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Old
08-26-2008, 01:56 PM
  #101
LEIFey
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i don't think this is a case of people overvaluing their players. the flyers don't need to deal carter, contrary to popular belief, and have no reason to trade him for anything short of a gross overpayment. kaberle is worth more than carter, but he's where you need to start to even get carter on the table.

i think i would trade biron for toskala, but if i trade for a goalie, it would probably be a package for someone closer to elite.

i don't know why antropov or knuble are in this deal.

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08-26-2008, 02:09 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by J. Greenstein View Post
Well you are the one who said you weren't a big believer in stats...then you say that stats are fact and can't be disputed. Well you are wrong, because they can be disputed. A goalie's stats can be reflective of the team as much as the goalie. Most people would agree that Toskala is the better goalie. You are quick to dismiss the poll I posted, where Toskala blows away Biron...well the result of this poll is more accurate than your (stat based)opinion or mine. THN Yearbook rates Toskala at #35 of their top 50 players, 4 spots ahead of the goalie that Biron played second fiddle to...of course Biron is not in the top 50. It's a Mike Brophy article, his opinion should be deemed to carry more weight than yours or mine. If you know of some current goalie rankings, I'd love to see them.
I give up, you win. You already convinced me. Who could deny the overwhelming "evidence" that has been presented in this thread?

Let's take a look at this "evidence" that makes it clear that Toskala is better than Biron.

1) Toskala got more votes than Biron on an HF Boards poll

2) Toskala took over for Nabokov in SJ...more than once

3) Many Sharks fans wanted Nabokov traded instead of Toskala

4) Toskala is more athletic than Biron

5) THN Yearbook ranks Toskala higher

6) The Leafs gave up more for Toskala than the Flyers did for Biron

7) One poster would trade Ryan Miller straight up for Toskala

8) J. Greenstein says so

There you have it! Indisputable "evidence" that Toskala is superior to Biron. I mean, I can only assume that everyone is convinced at this point.

Quite the compelling argument...

Certainly more compelling than my "stats" based argument.


Last edited by Shadow Flyer: 08-26-2008 at 02:21 PM.
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08-26-2008, 02:40 PM
  #103
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How are we supposed to judge if a goalie is better or worse than each other. Because apperantly philly fans who also watch San Jose will say that Toskala is better than Biron but their opions don't count apperantly. How are we supposed to get "Tangible" evidence?

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08-26-2008, 02:46 PM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowShot View Post
How are we supposed to judge if a goalie is better or worse than each other. Because apperantly philly fans who also watch San Jose will say that Toskala is better than Biron but their opions don't count apperantly. How are we supposed to get "Tangible" evidence?
well, id start by finding comparable statistics, like career save% and GAA (though this stat tends to be inflated by poor teams). also, look at success at the pro level and if possible, any hardware (trophies, awards, etc) that they've won.

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08-26-2008, 02:55 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by LEIFey View Post
well, id start by finding comparable statistics, like career save% and GAA (though this stat tends to be inflated by poor teams). also, look at success at the pro level and if possible, any hardware (trophies, awards, etc) that they've won.
Thats the tough thing about goalies that their stats get inflated by the team.

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Old
08-26-2008, 03:01 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by LEIFey View Post
well, id start by finding comparable statistics, like career save% and GAA (though this stat tends to be inflated by poor teams). also, look at success at the pro level and if possible, any hardware (trophies, awards, etc) that they've won.
I already tried that. Its no use. Stat-based arguments carry no weight here. Statistics have virtually no correlation to a players' actual value. Value is determined solely by polls and rankings.

It's kinda like getting pulled over for speeding...

Police Officer: Do you have any idea how fast you were going?
Dumb Driver: Yes officer, I was doing 63 mph.
Police Officer: No, I clocked you doing 76 in a 65 mph zone on my radar gun.
Dumb Driver: That can't be right. I just polled all 5 passengers in my vehicle, and the consensus is that I was only doing 63. Ya know, sometimes those numbers on your radar gun aren't correct. Its a bad judge of the actual speed of my vehicle.
Police Officer: But the radar gun is the best way we have to tell exactly how fast you were going.
Dumb Driver: C'mon officer! I mean, even my wife always complains about how slow I drive. Out of all my friends, I was ranked the slowest driver, and the one least likely to speed.
Police Officer: Well, you convinced me. I can't believe I was naive enough to bring the radar gun into this discussion. If you and your passengers say you weren't speeding, then that must be fact. I am very sorry to bother you. Carry on, and remember, buckle up!

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Old
08-26-2008, 03:05 PM
  #107
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Flyers get burned alive.

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Old
08-26-2008, 03:25 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tripod View Post
To Flyers-Toskala, Kaberle, Antropov

To Leafs-Biron, Carter, Knuble, Parent
Huge trade lol.

Well, I think I'd be more inclined to agree with than not to agree with: Toskala>Biron
I think that Kaberle has more trade value than Carter. Antropov is in his prime and Knuble is aging. Parent doesn't make up the difference. Leafs hang the phone up on this one.

