to play (shudder) regularly?

If no Mats, then a veteran d on a short contract could well make sense to bridge the gap until the very deep prospect pool start to arrive in Montreal.
I can live with Bouillon, or Dandenault or Brisebois as a seventh d-man.

Top-four d-men are hard to find, especially a rightie.

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