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Old
08-26-2008, 08:40 AM
  #76
DUHockey9
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People need to stop using the "3rd line center" argument for Carter.

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08-26-2008, 08:51 AM
  #77
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lol why would the leafs ever do this? I mean I would like carter but there is no way I would trade Kaberle for him casue if we traded him alone we could get way more.

And while both toskala and biron are unproven you gota be kidding if your gonna say Biron is better then toskala.

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08-26-2008, 09:11 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by con310 View Post
lol why would the leafs ever do this? I mean I would like carter but there is no way I would trade Kaberle for him casue if we traded him alone we could get way more.

And while both toskala and biron are unproven you gota be kidding if your gonna say Biron is better then toskala.
Right.

And yet, last year, at the deadline, the Leafs wanted to trade Kaberle straight up for Carter only to have Kaberle nix the deal.

So while you can claim that the Leafs would get "way more" the General Manager of the club seems to disagree.

I think I'll go with his opinion.

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08-26-2008, 09:13 AM
  #79
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I find it funny that all of a sudden Toskala is so great (which I think he is, he probably is better than Biron), but at the trade deadline everyone was trying to pawn him off.

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Old
08-26-2008, 09:19 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by FerrisRox View Post
Right.

And yet, last year, at the deadline, the Leafs wanted to trade Kaberle straight up for Carter only to have Kaberle nix the deal.

So while you can claim that the Leafs would get "way more" the General Manager of the club seems to disagree.

I think I'll go with his opinion.
What? When did Fletcher ever say they would give up Kaberle stright up for Carter?

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Old
08-26-2008, 09:38 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Volcanologist View Post
What? When did Fletcher ever say they would give up Kaberle stright up for Carter?
He never did. It was Carter and First for Kabs. There might have even been a project prospect headed to T.O. as well but I'm not 100% on that. But Carter and a First was for sure.

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08-26-2008, 09:42 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by bornfromjets View Post
He never did. It was Carter and First for Kabs. There might have even been a project prospect headed to T.O. as well but I'm not 100% on that. But Carter and a First was for sure.
I wouldn't call it sure. That was simply what one writer thought it was, which was picked up on by a lot of others.

Anyway, its a moot point. Carter increased his value in the meantime both through his play and by signing his contract, which won't take him to UFA. Additionally, Holmgren told a group of season ticket holders that there was one deal he was glad that didn't go down, which is believed to be the Carter-Kaberle swap.

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08-26-2008, 09:43 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
I find it funny that all of a sudden Toskala is so great (which I think he is, he probably is better than Biron), but at the trade deadline everyone was trying to pawn him off.
Since when have the mass army of retarded HF posters been able to accurately judge the talent or value of hockey players? Having a bunch of tank hungry Leaf fans try to pawn Toskala off for picks should have no bearing on his talent or value to a real hockey franchise.

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08-26-2008, 09:45 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by bornfromjets View Post
Since when have the mass army of retarded HF posters been able to accurately judge the talent or value of hockey players? Having a bunch of tank hungry Leaf fans try to pawn Toskala off for picks should have no bearing on his talent or value to a real hockey franchise.
Well said!

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08-26-2008, 10:18 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
I find it funny that all of a sudden Toskala is so great (which I think he is, he probably is better than Biron), but at the trade deadline everyone was trying to pawn him off.

Where do you get this "all of a sudden Toskala is so great" from? Last summer, the price to land him was a 1st, 2nd, 4th and having to take Mark Bell...most here seemed to think it was a decent trade for both sides...a few months earlier the cost to get Biron was only a 2nd.

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Old
08-26-2008, 10:24 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by ShadowFlyer View Post
Riiiiiiiiiite? Apparently, as soon as a goalie dons the Leaf logo, they instantly become elite, whether they've actually accomplished anything or not. Fantasy land must be a really nice place to live....
You got some examples? Cujo? Belfour? Exactly which goalies suddenly became "elite" once they donned the Leafs logo?

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Old
08-26-2008, 10:44 AM
  #87
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The leafs lose the best goalie and best player in the deal. The flyers lose the 2 youngest players in the deal. According to HF boards, somehow the flyers get hosed......


