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Jagrs dad gives his 2 cents on last season.

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Old
08-27-2008, 01:47 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner View Post
does nylander have a NMC?
Actually, you're right. His rights could be traded away for cap relief, a la Malakhov, or was it Mogilny?

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08-27-2008, 01:48 PM
  #52
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There certainly was a need. The Rangers needed two centers:

1. To replace Nylander.

2. A second line center so they didn't have the likes of Sean Avery as their second line center.

And Drury is a much better player than Nylander.
there was no Need to replace Nylander. therefore they only needed one. Heck you could have let him play 3 years Jagr would have at least played 2 of them and than buy him out the last year. Which is still a better option that Drury @7million per season. heck I would rather of had Avery @ 2ndline center for one year than Drury @7million for 5 years. That's how horrible I think that contract is. I think this contract is the WORST signing since the cap up until Redden's but maybe Redden will surprise us and recapture his form from 3 years ago.

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08-27-2008, 01:54 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Rags225 View Post
there was no Need to replace Nylander. therefore they only needed one. Heck you could have let him play 3 years Jagr would have at least played 2 of them and than buy him out the last year. Which is still a better option that Drury @7million per season. heck I would rather of had Avery @ 2ndline center for one year than Drury @7million for 5 years. That's how horrible I think that contract is. I think this contract is the WORST signing since the cap up until Redden's but maybe Redden will surprise us and recapture his form from 3 years ago.
There was a need once he priced himself out by asking for a contract that paid him until he was 39.

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08-27-2008, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Rags225 View Post
there was no Need to replace Nylander. therefore they only needed one. Heck you could have let him play 3 years Jagr would have at least played 2 of them and than buy him out the last year. Which is still a better option that Drury @7million per season. heck I would rather of had Avery @ 2ndline center for one year than Drury @7million for 5 years. That's how horrible I think that contract is. I think this contract is the WORST signing since the cap up until Redden's but maybe Redden will surprise us and recapture his form from 3 years ago.
We just have to hope that these new FA moves in 08 can make the 07 moves worth it. Cuz right now the 07 moves + losing Avery are looking pretty terrible.

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08-27-2008, 01:56 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
There was a need once he priced himself out by asking for a contract that paid him until he was 39.
and there was also much better alternatives. we chose the absolute WORST one.

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08-27-2008, 01:57 PM
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I very curious to see how many Drury defenders there will be if he puts up another 55pt season and the Rangers don't make the PO's. It's going to be funny as hell.

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08-27-2008, 02:03 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Rags225 View Post
I very curious to see how many Drury defenders there will be if he puts up another 55pt season and the Rangers don't make the PO's. It's going to be funny as hell.
The fortunes of the Rangers no longer hinge on a single player. That's the whole point.

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08-27-2008, 02:12 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Rags225 View Post
and there was also much better alternatives. we chose the absolute WORST one.

There were? Who?

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08-27-2008, 02:15 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Rags225 View Post
I very curious to see how many Drury defenders there will be if he puts up another 55pt season and the Rangers don't make the PO's. It's going to be funny as hell.
If the Rangers are banking on Drury to lead them to the playoffs, something is very wrong.

Put your hate Drury aside for a second and answer me this: can you really judge Drury's value by the number of points he scores?

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08-27-2008, 02:19 PM
  #60
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and if he was on the Rangers he wouldn't have been playing that game maybe he wouldn't have gotten injured. what happens if Gomez gets a severe injury this year. you going to change your opinion? There is no guarantee Nylander would or wouldn't have gotten injured if he was still a ranger.
His shoulder was a cause for concern going into the off season. He was going to have to have the surgery eventually.

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They did the same w/ Marian Hossa there, and he still performed well. Sudnin was up for trade rumers and played well. many players have played well when facing obstacles, some rise to the occasion others don't. And about losing his partner, well now he has a new partner, so are you going to make excuses for that. Or how about high expectations because of his salary. is that another excuse in the making? How about if fans boo him for poor play, should we make that excuse ready as well. Fact is we have no clue how he will handle NY pressure, and he just had two bad seasons. it doesn't exactly endorse $6.5 million. Also don't you think there was a reason Ottawa fans didn't like him. or how about this, maybe he wasn't the great player but Chara was. Maybe Chara covered up all his mistakes and gave him more leeway and freedom.
Hossa was traded for Dany Heatly, do you really want to compare the two situations?

