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Jagrs dad gives his 2 cents on last season.

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Old
08-26-2008, 09:12 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr. View Post
Who is this guy, the Carl Lindros of the Czech Republic?

You know it's just sour grapes when he feels the need to cite 1997-2004. The Rangers saved him from hockey hell in Washington, made him the centerpiece of the organization, allowed him to select roster and linemates and even dictate the game strategy. Are parting shots really necessary for a team that OBVIOUSLY was far from perfect?
To be fair, he was getting results while doing that.

I'd love/loathe to see the team Jagr and Sather could've worked out if he had his way.

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08-26-2008, 09:21 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by nyrmessier011 View Post
His father is right. The teams of the late 90s/early 2000s were so poorly constructed, whether it was all Glen or pressure from Dolan I doubt we will never find out. What really pisses me off about this off-season is that I see almost an identical situation going on. And Sather should 100% get the axe if we don't qualify for the playoffs.
My sentiments exactly. I see a battle for the 8th playoff spot and Henrik having an award winning Vezina year in net BUT if we don't make the playoffs I doubt Sather will get the axe. I think Renney would lose his position before Sather does, unfortunately.

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08-27-2008, 06:45 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
you know, im not sure i can argue with anything the guy says there.
Agreed. The team simply wasn't built to accommodate Jagr's style of play. The team was going in a different direction, nothing anyone can really do about it. What we had wasn't working.

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08-27-2008, 07:41 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by alphaqup View Post
Agreed. The team simply wasn't built to accommodate Jagr's style of play. The team was going in a different direction, nothing anyone can really do about it. What we had wasn't working.
I think there is a problem when a superstar player needs a team to accomodate his style of play.

With Jagr there always seemed to be strings attached to his production.

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08-27-2008, 07:45 AM
  #30
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A Bunch of Malarki

This is a bunch of Malarki.

I keep hearing how Jagr couldn't play the style we were dictating.

That's just ridiculous, he should have adapted his style to fit the team, instead of expecting the team to change to fit him.

There are lots of other players out there who have had to change their style to a team orientated game.

Jagr was elite, but not the super-elite, the joe sakics, mike modanos, wayne gretzkys were players that would change their "style" to best fit the team.

Sakic for example has played with so many linemates its not funny, and he still produced with them. Why couldn't Jagr?

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08-27-2008, 08:29 AM
  #31
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People seem to forget that Jagr still managed to lead the team in scoring despite "not producing".

People also seem to forget that he did change his game to accommodate the Rangers style of play -- and his personal production suffered for it. Never before in his career had he spent the time backchecking and playing in his own zone that he did last year (and anyone who denies he backchecked last year wasn't watching). Given the increased attention to defense Renney's system required, why is it so shocking that his production dropped? Chris Drury didn't have a career year scoring-wise last season either. Damn him for not being able to put the same numbers he put up on a high-flying Sabres team under the Rangers defense-first system!

And as for Sather "rescuing" Jagr from hockey hell in Washington... Jagr also rescued Slats from himself and this organization from 7 years of non-playoff hell. It's was a two way street.

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08-27-2008, 08:50 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nyrmessier011 View Post
His father is right. The teams of the late 90s/early 2000s were so poorly constructed...
AND? How did the 1999 Rangers effect Jaromir Jagr's career in any way shape or form?

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Originally Posted by DevFan-RU- View Post
To be fair, he was getting results while doing that.
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Originally Posted by squishy View Post
People seem to forget that Jagr still managed to lead the team in scoring despite "not producing".
Who says Jagr wasn't producing? He was clearly carrying the team offensively from the day he got here to the day he left.

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Originally Posted by squishy View Post
And as for Sather "rescuing" Jagr from hockey hell in Washington... Jagr also rescued Slats from himself and this organization from 7 years of non-playoff hell. It's was a two way street.
If it wasn't a team built around Jagr coming out the lockout, it would have been a team built around someone else.

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08-27-2008, 10:20 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr. View Post
Who says Jagr wasn't producing? He was clearly carrying the team offensively from the day he got here to the day he left.
I quote the post directly above my response:

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Originally Posted by MikeyGSpot View Post
Sakic for example has played with so many linemates its not funny, and he still produced with them. Why couldn't Jagr?

