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Old
08-25-2008, 10:15 PM
  #51
AK
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The Leafs get beat here.

Other than an awesome player in Carter, they don't upgrade at all here, and Carter is signed for 3 more years.

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Old
08-25-2008, 10:15 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by SlowShot View Post
People just say Toskala sucks because he is a leaf. When he got traded I knew alot of sharks fans who would of rather traded Nabokov or rated them at the same level. Once he touches leaf property though he is useless. Hell, I bet if Carter got traded to the leafs people would rate him as overpaid borderline 2nd liner.
Please quote someone who said that or stop making things up.

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Old
08-25-2008, 10:35 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by J. Greenstein View Post
And why don't you tell us why Biron is as good or better than Toskala? Just because Flyers fans think so? That's all the "tangible" evidence you got? And I decided to post a poll to see how the majority felt, surprising results=).
OK ****tard...go find where I said Biron is better than Toskala.

The point I'm making, and the point that retards such as yourself seem to be missing, is that there is no substantial evidence that one is better than the other. Yet you and your minions keep spewing that stuff out of your mouths like it's F'ing gospel.

And please, don't be a child. If your proof that Toksala is better than Biron is some silly HF Boards poll, then there really isn't any need to go any further is there?

But, since I love messing with the fans from the "mecca of the hockey universe", I will give it a go.

Goalie "A" Career Stats: 2.49 GAA and .910 SV%
Goalie "B" Career Stats: 2.56 GAA and .911 SV%

See any big difference there? One is Toskala and one is Biron. Like I said, no tangible evidence that one is better than the other. Of course, one helped lead a team to a conference finals appearance, and one did not. Any clue which is which?

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Old
08-25-2008, 10:42 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post

Leafs have nothing I want with exception of Kabs and they will want Carter plus for Kabs. No thanks.
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Originally Posted by Squiffy View Post
Wouldn't trade a 7th for Steen? Stralman for some 30+ year old career AHLer? Tlusty for future considerations?

Just.. zero interest?
I may have to make this post my signature.

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Old
08-25-2008, 10:48 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Kaberle is not necessarily better than Carter at this point.
lol

4.25M per for a DEFENCEMAN with a career high 67 points (and hasn't been sub-50 points since 2003)

or

5.00M per for a forward with a career high 53 points

hmmm.

Deal doesn't make sense for Toronto anyways.

Kaberle >> Carter
Toskala > Biron
Antropov > Knuble, Parent

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Old
08-25-2008, 10:53 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by dubey View Post
Deal doesn't make sense for Toronto anyways.

Kaberle >> Carter
Toskala > Biron
Antropov > Knuble, Parent
Once again, the Leafs have all the best players in a trade proposal. And yet, they've missed the playoffs three years in a row. How does this happen?


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Old
08-25-2008, 10:54 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowFlyer View Post
OK ****tard...go find where I said Biron is better than Toskala.

The point I'm making, and the point that retards such as yourself seem to be missing, is that there is no substantial evidence that one is better than the other. Yet you and your minions keep spewing that stuff out of your mouths like it's F'ing gospel.

And please, don't be a child. If your proof that Toksala is better than Biron is some silly HF Boards poll, then there really isn't any need to go any further is there?

But, since I love messing with the fans from the "mecca of the hockey universe", I will give it a go.

Goalie "A" Career Stats: 2.49 GAA and .910 SV%
Goalie "B" Career Stats: 2.56 GAA and .911 SV%

See any big difference there? One is Toskala and one is Biron. Like I said, no tangible evidence that one is better than the other. Of course, one helped lead a team to a conference finals appearance, and one did not. Any clue which is which?

You're a real classy individual.

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Old
08-25-2008, 10:55 PM
  #58
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You're a real classy individual.
In other words, I'm right?

Sometimes the truth hurts.

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Old
08-25-2008, 10:58 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by ShadowFlyer View Post
Once again, the Leafs have all the best players in a trade proposal. And yet, they've missed the playoffs three years in a row. How does this happen?

the love for Nick Antropov. Scored over 20 goals and over 50 points once in 8 NHL years because of Sundin
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Originally Posted by dubey View Post
lol
Antropov > Knuble, Parent
Quote:
Originally Posted by dubey View Post
5.00M per for a forward with a career high 53 points

hmmm.
Career? Carter just completed his 3rd NHL year. He is 30 goal scorer. Ok 29 goals scorer last season.


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Old
08-25-2008, 11:16 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by ShadowFlyer View Post
Once again, the Leafs have all the best players in a trade proposal. And yet, they've missed the playoffs three years in a row. How does this happen?

Unfortunately three players barely make up a tenth of an NHL-sized roster.