Sundin was going to be a rental and given the crap he's putting teams through now, getting a deadline return for him would have been a great move.

Redden's next partner was either Mezaros, Volchenkov or Philips. Don't even bother trying to compare any of them to Chara. Redden, even on a bad year, was the best d-man on that team. How many Sens games do you watch? If he had such a bad season, please, point out a few examples of bad plays. You're tossing the guy aside as a failure before he's set foot on the ice at the Garden. Typical.


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Sorry, but in a Salary cap world, players DESERVE to be compared by salary. you make it, you earn it. He has not earned that salary and so it is a detriment for the team, as that $7mil could have been spent better otherwise.
In a salary cap world, people need to realize that players salaries CANNOT be compared if one was acquired via free agency, and the other was re-signed long-term before testing the open market.

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ok, how do you know he has 85 pt upside? he has only hit over 71 pts 1 time in his ENTIRE Career and NEVER 85pts. And that was playing w/ Elias who is better than any winger we have right now. In fact Elias was one of the best wingers in the NHL for a couple years. he is a 70-75 pt player for the sole fact that he doesn't score much at all. He will get his 50 assts a year but because he is only a 15 goal scorer he won't hit 85 pts.
Okay, so he has 84 point upside.

He scored 84 points in the 38 games Elias played that season?

54 assists is pretty impressive on a team that had problems scoring goals. He needs scoring wingers that can keep up with him. Not aging players like Shanny or dipsy-doodle skate-in-circle wingers like Jagr.

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Drury has scored 30+ goals 2x. They were w/ Buffalo who plays a wide open game, as in the exact opposite as the Rangers defensive schemes. Besides those two years he has hit 25 only ONCE and that was last year. he is not exactly a shoe in for 30+ goals.
And he scored 25 goals this year on the 3rd line of a defensively minded team while the lines were built to cater to Jagr. If he's actually on a line with players that fit his style, you don't think he can easily score 30 goals again?

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But hey you wanna argue potential fine... but you can't change STATS b/c those are the facts, and that is what these players are.
Stats also say Marek Malik was one of the best defensive defensemen in the league thanks to his +/- rating.

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08-27-2008, 02:19 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
There were? Who?
The most obvious was Nylander. Which is still a better option.

Cullen was a better option b/c you still have $4.5 mill left in cap room to put into defense, or maybe get a center via a trade during the deadline. Jokinen maybe?

lastly ANYBODY WHO IS NOT BEING PAID $7 mil to be a third line center, and isn't a superstar by any means.

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08-27-2008, 02:22 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
If the Rangers are banking on Drury to lead them to the playoffs, something is very wrong.

Put your hate Drury aside for a second and answer me this: can you really judge Drury's value by the number of points he scores?
W/ a $7mill contract than yes!!!! put it another way Shannahan brings more leadership, can still pot 20+ goals, great PKer still, still effective on the PP. is he worth $7 mil to you? Hell is he even worth $5mil to you. $4. $3. Would you even want him on the team?

you don't pay $7mil a year for intangibles. You pay it for points. Period. Exclamation point! and another Exclamation point!

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08-27-2008, 02:28 PM
  #63
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Actually, you're right. His rights could be traded away for cap relief, a la Malakhov, or was it Mogilny?
it was malakov but the rangers could've waived nylander if they had to...he was 34 when his contract was signed..

i'm not getting into this nylander vs drury/gomez debate...it's a hindsight debate but resigning nylander wouldn't have been as bad as say...signing naslund to a two year contract with a NMC.....

on paper i would easily take both drury and gomez over nylander but in the end it's going to cost the rangers more money....how you ask? well, chances are if nylander comes back jagr hits his bonus clause......

nylander at $5M Jagr at $4M and Gomez OR Drury at $7M vs Gomez, Drury, Naslund etc?