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Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr. View Post
If it wasn't a team built around Jagr coming out the lockout, it would have been a team built around someone else.
Yeah, and how well did those "someone elses" the team was built around work out in the 6 years before Jagr got here?

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08-27-2008, 10:40 AM
  #34
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His dad seems like an old stuck up snob!
He needs to stop blaming our organization because Jags didnt do well. Its Jags own fault that he didnt play very good.

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08-27-2008, 10:41 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squishy View Post
I quote the post directly above my response:

Yeah, and how well did those "someone elses" the team was built around work out in the 6 years before Jagr got here?
Sorry, 2 people quoted my post and commented on "lack of production". My bad.

I don't think the potential fortunes of the team without Jagr changes the fact they rolled out the red carpet for guy and basically let him run the team. I have my doubts that he could have gone anywhere else and been given such an influential role, which is why I'm taking issue with his insinuation that the Rangers stood in the way of him reaching his goal.

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08-27-2008, 10:58 AM
  #36
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Some of the things are spot on. A poster or two from here I believe said already in preseason that the way Drury and Gomez played didn't suit Jaro as well as Nylanders type of playmaking did.

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08-27-2008, 11:05 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr. View Post
Sorry, 2 people quoted my post and commented on "lack of production". My bad.

I don't think the potential fortunes of the team without Jagr changes the fact they rolled out the red carpet for guy and basically let him run the team. I have my doubts that he could have gone anywhere else and been given such an influential role, which is why I'm taking issue with his insinuation that the Rangers stood in the way of him reaching his goal.
The Rangers did stand in his way of reaching his goal last year. Sather ruined one of the best lines in hockey, did nothing to upgrade our defense (thus making us use an extremely defensive system weaking our offense), and threw a hodgepodge of players togother hoping that they could form some chemsitry.

All we needed after the 06-07 season was a second line center and another good dman. That was it. We had plenty of cap room to get both. Instead we lost our first line center, replaced it w/ Captain Cash and Gomer who both good #2 centers but neither are really #1 centers but both are being paid as if they are Lecalvalier. This destroyed our PP, as neither works a PP nearly as good as Nylander did. In fact Drury doesnt work a PP at all he just captilizes on rebounds (like a better version of Peter Prucha) also one making 5x his salary. Granted he is 5x the player Prucha is.

We had Cullen who should've run the PP and play 3C or even on Gomez's wing to let dubi play 3c.(Renney you still suck at making line combo's). Basically getting the Dman would have been the hardest part. Just imagine this lineup.

Straka-Nylander-Jagr
Cullen-Gomez-Shanny
Avery-Dubi-(dawes/Cally/prucha)
scraps.

that would have been much much much better than what we fielded last year.

and than the extra money could have been used on a dman. heck maybe we could have even put up a great offer for Bouwmeester. Like Sangs, a 1st and something else. After all we would have plenty of cap room to resign him, and FLA is horrible at making trades.

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08-27-2008, 11:18 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rags225 View Post
The Rangers did stand in his way of reaching his goal last year. Sather ruined one of the best lines in hockey, did nothing to upgrade our defense (thus making us use an extremely defensive system weaking our offense), and threw a hodgepodge of players togother hoping that they could form some chemsitry.
Sather made a fair offer the keep the "best line in hockey" intact. The player that rejected that offer ultimately "ruined" it.

And, oh boy, wouldn't it be great to watch Jagr leave the league this summer, but still have 3 more years of Nylander ahead of us. I'm sure his 40th birthday celebration would have made it so worth it though.

I'm not following this logic that you should throw inflated, multi-year contracts at over-the-hill players who ride coat-tails, but not UFA's in their prime. It seems like some of your are suggesting that, if you've ever worn a NYR sweater, fiscal responsibility and common sense should just be thrown out the window.

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08-27-2008, 11:30 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr. View Post
Sather made a fair offer the keep the "best line in hockey" intact. The player that rejected that offer ultimately "ruined" it.

And, oh boy, wouldn't it be great to watch Jagr leave the league this summer, but still have 3 more years of Nylander ahead of us. I'm sure his 40th birthday celebration would have made it so worth it though.