Also ask sharks fans. Toskala beat Nabakov twice for the starting job. Numerous fans of the sharks (ask them) would rather have kept toskala and it was Nabby's contract that made Vesa expendable. It cost 1,2,4 for toskala and a 2nd for bell and somehow this makes Biron equal to Toskala?

Kaberle is Easily worth Carter and Parent.
Toskala is better than Biron
Antropov is worth more than knuble.

Sometimes you cant just add up the average ages......

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Old
08-26-2008, 10:45 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by bornfromjets View Post
He never did. It was Carter and First for Kabs. There might have even been a project prospect headed to T.O. as well but I'm not 100% on that. But Carter and a First was for sure.
It was Carter and the 2008 1st. There may have been one other roster player going from Philly as a salary dump.

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08-26-2008, 10:49 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by mercury View Post
It was Carter and the 2008 1st. There may have been one other roster player going from Philly as a salary dump.
I heard that it was Carter, 1st, (prospect----perhaps parent).
In light of what Boyle got it seems kinda more like that is the case....

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Old
08-26-2008, 11:08 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Krazy View Post
Kaberle is Easily worth Carter and Parent.
Toskala is better than Biron
Antropov is worth more than knuble.
At least you're living up to your name.

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Old
08-26-2008, 11:11 AM
  #91
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Man, this is just crazy. Flyers fans running amok! Kaktus and SF here acting as if it's insulting to compare Toskala and Biron. I can't believe this is even up for debate, or that Leafs fans would cave to the point of saying Toskala is only slightly better than Biron.
What the hell are you talking about? Get a clue. No one is insulted about a comparison. I mean, I listed their career stats side by side. I compared them myself, genius. Look at the numbers. If either one is better than the other, is in only slight.

Quote:
As a fan of the Sharks and the Flyers, and still being a fan of Biron, I will say that Toskala is a significant upgrade to Biron. He's more athletic and quicker side-to-side. Biron has a better glove hand and is perhaps better positionally. I've watched Toskala for years and a lot of Biron this year, and I feel confident enough to say that a hot Toskala beats a hot Biron four out of five times and that an average Toskala puts up quite the fight against a hot Biron.
You're entitled to your opinion, but once again, that doesn't necessarily make it F'ing so. A significant upgrade? Brodeur is a sig upgrade. As is Luongo. As is Lundqvist. The numbers suggest that Toskala is NOT a sig upgrade.

Quote:
Do I like Biron? Yeah. I love his presence. I love his desire. I was his biggest fan this past playoffs. But would I trade him for Toskala? In a heartbeat. I wouldn't even care about the cap difference, I'd make room. I firmly believe that he can carry a team to the cup.
Good for you. You have an opinion. It still doesn't mean squat. Toskala has never done any more in the NHL than Biron has. The difference between the two is negligible at best.

Quote:
What have they accomplished? Neither has accomplished much. Biron, however, did lose the starting job to Miller (who, might I add, I would also trade for Toskala given the opportunity).
You would take him over Miller? Really? You're serious? There really isn't much I can add here....

Quote:
Wow, that was long.
It most certainly was, and it still didn't do anything to suggest Toskala is better than Biron. It was just a long-winded opinion of why you think Toskala is better, when you could have skipped over all of that and just compared the stats. Opinions are just that, opinions, and you are entitled to yours. Stats are fact. They can't be disputed. And the stats say there is no discernible difference between the two goalies.

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Old
08-26-2008, 11:11 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Krazy View Post
The leafs lose the best goalie and best player in the deal. The flyers lose the 2 youngest players in the deal. According to HF boards, somehow the flyers get hosed......


Also ask sharks fans. Toskala beat Nabakov twice for the starting job. Numerous fans of the sharks (ask them) would rather have kept toskala and it was Nabby's contract that made Vesa expendable. It cost 1,2,4 for toskala and a 2nd for bell and somehow this makes Biron equal to Toskala?

Kaberle is Easily worth Carter and Parent.
Toskala is better than Biron
Antropov is worth more than knuble.

Sometimes you cant just add up the average ages......
Why do you guys keep using trade value to compare players. It cost Alexei Zhitnik to land Braydon Coburn. The Flyers got Zhitnik for Freddy Meyer and a conditional 3rd. I wouldn't trade Coburn for anyone on the Leafs.