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08-26-2008, 03:29 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by bornfromjets View Post
He never did. It was Carter and First for Kabs. There might have even been a project prospect headed to T.O. as well but I'm not 100% on that. But Carter and a First was for sure.
He never said that either. The whole Carter thing was a rumour and suddenly now everyone believes it. It was only "for sure" in people's imaginations, and it apparently lives on to this day.

All we do know is, as per a direct quote from Holmgren, that *A* deal was on the table at the deadline that both parties were amenable to, and Kaberle nixed it. That's it, that's all.

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08-26-2008, 03:30 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Charon View Post
Huge trade lol.

Well, I think I'd be more inclined to agree with than not to agree with: Toskala>Biron
I think that Kaberle has more trade value than Carter. Antropov is in his prime and Knuble is aging. Parent doesn't make up the difference. Leafs hang the phone up on this one.
Biron>Toskala.

Kaberle and Carter hold about equal trade value.

Knuble is aging but still a 30 goal guy.

Antropov may be in his prime, but that doesn't say a lot. The guy had one 56 point season benefiting from playing a lot with Sundin. To boot, it took 10 years from draft day to hit the 50+ point mark. He's injury prone and too inconsistent. He puts up 10 points in 10 games and then is invisible for the next ten. The guy hit his ceiling last year. Without Sundin, look for him to hit 45 points this year.

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08-26-2008, 03:33 PM
  #111
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this is getting nasty.

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08-26-2008, 03:34 PM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowFlyer View Post
I already tried that. Its no use. Stat-based arguments carry no weight here. Statistics have virtually no correlation to a players' actual value. Value is determined solely by polls and rankings.

It's kinda like getting pulled over for speeding...

Police Officer: Do you have any idea how fast you were going?
Dumb Driver: Yes officer, I was doing 63 mph.
Police Officer: No, I clocked you doing 76 in a 65 mph zone on my radar gun.
Dumb Driver: That can't be right. I just polled all 5 passengers in my vehicle, and the consensus is that I was only doing 63. Ya know, sometimes those numbers on your radar gun aren't correct. Its a bad judge of the actual speed of my vehicle.
Police Officer: But the radar gun is the best way we have to tell exactly how fast you were going.
Dumb Driver: C'mon officer! I mean, even my wife always complains about how slow I drive. Out of all my friends, I was ranked the slowest driver, and the one least likely to speed.
Police Officer: Well, you convinced me. I can't believe I was naive enough to bring the radar gun into this discussion. If you and your passengers say you weren't speeding, then that must be fact. I am very sorry to bother you. Carry on, and remember, buckle up!
A radar gun tells your speed. A radar gun won't tell you how good your car is. A Ford Focus could be going faster then a Ferrari, I guess you'd want a Focus.

GAA and SV% don't tell you how good a goalie is, just how many goals he gives up per game, and percentage of shots saved per season.

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Old
08-26-2008, 03:43 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Chocolate Skittles View Post
A radar gun tells your speed. A radar gun won't tell you how good your car is. A Ford Focus could be going faster then a Ferrari, I guess you'd want a Focus.

GAA and SV% don't tell you how good a goalie is, just how many goals he gives up per game, and percentage of shots saved per season.
Yet none of the top goalies in the league have a horrible GAA and save %.

Stats don't tell you everything, but they do tell you a lot. Of course you always have to factor in other variables, but you factor them into the stats.

IE...In 03/04 Roberto Luongo had a 2.43 GAA and a .931 save % playing on a horrible team. He faced over 500 more shots than the next highest goalie. If he has a save % of below .900 nobody talks about how good of a year he had. Regardless of how bad the team played in front of him.


Last edited by Brassballers*: 08-26-2008 at 03:48 PM.
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Old
08-26-2008, 03:44 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chocolate Skittles View Post
A radar gun tells your speed . A radar gun won't tell you how good your car's engine is.

GAA and SV% don't tell you how good of a goalie you are, they tell you how many goals you give up per game on average, and what percentage of shotssave you .
Thanks Captain Obvious....

I really wasn't sure what GAA and SV% stood for. Glad you could clear that up for me.

Clearly, stats have no correlation to how good a player is. A players' value is gauged solely by polls and rankings.

Here's a thought: The Leafs can keep the superior Toskala and his 2.74 GAA and .904 SV% from last season, and the Flyers will try to "get by" with Biron's 2.59 GAA and .918 SV%. Okies?

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08-26-2008, 03:54 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Brassballers View Post
Yet none of the top goalies in the league have a horrible GAA and save %.

Stats don't tell you everything, but they do tell you a lot.
You cut out the part on my 'terrible' analogy. I guess you realized you were wrong and took it out.

GAA, SV% are a goaltending/defence stat too me. The Kings give up a lot of shots per game, that's why a crappy goalie like Labarbera has a good SV%. OR how Biron has an inflated one with the Flyers. Both teams (Kings and Flyers) give up 32 a game (bottom 4).