I'm not following this logic that you should throw inflated, multi-year contracts at over-the-hill players who ride coat-tails, but not UFA's in their prime. It seems like some of your are suggesting that, if you've ever worn a NYR sweater, fiscal responsibility and common sense should just be thrown out the window.
are you insinuiating that Gomez's, Drury's, and Redden's contracts are fiscally responsible? B/c in fact they are the exact opposite. They are wreckless spending. Gomez and Drury are being paid as top centers in the league, as elite players. They aren't. Then we sign Redden a player coming off his worst two years, who is over thirty to a 6 year $6.5mil/year contract. That is not fiscally responsible whatsoever. That is just plain dumb.

Also do you really think Jagr would have left after last season if Nylander was still here? No, the Rangers basically forced Jagr to leave this year. they put players around him who play a compltetly different style, left no cap flexibility, and got rid of everybody he was comfortable w/ basically. All while trying to make it look (and succeeding by some people's posts here) that the NYR are innocent and Jagr was the bad guy. Well i got news for you. NYR are not innocent, they forced him to leave, they mismanaged the cap for the next couple years, and made 2 aboslutely horrible signings (Captain Cash and Redden) in hopes of covering it up.

Also what I find amazing is how people (not saying you) defend Reddens siginig even though he is coming off of 2 real bad years @ $6.5 mil, and could very well be at the beginning of the end of his career for 6 years. which will leave him at 37 but absolutely abhor the thought at signing Nylander (a player playing fantastic hockey, become one of the best setup men in the league) for 4 years at which time he will be 40, which by the way would make Jagr keep playing at a high level and cheap for another year b/c he would have hit his point incentives. makes absolutely no sense.

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08-27-2008, 11:36 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr. View Post
Sather made a fair offer the keep the "best line in hockey" intact. The player that rejected that offer ultimately "ruined" it.

And, oh boy, wouldn't it be great to watch Jagr leave the league this summer, but still have 3 more years of Nylander ahead of us. I'm sure his 40th birthday celebration would have made it so worth it though.

I'm not following this logic that you should throw inflated, multi-year contracts at over-the-hill players who ride coat-tails, but not UFA's in their prime. It seems like some of your are suggesting that, if you've ever worn a NYR sweater, fiscal responsibility and common sense should just be thrown out the window.
Sather then tried to replace Jagr's center with not one but two centers. Not a bad sign to me.

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08-27-2008, 12:01 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Rags225 View Post
Also what I find amazing is how people (not saying you) defend Reddens siginig even though he is coming off of 2 real bad years @ $6.5 mil, and could very well be at the beginning of the end of his career for 6 years. which will leave him at 37 but absolutely abhor the thought at signing Nylander (a player playing fantastic hockey, become one of the best setup men in the league) for 4 years at which time he will be 40, which by the way would make Jagr keep playing at a high level and cheap for another year b/c he would have hit his point incentives. makes absolutely no sense.
I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone that would classify Redden's contract as anything but "troubling", AT BEST.

After Nylander's season ending injury last year, I can't see how he's anything but a case study on why you'd have to be smoking crack to hand out that kind of contract to someone over 35. I'd be surprised if he EVER returns to form, nevermind make himself a productive 1st liner at 40 worthy of a $5M cap hit.

We're of 2 different mindsets regarding just how competitive and close to success the past 3 Ranger teams were, which makes this discussion pretty pointless.

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08-27-2008, 12:21 PM
  #42
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Also what I find amazing is how people (not saying you) defend Reddens siginig even though he is coming off of 2 real bad years @ $6.5 mil, and could very well be at the beginning of the end of his career for 6 years. which will leave him at 37 but absolutely abhor the thought at signing Nylander (a player playing fantastic hockey, become one of the best setup men in the league) for 4 years at which time he will be 40, which by the way would make Jagr keep playing at a high level and cheap for another year b/c he would have hit his point incentives. makes absolutely no sense.
One of the best set-up men in the league, yet only managed to put up 3 more assists in his best season as a Ranger than Gomez did in his first season as a Ranger? Playing fantastic hockey from the LTIR after wrecking his shoulder and needing surgery?

Redden has the potential to be one of the best two-way d-men in the league. Obviously Sather has faith in him and I can assure you that the Rangers staff has seen much more of Redden than you or I have. The guy not only loses his defensive partner to free agency, which has a tremendous psychological effect on a player, but to top it off his mother dies? Then to have the entire fan-base and the organization itself try to run you out of town? I beg you to find me a guy that wouldn't have trouble dealing with that kind of pressure.