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08-27-2008, 02:30 PM
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W/ a $7mill contract than yes!!!! put it another way Shannahan brings more leadership, can still pot 20+ goals, great PKer still, still effective on the PP. is he worth $7 mil to you? Hell is he even worth $5mil to you. $4. $3. Would you even want him on the team?

you don't pay $7mil a year for intangibles. You pay it for points. Period. Exclamation point! and another Exclamation point!
yeah but....what about the stuff drury does on the ice that doesn't show up on the back of a hockey card....like faceoff abilty, penalty killing, etc....

you get 60 points plus all the great defensive things drury does....in the end it all equals out....

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08-27-2008, 02:38 PM
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Hossa was traded for Dany Heatly, do you really want to compare the two situations?
Forgot about heatly. he KILLED his friend, injured himself. was traded to a new team. And still performed absolutely amazing. That's a little more crap than Redden went through don't ya think. Like I said, some people rise when times get hard, others shrink.

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Redden's next partner was either Mezaros, Volchenkov or Philips. Don't even bother trying to compare any of them to Chara. Redden, even on a bad year, was the best d-man on that team. How many Sens games do you watch? If he had such a bad season, please, point out a few examples of bad plays. You're tossing the guy aside as a failure before he's set foot on the ice at the Garden. Typical.
Volchenkov, is a good dman. and look at Chara. Look who he has played w/. CHARA was/is the better player not Redden. It's painstakingly obvious. Typical you just making excuses. And I have not deemed Redden a failure yet. I just don't have high hopes for him. Hopefully he proves me wrong.

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In a salary cap world, people need to realize that players salaries CANNOT be compared if one was acquired via free agency, and the other was re-signed long-term before testing the open market.
I do realize that. It still doesn't make a difference though. The money is real. the cap space used is real. And you know what if he isn't going to perform at the $7mil level than don't sign him. Let some other sucker sign him and go through cap hell, buyers remorse. Nobody puts a gun to Sathers head and said you must give him $7mil. another excuse.



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Okay, so he has 84 point upside.

He scored 84 points in the 38 games Elias played that season?

54 assists is pretty impressive on a team that had problems scoring goals. He needs scoring wingers that can keep up with him. Not aging players like Shanny or dipsy-doodle skate-in-circle wingers like Jagr.
Ok great so that 1 84 pt year out of his 8 yr career. So that is the year of what he is truly like. Not the other 7 seasons, those were below average years. his 84 pt season was what he should be hitting. Where is the logic on this.

I'm tending to think that that one 84 pt season was an abberation and Gomez really is about a 70-75 pt person, for the sole fact that he doesn't score. That 84 pt year was b/c he he potted 33 goals. he has only hit half that # one other year which was his rookie year.

Potential is one thing, reaching it is another. Alexandre Daigle had a ton of potential. Didn't do much for him did it.


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And he scored 25 goals this year on the 3rd line of a defensively minded team while the lines were built to cater to Jagr. If he's actually on a line with players that fit his style, you don't think he can easily score 30 goals again?
At least Drury was 3 years out of his 9. Again this would be 33% of his career he hit 25 or more goals. Not exactly encouraging that he is a consistent 30 goal scorer. but I will give you this. I would bet that Drury will pot 30 goals easier than Gomez hitting 84 + points. But it is not a guarantee, especially since this team is void of playmaking wingers that he needs to play with.

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08-27-2008, 02:42 PM
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W/ a $7mill contract than yes!!!! put it another way Shannahan brings more leadership, can still pot 20+ goals, great PKer still, still effective on the PP. is he worth $7 mil to you? Hell is he even worth $5mil to you. $4. $3. Would you even want him on the team?

you don't pay $7mil a year for intangibles. You pay it for points. Period. Exclamation point! and another Exclamation point!
I totally agree with this!

Why is Drury such a leader in people's eyes? Because he doesn't say a word and has no personality at all? Ok, super, great. Same reason I don't think Jeter is as much of a leader as Posada or Rivera.

I think Shanahan brings more to the table than Drury...who is VASTLY overpaid, and overrated.

Will Drury ever drop the gloves with Brashear? Or really anyone? Stevens, Messier would.