Toronto gets shafted in this deal no matter how you want to look at it.

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Old
08-25-2008, 11:18 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Tripod View Post
No...Toskala is not great.
---
And I for one hope Homer goes and gets us a great goalie somehow as opposed to an adequate one which we seem to always have...Always good/adequate but never great.
Seems like the same thing Vancouver, until Luongo recently, always did. Hextall was very good, but you haven't had that great, great, goalie to push you guys over since Parent and (tragically) Lindbergh. Not that Toskala would be that great, great, goalie either.

I remember when the Biron to Philly news broke, kinda shook my head and said, "They're still doing it.."

Yes, I know, I'm a Leaf fan, I realize that, not defending my teams management, or putting the track record up against anyones else's, just saying, for the Philly fans I wish Clarke had grabbed an elite guy for a season or two.. they were so close for so long.

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Originally Posted by ShadowFlyer View Post
And please, don't be a child. If your proof that Toksala is better than Biron is some silly HF Boards poll, then there really isn't any need to go any further is there?
Personally, I respect the opinion of my peers on this board. And frankly, if a Leaf player is winning a poll on HF over anyone, with many fans of various teams weighing in, it's a pretty good indicator.

Not sure what "proof" I'm supposed to be able to provide really. Some kind of youtube montage, or Jeebus's 2008 NHL goalie rankings from The Hockey News, I really don't know. It's really not that big a deal, Biron is an average NHL goalie, Toskala is slightly better.. I'd have said that 3 years ago pre-"being a Leaf", and I say it now. If Buffalo wasn't in such financial trouble pre-lockout, he'd never have had a sniff at being a starter for so long. Miller beating him out as the starter ranked among the sun rising in the east as surprises.

As for the original trade proposal, I wouldn't do it as the Flyers GM. Carter and Parent is too steep.

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Old
08-25-2008, 11:18 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by dubey View Post
Unfortunately three players barely make up a tenth of an NHL-sized roster.

Toronto gets shafted in this deal no matter how you want to look at it.
Funny, I looked at it and thought it close to even, and several Flyers fans looked at it and thought it actually favored the Leafs. Care to rethink that latter sentence?

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Old
08-25-2008, 11:20 PM
  #63
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Unfortunately three players barely make up a tenth of an NHL-sized roster.

Toronto gets shafted in this deal no matter how you want to look at it.
You have hope now with Finger. Almost every leaf fan (including you) will demand at least two 1st round picks next off season.

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Old
08-25-2008, 11:20 PM
  #64
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OK ****tard...go find where I said Biron is better than Toskala.
Do you ever find yourself sitting and yelling at the computer screen? Yeah. Take a deep breath. Time go take a step outside there champ.
You've got alot bigger problems than Biron vs Toskala if it brings you to calling people ****tard on a hockey forum.

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Old
08-25-2008, 11:24 PM
  #65
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Do you ever find yourself sitting and yelling at the computer screen? Yeah. Take a deep breath. Time go take a step outside there champ.
You've got alot bigger problems than Biron vs Toskala if it brings you to calling people ****tard on a hockey forum.
Thanks dad! I don't know what I would do without you!

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Old
08-25-2008, 11:40 PM
  #66
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Personally, I respect the opinion of my peers on this board. And frankly, if a Leaf player is winning a poll on HF over anyone, with many fans of various teams weighing in, it's a pretty good indicator.
It has nothing to do with respect. A poll is an opinion, and that's fine. But a poll does not in one way or another affirm one goalie being better than another. I'm not a big believer in stats, but its a much better judge of performance than a poll. And the stats are about as even as it gets between Biron and Toskala. That is fact. It can't be disputed. The numbers I posted earlier are in black and white and not made up. They are not opinion. And they paint a pretty darn good picture of equality between both goalies.

Quote:
Not sure what "proof" I'm supposed to be able to provide really.
Thank you. This is my exact point. No proof can be provided because there simply is none. This isn't meant to put Toskala down, nor is it meant to elevate Biron. There is no major difference between the two up to this point, hence, no proof can be provided. Therefore it would make literally zero sense for the Flyers to swap goalies, especially when you consider that Biron was a HUGE reason we beat Montreal in last season's playoffs. We already know what we have. No need to risk that for a maybe enhancement in Toskala.

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Old
08-25-2008, 11:44 PM
  #67
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Unfortunately three players barely make up a tenth of an NHL-sized roster.

Toronto gets shafted in this deal no matter how you want to look at it.
Wrong. It only looks that way when viewing it through Blue & White colored glasses.

