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It's the end of August and there are eight teams outside the cap

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Old
08-27-2008, 11:25 AM
  #51
snarktacular
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Rumor out of the Ducks media is that most of the teams interested in Schneider are waiting on Sundin first.

So if you're that desperate you should picket on Sundin's lawn.

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08-27-2008, 11:29 AM
  #52
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I anticipate the season starting without Sakic, Selanne or Sundin being decided.

Teams over the cap will get under NJ-style.

Teams under the floor will pay penalties. They're after Tavares and Hedman.

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08-27-2008, 03:42 PM
  #53
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Teams under the floor don't get to play.

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08-27-2008, 04:06 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
Teams under the floor don't get to play.
Where in the CBA does it say this? Bettman has the final say.

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08-27-2008, 07:03 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redlighting View Post
I can bet that Montreal and Edmonton are each going to make one big move and take on a big salary (both were trying do so on July 1st with Sundin and Hossa/Jagr respectively). I doubt both teams go into the season with 5+ million in cap space.

I think Montreal will go after either Nylander, Lang or Schneider, but it's anyone's guess who Edmonton will go after (maybe Havlat? He's no Hossa or Jagr, but still productive when healthy), or perhaps a goalie since they're carrying three right now.
Edmonton is about $2.5M from the ceiling, not $5M+.

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08-27-2008, 07:05 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by worstfaceoffmanever View Post
Update your UFA and RFA lists. Close to half of the UFA list have signed in Europe or the AHL already, and there are several RFAs that have re-signed or signed in Europe.
The fact that a player has signed in Europe doesn't automatically make him not UFA/RFA, as the case may be.

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08-27-2008, 07:07 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Reaper45 View Post
Where in the CBA does it say this? Bettman has the final say.
It's not in the CBA - it's in the League By-Laws.

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08-27-2008, 07:16 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irish Blues View Post
It's not in the CBA - it's in the League By-Laws.
you mean that secret document that no-one gets to see?
great.

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08-27-2008, 08:27 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irish Blues View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaper45
Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514
Teams under the floor don't get to play.
Where in the CBA does it say this? Bettman has the final say.
It's not in the CBA - it's in the League By-Laws.
Do you have any authoritative confirmation that that is indeed the sanction, rather than your usual refrain of "WE DON'T KNOW"?

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08-27-2008, 09:02 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by massivegoonery View Post
Those rookie bonuses come off if they're not hit. What do the Kings do come July when they have to retroactively spend $2m?
IB: Do you know what the deal is with this situation? As far as I see it, if Drew Doughty has a $500k bonus for being a Calder nominee (for instance), it doesn't come off the team's cap hit until it's impossible to attain, after awards voting, at which time the Kings would be unable to add salary to come into compliance.

Is there a penalty if this happens? Does the league force the Kings to take this into account before they can play?

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08-27-2008, 09:20 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by massivegoonery View Post
IB: Do you know what the deal is with this situation? As far as I see it, if Drew Doughty has a $500k bonus for being a Calder nominee (for instance), it doesn't come off the team's cap hit until it's impossible to attain, after awards voting, at which time the Kings would be unable to add salary to come into compliance.

Is there a penalty if this happens? Does the league force the Kings to take this into account before they can play?
Yes - teams must remain in complience until the end of the League Year (June 30).

If a bonus becomes unearned after the completion of the season or post season, the teams Average Club Salary is reduced by the amount of the unearned bonuses. If that puts the Average Club Salary below the Lower Limit, the team will be out of compliance and subject to the sanctions in Article 26.

The league cannot force the Kings to take that into account now - the bonuses are not yet impossible to achieve - but in the unlikely case of those bonuses being the only thing keeping the Kings above the cap at the end of the season, they run a significant risk of being subject to significant penalties (Fines of $1M-$5M, forfeture of draft picks, suspension of club employees, etc).

And, BTW, being a Calder finalist is NOT among the allowed individually negotiated "B" bonuses under Exhibit 5 of the CBA. The only trophy/award Performance Bonuses permitted are: top 5 for Hart, Norris, Vezina, Selke, and Richard, winning the Jennings, being named 1st or 2nd team All-Star, or winning the Conn Smyth.

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Old
08-27-2008, 09:37 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by kdb209 View Post
Do you have any authoritative confirmation that that is indeed the sanction, rather than your usual refrain of "WE DON'T KNOW"?
The exact penalties are contained in the League By-Laws. What those penalties are, the League won't say. [yet]

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08-27-2008, 10:01 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irish Blues View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by kdb209
Do you have any authoritative confirmation that that is indeed the sanction, rather than your usual refrain of "WE DON'T KNOW"?
The exact penalties are contained in the League By-Laws. What those penalties are, the League won't say. [yet]
So, in other words - "WE DON'T KNOW" .

If the penalty is this case is in the By-Laws, rather than under Article 26 of the CBA, are you saying that an investigation and finding by the System Arbitrator would not be necessary prior to sanctions.

If that were the case, I could easily see the NHLPA challenging that conclusion - as it appears that this is a matter covered by the CBA. In which case the CBA would take precedence over anything in the League Rules (Article 30.1 - "In the event of a conflict between this Agreement and said League Rules, the provisions of this Agreement shall govern.") and the sanctions would be those enumerated in the CBA at the discretion of the Commissioner and not those stated in the By-Laws.

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Old
08-27-2008, 10:35 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
Teams under the floor don't get to play.

Its unlikely that there is anything in the CBA or league by-laws that keeps a team off the ice. At best, their may be some sanctions in terms of draft picks or fines.

I wonder if one reason why teams are not more cranked up about the floor is that the penalties are not really all that significant.