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08-27-2008, 02:44 PM
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yeah but....what about the stuff drury does on the ice that doesn't show up on the back of a hockey card....like faceoff abilty, penalty killing, etc....

you get 60 points plus all the great defensive things drury does....in the end it all equals out....
no sorry it doesn't. he needs at least 75 pts to justify a $7mil contract. and what about his faceoff ability. was real great in the PO's wasn't it. I remember him losing most of the important draws especially against the Debbies. In fact it wouldn't surprise me if by the end of the year Dubi was taking the most important draws. And PKing ability. That is what 3 rd and 4th line players are for. top 6 forwards are in the top 6 for one reason and one reason only. To put up points. Defensive fowards are bottom 6. in fact one might say that he PK's to much, and that affects his even strength play.

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08-27-2008, 02:50 PM
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no sorry it doesn't. he needs at least 75 pts to justify a $7mil contract. and what about his faceoff ability. was real great in the PO's wasn't it. I remember him losing most of the important draws especially against the Debbies. In fact it wouldn't surprise me if by the end of the year Dubi was taking the most important draws. And PKing ability. That is what 3 rd and 4th line players are for. top 6 forwards are in the top 6 for one reason and one reason only. To put up points. Defensive fowards are bottom 6. in fact one might say that he PK's to much, and that affects his even strength play.
no i'm sorry it does...

i'm sorry if i don't take some guys view of what a penalty killer SHOULD be vs what a penalty killer really is...

anybody that says Drury is used TOO much on the penalty kill doesn't have a clue about asset managment...not a friggin clue...that's for "one" who might say that..


So one down series vs the devils (which is subjective) in the faceoff circle means drury is bad on faceoffs? huh?

it's not like the Rangers were the only team to bid for drury...heck even buffalo offered him the same contract...a bunch of gms vs you...hmm...it's a tough one but i'll go with the opinions of the guys who are paid to make these choices over some guy on a message board.....

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08-27-2008, 02:55 PM
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hmm...it's a tough one but i'll go with the opinions of the guys who are paid to make these choices over some guy on a message board.....
I won't....they have a lot of money to throw around/waste

they made choices that put us out of the playoffs for almost a decade.

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08-27-2008, 02:57 PM
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I won't....they have a lot of money to throw around/waste

they made choices that put us out of the playoffs for almost a decade.
i'm not even talking about just sather...

What about Darcy Regier? He offered the same EXACT contract to Drury

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08-27-2008, 03:02 PM
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no i'm sorry it does...

i'm sorry if i don't take some guys view of what a penalty killer SHOULD be vs what a penalty killer really is...

anybody that says Drury is used TOO much on the penalty kill doesn't have a clue about asset managment...not a friggin clue...that's for "one" who might say that..


So one down series vs the devils (which is subjective) in the faceoff circle means drury is bad on faceoffs? huh?

it's not like the Rangers were the only team to bid for drury...heck even buffalo offered him the same contract...a bunch of gms vs you...hmm...it's a tough one but i'll go with the opinions of the guys who are paid to make these choices over some guy on a message board.....
you don't think Drury looked worn down during a portion of last year. b/c he definately did. this could be attributed to too much ice time. more specifically PK time.

It wasn't just one bad series vs the Devils. it was most key faceoffs. It seemed that he didn't really win important faceoffs that much last year.

and a bunch of GM's went after Valeri Kamensky that one year as well. I guess GM's never make a mistake. A bunch of GM's just went after Campbell this year, and same w/ Malone. Now analysts and people are saying it was horrible dealsl Fact is GM's make mistakes, especially when bidding against other teams. Also some teams just bid w/ no intentions of signing, they just bid to make other teams pay more, and agents know this full well.

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08-27-2008, 03:02 PM
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i'm not even talking about just sather...

What about Darcy Regier? He offered the same EXACT contract to Drury
Yes, but Drury was a proven commodity in THAT system.

I'm just not a fan of throwing a ton of money at players that haven't done a thing for your team in your system before.

ie: How do you not resign Avery at 4mm, when you already know how important he is to your team? Yet you'll throw money around all over the place to players that haven't skated a shift. I don't know...just not my philosophy. Chemistry is too important in hockey...so when you have it, reward it..and when you don't...don't spend a ton to try to force it.