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Old
08-25-2008, 11:54 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by ShadowFlyer View Post
It has nothing to do with respect. A poll is an opinion, and that's fine. But a poll does not in one way or another affirm one goalie being better than another. I'm not a big believer in stats, but its a much better judge of performance than a poll. And the stats are about as even as it gets between Biron and Toskala. That is fact. It can't be disputed. The numbers I posted earlier are in black and white and not made up. They are not opinion. And they paint a pretty darn good picture of equality between both goalies.



Thank you. This is my exact point. No proof can be provided because there simply is none. This isn't meant to put Toskala down, nor is it meant to elevate Biron. There is no major difference between the two up to this point, hence, no proof can be provided. Therefore it would make literally zero sense for the Flyers to swap goalies, especially when you consider that Biron was a HUGE reason we beat Montreal in last season's playoffs. We already know what we have. No need to risk that for a maybe enhancement in Toskala.
All fair enough, indeed.

While I personally would, in a straight up trade, move Biron to get Toskala (ignoring salary caps, potential chemistry on an on the rise team, etc.), there is zero impudence for the Flyers to be eagerly seeking to make such a move.

For god's sake though, if you get a chance at a Lunqy or something, tell Homer to forget Clarke's styles and take the dive.

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Old
08-26-2008, 12:03 AM
  #69
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All fair enough, indeed.

While I personally would, in a straight up trade, move Biron to get Toskala (ignoring salary caps, potential chemistry on an on the rise team, etc.), there is zero impudence for the Flyers to be eagerly seeking to make such a move.

For god's sake though, if you get a chance at a Lunqy or something, tell Homer to forget Clarke's styles and take it once.
Good...I call a truce!

In all honesty, Toskala may very well end up being the better goalie. It's just that if I had a gun to my head right now, I would side with Biron because I've seen what he can do for us when the chips are down. Will I have the same opinion next year at this time? Who knows? I just don't see a big difference between them at this point, so I feel more comfortable with what we have right now.

And I wholeheartedly agree that if we have a chance to grab an elite goaltender, then by all means, Homer better pull that trigger. I certainly can't argue with that logic.

Let's hope for both our teams' sake that Toskala and Biron both perform well this season, and make this whole conversation moot

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08-26-2008, 12:14 AM
  #70
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Good...I call a truce!

In all honesty, Toskala may very well end up being the better goalie. It's just that if I had a gun to my head right now, I would side with Biron because I've seen what he can do for us when the chips are down. Will I have the same opinion next year at this time? Who knows? I just don't see a big difference between them at this point, so I feel more comfortable with what we have right now.

And I wholeheartedly agree that if we have a chance to grab an elite goaltender, then by all means, Homer better pull that trigger. I certainly can't argue with that logic.

Let's hope for both our teams' sake that Toskala and Biron both perform well this season, and make this whole conversation moot
Toskala, depending on some real life trades/signings yet to come, is going to need to be Hasek circa 1999 for us to go anywhere lol.., but ya, cheers

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Old
08-26-2008, 12:28 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by dubey View Post
lol

4.25M per for a DEFENCEMAN with a career high 67 points (and hasn't been sub-50 points since 2003)

or

5.00M per for a forward with a career high 53 points

hmmm.

Deal doesn't make sense for Toronto anyways.

Kaberle >> Carter
Toskala > Biron
Antropov > Knuble, Parent
comparing a veteran defenseman to a 3rd year NHL Center=Fail

Toskala being better then Biron is up for debate, its a argument that could get debated all day long. I think Biron is better.

once again comparing a 2nd line forward to a forward whos best days are long behind him and a rookie defenseman who played less then a full season of NHL hockey=FAIL

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Old
08-26-2008, 02:59 AM
  #72
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Man, this is just crazy. Flyers fans running amok! Kaktus and SF here acting as if it's insulting to compare Toskala and Biron. I can't believe this is even up for debate, or that Leafs fans would cave to the point of saying Toskala is only slightly better than Biron.

As a fan of the Sharks and the Flyers, and still being a fan of Biron, I will say that Toskala is a significant upgrade to Biron. He's more athletic and quicker side-to-side. Biron has a better glove hand and is perhaps better positionally. I've watched Toskala for years and a lot of Biron this year, and I feel confident enough to say that a hot Toskala beats a hot Biron four out of five times and that an average Toskala puts up quite the fight against a hot Biron.

Do I like Biron? Yeah. I love his presence. I love his desire. I was his biggest fan this past playoffs. But would I trade him for Toskala? In a heartbeat. I wouldn't even care about the cap difference, I'd make room. I firmly believe that he can carry a team to the cup.