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08-26-2008, 11:36 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by ShadowFlyer View Post
I'm not a big believer in stats
So you're not a "big believer in stats" eh? At least we could agree on that.

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Old
08-26-2008, 11:38 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by ShadowFlyer View Post
What the hell are you talking about?


Stats are fact. They can't be disputed. And the stats say there is no discernible difference between the two goalies.

Now what the hell are you taking about?

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Old
08-26-2008, 11:42 AM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tripod View Post
To Flyers-Toskala, Kaberle, Antropov

To Leafs-Biron, Carter, Knuble, Parent

So for Toronto...Get their 1st line centre,
get another young shutdown D-Man
In Knuble and Biron they get 2 contracts that expire(freeing up
Money to go after free agents and having 2 tradable commodities
at the trade deadline

For the Flyers:...Get #2 D-man
Get Third line Center...replacing Carter in position...not talent
Get an upgrade in Goal who is signed

So Flyers would have: Toronto: Poni Carter Blake
Hagman Stajan Steen
Hartnell Briere Gagne Tlusty Grabovski Knuble
Lupul Richards Giroux Bell Moore Mayers
Downie Antropov Upshall
Cote Metropolit Asham

Timonen Coburn McCabe(for now) Kubina
Kaberle Jones Finger Stralman
Eminger Vaananen Parent Colaiacovo

Toskala Biron, Joseph
Nitty

We all know that there was a deal for Carter +1st for Kaberle. But this was before Carter started to break out. But by adding Parent (like a 1st) it makes up the difference in goal and the value today of Kabs and Carter. The Antro and Knuble is pretty much a wash (both UFA) but gives the Flyers a replacement for Carter and he can move up if injuries occur or if a player is not ready(Giroux or Downie) This deal also gives Philly an extra $1.855 in cap space to add a depth forward if they feel they need it.

Toronto get 2 players to build with and then can turn Biron and Knuble into 1-2 younger players and picks at the deadline...they helping rebuild quicker. Then they have 6 mill available with this deal to add a FA if they choose to.

So let the bashing begin...keep in mind...this is my first post.
Amazing Toronto gives up the 3 best players in this deal...tell me again why would they even consider this?

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Old
08-26-2008, 11:50 AM
  #96
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Now what the hell are you taking about?
Are you really that dense?

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Old
08-26-2008, 11:52 AM
  #97
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So you're not a "big believer in stats" eh? At least we could agree on that.
Yea, because your opinion carries so much more weight than the actual numbers.

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Old
08-26-2008, 11:58 AM
  #98
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Amazing Toronto gives up the 3 best players in this deal...tell me again why would they even consider this?
Wow, you're out of your ******* mind.

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Old
08-26-2008, 12:12 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by J. Greenstein View Post
So you're not a "big believer in stats" eh? At least we could agree on that.
OK...let me get this straight...

Despite the fact that Toskala and Biron are almost identical in age and statistics, despite the fact that Biron helped lead the Flyers to the ECF, despite the fact that Biron outperformed Toskala last season in both GAA and SV%, I am supposed to believe that Toskala is the superior goalie because you, J. Greenstein, says so?

Well then, color me convinced

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Old
08-26-2008, 12:54 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by ShadowFlyer View Post
OK...let me get this straight...

Despite the fact that Toskala and Biron are almost identical in age and statistics, despite the fact that Biron helped lead the Flyers to the ECF, despite the fact that Biron outperformed Toskala last season in both GAA and SV%, I am supposed to believe that Toskala is the superior goalie because you, J. Greenstein, says so?

Well then, color me convinced

Well you are the one who said you weren't a big believer in stats...then you say that stats are fact and can't be disputed. Well you are wrong, because they can be disputed. A goalie's stats can be reflective of the team as much as the goalie. Most people would agree that Toskala is the better goalie. You are quick to dismiss the poll I posted, where Toskala blows away Biron...well the result of this poll is more accurate than your (stat based)opinion or mine. THN Yearbook rates Toskala at #35 of their top 50 players, 4 spots ahead of the goalie that Biron played second fiddle to...of course Biron is not in the top 50. It's a Mike Brophy article, his opinion should be deemed to carry more weight than yours or mine. If you know of some current goalie rankings, I'd love to see them.

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