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08-27-2008, 03:47 PM
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Forgot about heatly. he KILLED his friend, injured himself. was traded to a new team. And still performed absolutely amazing. That's a little more crap than Redden went through don't ya think. Like I said, some people rise when times get hard, others shrink.
Yeah, acting like an idiot and getting your friend killed is much much harder than your own mother dying. Then to be traded away from the region where the accident occurred and spared the constant attention of the Atlanta media? Much more difficult, yes.

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Volchenkov, is a good dman. and look at Chara. Look who he has played w/. CHARA was/is the better player not Redden. It's painstakingly obvious. Typical you just making excuses. And I have not deemed Redden a failure yet. I just don't have high hopes for him. Hopefully he proves me wrong.
I never said Redden was better than Chara. Way to take something and distort it. I'd also argue that Boston's defensive system is better than that of Ottawa's.

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I do realize that. It still doesn't make a difference though. The money is real. the cap space used is real. And you know what if he isn't going to perform at the $7mil level than don't sign him. Let some other sucker sign him and go through cap hell, buyers remorse. Nobody puts a gun to Sathers head and said you must give him $7mil. another excuse.
Obviously you don't realize that, or you wouldn't keep trying to use it to validate your position. By your logic, Huet should be better than Brodeur because he's being paid more. Do you really think GM's pull these numbers out of thin air and say "**** it, we'll worry about the cap later?"

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Ok great so that 1 84 pt year out of his 8 yr career. So that is the year of what he is truly like. Not the other 7 seasons, those were below average years. his 84 pt season was what he should be hitting. Where is the logic on this.

I'm tending to think that that one 84 pt season was an abberation and Gomez really is about a 70-75 pt person, for the sole fact that he doesn't score. That 84 pt year was b/c he he potted 33 goals. he has only hit half that # one other year which was his rookie year.
And yet he put up 71 points playing with line-mates that didn't suit his style of play. It's simple really; If your offense is putting up numbers, players stats will be low. If nobody is scoring goals, guys like Gomez who rely on assists wont put up big numbers.

There is a reason the Debbies don't have 90 point players falling from the windows of the Prudential center. They play a defensive system, as did we last year because we were forced to.

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Potential is one thing, reaching it is another. Alexandre Daigle had a ton of potential. Didn't do much for him did it.
Daigle? Really?


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08-27-2008, 04:31 PM
  #74
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you don't think Drury looked worn down during a portion of last year. b/c he definately did. this could be attributed to too much ice time. more specifically PK time.

It wasn't just one bad series vs the Devils. it was most key faceoffs. It seemed that he didn't really win important faceoffs that much last year.

and a bunch of GM's went after Valeri Kamensky that one year as well. I guess GM's never make a mistake. A bunch of GM's just went after Campbell this year, and same w/ Malone. Now analysts and people are saying it was horrible dealsl Fact is GM's make mistakes, especially when bidding against other teams. Also some teams just bid w/ no intentions of signing, they just bid to make other teams pay more, and agents know this full well.

No i don't think Drury looked tired at all......i also don't think it's realisitic to propose drury get little pk time....last year during the whole peca debate people said drury shouldn't kill penalties because "hey SoS who would you rather break there hand drury or peca?" this is the same sort of misguided logic..

GM's make mistakes but i'd still take a paid professional over yours...Doctors make mistakes too but i'd still take there opinion on a broken arm over a pharmacist...

teams bid with no intention of signing players? name one example.....that happens in baseball but not hockey....agents might lie and say a team has interest but can you find an example of a team bidding for a player and recinding the bid when the player said yes? come on, if you are going to say it you might as well back it up with something..

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08-27-2008, 04:33 PM
  #75
Son of Steinbrenner
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hightide85 View Post
Yes, but Drury was a proven commodity in THAT system.

I'm just not a fan of throwing a ton of money at players that haven't done a thing for your team in your system before.

ie: How do you not resign Avery at 4mm, when you already know how important he is to your team? Yet you'll throw money around all over the place to players that haven't skated a shift. I don't know...just not my philosophy. Chemistry is too important in hockey...so when you have it, reward it..and when you don't...don't spend a ton to try to force it.
So your not a big fan of adding any free agents?

chemistry is important but it can be built with the right group and good coaching...also a great goaltender can make most problems go away....

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