What have they accomplished? Neither has accomplished much. Biron, however, did lose the starting job to Miller (who, might I add, I would also trade for Toskala given the opportunity). Toskala, on the other hand, had to make his way in one of the most talent-crowded goalie pipelines in recent history. He was supposed to be the future between the pipes, over both Nabby and Kipper, but the injury to Shields happened before he was ready and the eldest and most experienced was thrown into the flames only to come out smelling like roses. Toskala beat out Kiprusoff at Cleveland, getting the main starter's role to develop quicker and be ready when needed. Kipper was relegated to the backup of Nabokov, playing nearly the same role as Patzold played for part of this year because of the Sharks' current goalie pipeline overload. Kipper was traded to make room for Toskala to play backup (plus the deal was too good to turn down at the time). He came in and played very well, meeting all expectations besides beating Nabokov out, and he even did that a couple of times.

Now, if anyone is going to bring up who Toskala beat out this year (Raycroft), at least bring history into it. The starter's job was never in question in Toronto, he didn't 'beat Raycroft out,' he IS the starter, and he lived up to some lofty expectations in Toronto. Biron's job was in question at some points during the year. Some Flyer fans were calling for Frank to start more games, that's not great confidence from the fan base. Of the shining stars from Toronto last year, Toskala was one of, if not the, brightest. I've read many a post from Leaf's fans blaming losing the Stamkos sweepstakes on Toskala.

As for chemistry lost in Biron, Toskala is not a very vocal guy. He is reserved and won't go out and fight Ray Emery, but he is a leader by example. And, I think he would get along well with fellow countryman and leader of the defense Kimmo Timonen.

Toskala would have been the starter of many teams far earlier in his career if he wasn't behind such a loaded goalie pipeline. He is consistent and always goes out and tries hard. I am very thankful that the Flyers have Biron and that he played so well for them in the playoffs, but I would rather have Toskala any day.

I'll take the guy that, at some points in his career, beat out two Vezina candidates (one that won).

As for the suggested trade - it's pretty close value wise NOW, but not worth it in the future. The Flyers have a strong team, but they aren't in a position to sacrifice futures for immediate needs right now. Toronto needs the consistency at goalie and the goalie needs the stellar play of a quality defenseman. Parent will get there, but there would be no reason for Toronto to move this many pieces at this point. The trade just doesn't make sense for either side. Plus, I really don't think much of Antropov. I think he's a flash-in-the-pan kind of player and don't trust his consistency. I would much rather have Carter. Biron + Knuble for Toskala I'd probably do, considering the flyer's depth. Carter for Kaberle of course, it covers so many needs. Parent for Antropov, no. Parent fills a need for the Flyers right now and especially in the future, Antropov would simply be a nice addition and not part of the future plans. The Kaberle/Carter rumors aren't going to end, are they?

Wow, that was long.

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08-26-2008, 04:24 AM
  #73
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Sure there is.. He plays for Maple Leafs and thats why he is better.



Leafs have nothing I want with exception of Kabs and they will want Carter plus for Kabs. No thanks.
The truth of the matter is Kabs is worth Carter plus but some flyer fans are over rating Carter. Now lets get this straight Carter who is a third line center on your team is worth a top 10 d-man with a great contract.

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08-26-2008, 04:59 AM
  #74
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The truth of the matter is Kabs is worth Carter plus but some flyer fans are over rating Carter. Now lets get this straight Carter who is a third line center on your team is worth a top 10 d-man with a great contract.
That is a horrible way to place value on to a player. It doesn't matter where the player is on the roster when he is as young as Carter, it matters on what he's doing with the minutes played. As it is, Carter has shown extended glimpses of the potential that led to him being drafted so high. He not only succeeded on all areas of the ice (the defensive side being an unexpected development), but he produced very good numbers in a role that saw less ice time than others. Not only that, but when injuries forced a player to step up, he not only held his own, he played terrifically with the increased ice time and pressure of a larger role. When Richards and Lupul went down, Carter was pretty much the Flyer's most dangerous offensive threat. There is a reason that people have put such a high value on Carter, he has (so far) lived up to much of it.

And while I agree with you that Carter is not value enough alone to pick up Kaberle, I don't think that was the argument. I think that people wanted to discuss trade possibilities with these two as the centerpieces, not just them alone. While I think Kaberle is a very good defenseman, it is his value, not simply his ability, that makes him so sought after.

I think this post is a very "Holier than thou" snide response more so than anything meant to bring something into the discussion. And it seems as if Kaktus made it very clear that, value wise, Toronto would want Carter plus for Kaberle.

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Old
08-26-2008, 08:23 AM
  #75
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The truth of the matter is Kabs is worth Carter plus but some flyer fans are over rating Carter. Now lets get this straight Carter who is a third line center on your team is worth a top 10 d-man with a great contract.
This is completely ignorant of what kind of player Carter is. If Sundin is gone, he'd be your best center, just ahead of Antropov.

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