STOP comparing Drury or Gomez's salary to guys like Lecavalier. There is absolutely no comparison to draw there. Drury and Gomez were two of the best centers to hit free agency in a while and you're mad we had to break open the bank to get them? Do you think if Vinny hit the market today he'd get 7 million per year? PLEASE! Top-tier players are at a premium and you HAVE to pay to get them.

Gomez, with the right players on his line, has 85+ point upside (15-20G 60-70A). Don't kid yourself, he is one of the best passing centers in the league. If you're relying on him to score goals, you're wasting your time.

Drury has shown he has the ability to score 30+ goals and come up with clutch performances. He brings leadership, experience, elite two-way ability and untouchable work ethic to a team full of young talent. He's exactly the guy I want in the locker room bringing along guys like Zherdev, Callahan, Dubinsky, Korpikoski, Cherepanov, Anisimov, etc.

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08-27-2008, 12:35 PM
  #43
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One of the best set-up men in the league, yet only managed to put up 3 more assists in his best season as a Ranger than Gomez did in his first season as a Ranger?
Gomez not exactly glued to a scoring leader last year either.

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08-27-2008, 01:15 PM
  #44
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are you insinuiating that Gomez's, Drury's, and Redden's contracts are fiscally responsible? B/c in fact they are the exact opposite. They are wreckless spending. Gomez and Drury are being paid as top centers in the league, as elite players. They aren't. Then we sign Redden a player coming off his worst two years, who is over thirty to a 6 year $6.5mil/year contract. That is not fiscally responsible whatsoever. That is just plain dumb.

Also do you really think Jagr would have left after last season if Nylander was still here? No, the Rangers basically forced Jagr to leave this year. they put players around him who play a compltetly different style, left no cap flexibility, and got rid of everybody he was comfortable w/ basically. All while trying to make it look (and succeeding by some people's posts here) that the NYR are innocent and Jagr was the bad guy. Well i got news for you. NYR are not innocent, they forced him to leave, they mismanaged the cap for the next couple years, and made 2 aboslutely horrible signings (Captain Cash and Redden) in hopes of covering it up.

Also what I find amazing is how people (not saying you) defend Reddens siginig even though he is coming off of 2 real bad years @ $6.5 mil, and could very well be at the beginning of the end of his career for 6 years. which will leave him at 37 but absolutely abhor the thought at signing Nylander (a player playing fantastic hockey, become one of the best setup men in the league) for 4 years at which time he will be 40, which by the way would make Jagr keep playing at a high level and cheap for another year b/c he would have hit his point incentives. makes absolutely no sense.
Leave Redden out of this.

Sather replaced Nylander with two better players for Jagr.

A younger, better and more versatile Drury got one more year than Nylander.

Gomez got a long term deal that will end when Gomez is younger than Nylander was last year.

I can't believe we're still on this.

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08-27-2008, 01:31 PM
  #45
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One of the best set-up men in the league, yet only managed to put up 3 more assists in his best season as a Ranger than Gomez did in his first season as a Ranger? Playing fantastic hockey from the LTIR after wrecking his shoulder and needing surgery?
and if he was on the Rangers he wouldn't have been playing that game maybe he wouldn't have gotten injured. what happens if Gomez gets a severe injury this year. you going to change your opinion? There is no guarantee Nylander would or wouldn't have gotten injured if he was still a ranger.

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Redden has the potential to be one of the best two-way d-men in the league. Obviously Sather has faith in him and I can assure you that the Rangers staff has seen much more of Redden than you or I have. The guy not only loses his defensive partner to free agency, which has a tremendous psychological effect on a player, but to top it off his mother dies? Then to have the entire fan-base and the organization itself try to run you out of town? I beg you to find me a guy that wouldn't have trouble dealing with that kind of pressure.
They did the same w/ Marian Hossa there, and he still performed well. Sudnin was up for trade rumers and played well. many players have played well when facing obstacles, some rise to the occasion others don't. And about losing his partner, well now he has a new partner, so are you going to make excuses for that. Or how about high expectations because of his salary. is that another excuse in the making? How about if fans boo him for poor play, should we make that excuse ready as well. Fact is we have no clue how he will handle NY pressure, and he just had two bad seasons. it doesn't exactly endorse $6.5 million. Also don't you think there was a reason Ottawa fans didn't like him. or how about this, maybe he wasn't the great player but Chara was. Maybe Chara covered up all his mistakes and gave him more leeway and freedom.