The Leafs' GAA, 3.12, Toskala's GAA 2.74.. Diff of 0.38.
The Flyers' GAA, 2.77, Biron's GAA 2.59 .. Diff of 0.18.

Quality chances? Tor has the 2nd worst PK in the league by .1. The Flyer's are top 10.

All the top goalies in the league also play behind better D systems in terms of shots against and PK.

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Old
08-26-2008, 03:57 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by ShadowFlyer View Post
Thanks Captain Obvious....

I really wasn't sure what GAA and SV% stood for. Glad you could clear that up for me.

Clearly, stats have no correlation to how good a player is. A players' value is gauged solely by polls and rankings.

Here's a thought: The Leafs can keep the superior Toskala and his 2.74 GAA and .904 SV% from last season, and the Flyers will try to "get by" with Biron's 2.59 GAA and .918 SV%. Okies?
It seemed the obvious was escaping your grasp.

There isn't a single Leaf fan that wants to trade Toskala for Biron.

There are a few who think Carter is a franchise player and would give up Kaberle for him. Seriously, Carter is the most overrated player by Leafs fans.

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08-26-2008, 04:19 PM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chocolate Skittles View Post
It seemed the obvious was escaping your grasp.
Or maybe you aren't so good at detecting sarcasm?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chocolate Skittles View Post
There isn't a single Leaf fan that wants to trade Toskala for Biron.
Good! Refer to the "Here's a Thought" portion of my previous post, and we can all agree to just move on. Okies?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chocolate Skittles View Post
There are a few who think Carter is a franchise player and would give up Kaberle for him. Seriously, Carter is the most overrated player by Leafs fans.
Then let's be sure to let all of Leaf Nation know to stop inquiring about Carter, OK? Toronto can keep all of their wonderful players, and the Flyers will just have to settle with moving forward, led by all of our "overrated" players. Sounds good to me.

Are we done here?

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Old
08-26-2008, 04:31 PM
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chocolate Skittles View Post
It seemed the obvious was escaping your grasp.

There isn't a single Leaf fan that wants to trade Toskala for Biron.

There are a few who think Carter is a franchise player and would give up Kaberle for him. Seriously, Carter is the most overrated player by Leafs fans.
This Leaf fan would give up Kaberle for Carter.

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08-26-2008, 04:41 PM
  #119
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It appears Leafs fans would not give up Kaberle for Carter and Flyers fans would not give up Carter for Kaberle. This trade would never, ever happen.

(note: clearly this doesn't apply to everyone)

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08-26-2008, 04:44 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
It appears Leafs fans would not give up Kaberle for Carter and Flyers fans would not give up Carter for Kaberle. This trade would never, ever happen.

(note: clearly this doesn't apply to everyone)
I'm a hater of both teams.

I'd give up Kaberle for Carter.

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08-26-2008, 04:58 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by DUHockey9 View Post
It appears Leafs fans would not give up Kaberle for Carter and Flyers fans would not give up Carter for Kaberle. This trade would never, ever happen.

(note: clearly this doesn't apply to everyone)

Because it's the fans that ultimately decide on who gets traded for who

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Old
08-26-2008, 05:00 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Chocolate Skittles View Post
You cut out the part on my 'terrible' analogy. I guess you realized you were wrong and took it out.

GAA, SV% are a goaltending/defence stat too me. The Kings give up a lot of shots per game, that's why a crappy goalie like Labarbera has a good SV%. OR how Biron has an inflated one with the Flyers. Both teams (Kings and Flyers) give up 32 a game (bottom 4).

The Leafs' GAA, 3.12, Toskala's GAA 2.74.. Diff of 0.38.
The Flyers' GAA, 2.77, Biron's GAA 2.59 .. Diff of 0.18.

Quality chances? Tor has the 2nd worst PK in the league by .1. The Flyer's are top 10.

All the top goalies in the league also play behind better D systems in terms of shots against and PK.
Problem with your analysis.

1. Raycroft was so bad in the games he played that the Leafs' GAA average is inflated. All your first comparison show is how bad Raycroft was.

2. You insinuate that the Flyers good PK and the Leafs bad PK has nothing to do with goaltending and everything to do with the 4 skaters in front of the goalie. Toskala faced 26 more shots on the PK in 4 more games then Biron. Not a huge difference in shots. The difference was Biron only let in 43 PP goals. Toskala let in 55.

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Old
08-26-2008, 05:08 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Chocolate Skittles View Post
There are a few who think Carter is a franchise player and would give up Kaberle for him. Seriously, Carter is the most overrated player by Leafs fans.
I like Carter, but he might be the most overrated player on HF right now.

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Old
08-26-2008, 05:12 PM
  #124
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I like Carter, but he might be the most overrated player on HF right now.
That is said so often that it's IMPOSSIBLE for him to be the most overrated player on HF right now.

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08-26-2008, 05:12 PM
  #125
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I like Carter, but he might be the most overrated player on HF right now.
If he was given 1st unit PP time he'd be a 70-80 point scorer. IMO, he'll be better then Mike Richards.

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