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STOP comparing Drury or Gomez's salary to guys like Lecavalier. There is absolutely no comparison to draw there. Drury and Gomez were two of the best centers to hit free agency in a while and you're mad we had to break open the bank to get them? Do you think if Vinny hit the market today he'd get 7 million per year? PLEASE! Top-tier players are at a premium and you HAVE to pay to get them.
Sorry, but in a Salary cap world, players DESERVE to be compared by salary. you make it, you earn it. He has not earned that salary and so it is a detriment for the team, as that $7mil could have been spent better otherwise.


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Gomez, with the right players on his line, has 85+ point upside (15-20G 60-70A). Don't kid yourself, he is one of the best passing centers in the league. If you're relying on him to score goals, you're wasting your time.
ok, how do you know he has 85 pt upside? he has only hit over 71 pts 1 time in his ENTIRE Career and NEVER 85pts. And that was playing w/ Elias who is better than any winger we have right now. In fact Elias was one of the best wingers in the NHL for a couple years. he is a 70-75 pt player for the sole fact that he doesn't score much at all. He will get his 50 assts a year but because he is only a 15 goal scorer he won't hit 85 pts.

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Drury has shown he has the ability to score 30+ goals and come up with clutch performances. He brings leadership, experience, elite two-way ability and untouchable work ethic to a team full of young talent. He's exactly the guy I want in the locker room bringing along guys like Zherdev, Callahan, Dubinsky, Korpikoski, Cherepanov, Anisimov, etc.
Drury has scored 30+ goals 2x. They were w/ Buffalo who plays a wide open game, as in the exact opposite as the Rangers defensive schemes. Besides those two years he has hit 25 only ONCE and that was last year. he is not exactly a shoe in for 30+ goals.

But hey you wanna argue potential fine... but you can't change STATS b/c those are the facts, and that is what these players are.

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08-27-2008, 01:35 PM
  #46
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what happens if Gomez gets a severe injury this year. you going to change your opinion?
At least Gomez can go on LTIR and the Rangers can clear the cap hit. Nylander could die and Washington is stuck with his cap hit through 2012.

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08-27-2008, 01:36 PM
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Leave Redden out of this.

Sather replaced Nylander with two better players for Jagr.

A younger, better and more versatile Drury got one more year than Nylander.

Gomez got a long term deal that will end when Gomez is younger than Nylander was last year.

I can't believe we're still on this.
I brought in Redden b/c you said fiscally responsible, which is the exact opposite of that contract so it has some merit. But fine leave that out.

Drury is not better offensiviely than Nylander, and if you forget is about $3 mil more. that $3mil could have been used on other pressing needs that season such as defensemen.

I'm not made at the Gomez deal, which in fact I really don't have much of a problem w/. yeah its overpayment, but he is a playmaking center which is what the team Needed last year.

There was absolutely NO NEED for Drury last year. None, whatsoever.

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08-27-2008, 01:38 PM
  #48
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At least Gomez can go on LTIR and the Rangers can clear the cap hit. Nylander could die and Washington is stuck with his cap hit through 2012.
does nylander have a NMC?

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08-27-2008, 01:40 PM
  #49
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I brought in Redden b/c you said fiscally responsible, which is the exact opposite of that contract so it has some merit. But fine leave that out.

Drury is not better offensiviely than Nylander, and if you forget is about $3 mil more. that $3mil could have been used on other pressing needs that season such as defensemen.

I'm not made at the Gomez deal, which in fact I really don't have much of a problem w/. yeah its overpayment, but he is a playmaking center which is what the team Needed last year.

There was absolutely NO NEED for Drury last year. None, whatsoever.
There certainly was a need. The Rangers needed two centers:

1. To replace Nylander.

2. A second line center so they didn't have the likes of Sean Avery as their second line center.

And Drury is a much better player than Nylander.

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08-27-2008, 01:41 PM
  #50
KreiMeARiver*
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UES
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I agree the team/NA is/was north-south, and sometimes lacks creativity....but...

I didn't read anything addressing why his son only skated 30% of the time.

no one player is bigger than the team, nor should the team create their whole style of play to cater to one player.

thanks for the memories...but peace out

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