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Old
08-27-2008, 10:52 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdb209 View Post
And, BTW, being a Calder finalist is NOT among the allowed individually negotiated "B" bonuses under Exhibit 5 of the CBA. The only trophy/award Performance Bonuses permitted are: top 5 for Hart, Norris, Vezina, Selke, and Richard, winning the Jennings, being named 1st or 2nd team All-Star, or winning the Conn Smyth.
Actually I think it is. Exhibit 5.2.a.iv. 100k max for 3rd, 150 and 212.5 for 2nd and 3rd.

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08-27-2008, 10:55 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by obobo23 View Post
Actually I think it is. Exhibit 5.2.a.iv. 100k max for 3rd, 150 and 212.5 for 2nd and 1st.
Fixed it for you...

If the Kings are within $212 thousand of going below the cap floor by the end of the season the GM has made a huge mistake.

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Old
08-28-2008, 12:37 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by obobo23 View Post
Actually I think it is. Exhibit 5.2.a.iv. 100k max for 3rd, 150 and 212.5 for 2nd and 3rd.
Nope. The bonuses listed in 5.2(a)(iv) are the bonuses paid by the league. They do not count against a teams cap.

A player may negotiate additional individually negotiated "B" Bonuses which do count against the cap. For the Calder (under Exhibit 5.2(a)(iv)) - no individually negotiated "excess" is allowed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CBA Exhibit 5.2
2. Individual "B" Bonuses - League-wide Awards/Trophies and League Performance Bonuses Paid by League and/or Club

Every Player party to an Entry Level SPC shall automatically be deemed eligible for the
Individual "B" Bonuses listed below, which, if earned, shall be payable by the League
in the
amounts set forth below. There is no limit on the number of League-wide Awards/Trophy
Bonuses and League Performance Bonuses that an individual Player may earn in a League Year
that are payable by the League. For example, if a Player finishes 2nd in the Hart, 3rd in the Selke
and 1st in the Lady Byng, he will receive all bonus amounts associated with each such Leaguewide
Award/Trophy Bonus. In addition, if he also finishes 3rd among NHL forwards in goals,
2nd in points, and 4th in points per Game, he would also receive all bonus amounts associated
with such bonuses.

A Player and Club may also negotiate individual bonuses payable by the Club for the
League-wide Awards/Trophy Bonuses and League Performance Bonuses set forth below, except
where specifically stated otherwise
, in amounts to be individually negotiated between a Club and
a Player (the Club and Player could agree to pay more, or less, than the amounts payable by the
League, set forth below). The maximum aggregate amount that a Club can pay a Player (in
addition to any amounts paid by the League to such Player) on behalf of a Player's Individual
"B" Bonuses is $2 million per season. There is no limit on the quantity (as opposed to the dollar
amount) of League-wide Awards/Trophies and League Performance Bonuses a Player may
receive from the Club.
(a) League-wide Awards/Trophies. The following are the only awards or trophies
for which Clubs and Players may negotiate bonuses: the Hart Memorial Trophy
("Hart"), the "Rocket" Richard Trophy ("Richard"), the Vezina Trophy ("Vezina"),
the William Jennings Trophy ("Jennings"), the Norris Trophy ("Norris"), the
Conn Smythe ("Conn Smythe"), and the Frank J. Selke Trophy ("Selke").
In the
event that the National Hockey League creates additional award(s) of like stature
in the future, Clubs may award bonuses to Players in connection therewith.
...
(iv) A Player who finishes among the top three (3) in balloting for the
Calder shall receive the following bonus amounts (no individually
negotiated "excess" allowed
):
Winner $212,500
2nd $150,000
3rd $100,000

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08-28-2008, 12:40 AM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Squidward View Post
Fixed it for you...

If the Kings are within $212 thousand of going below the cap floor by the end of the season the GM has made a huge mistake.
It's not just $212k. When these discussions take place, everyone always pencils in Doughty with a max entry level contract of $3.8m. My point is that $2m of that cap hit consists of Individual "B" Bonuses and, as such, are limited in their scope by the definitions enumerated in the CBA. If he doesn't reach *any* of his "B" Bonuses, which is entirely possible as the bar is set pretty high for most of them, then his cap hit for the year would end up as a maximum of $1.8m. The same goes for any other rookies with similar bonus-laden contracts.

I just bring this up because $2m+ changes the math on the calculations that I see flying around all the time. Some kind of significant free agent signing seems prudent.

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08-28-2008, 12:43 AM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdb209 View Post
Nope. The bonuses listed in 5.2(a)(iv) are the bonuses paid by the league. They do not count against a teams cap.

A player may negotiate additional individually negotiated "B" Bonuses which do count against the cap. For the Calder (under Exhibit 5.2(a)(iv)) - no individually negotiated "excess" is allowed.
I was using the Calder as an (incorrect) example. I think my point remains valid, though, as many of the club-paid "B" bonuses for which excess is permitted would not become impossible until after the conclusion of the season..

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08-28-2008, 01:11 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by kdb209 View Post
Nope. The bonuses listed in 5.2(a)(iv) are the bonuses paid by the league. They do not count against a teams cap.

A player may negotiate additional individually negotiated "B" Bonuses which do count against the cap. For the Calder (under Exhibit 5.2(a)(iv)) - no individually negotiated "excess" is allowed.
Man I was all good reading through the threads and I am so confused right now.

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08-28-2008, 01:28 AM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdb209 View Post
Nope. The bonuses listed in 5.2(a)(iv) are the bonuses paid by the league. They do not count against a teams cap.

A player may negotiate additional individually negotiated "B" Bonuses which do count against the cap. For the Calder (under Exhibit 5.2(a)(iv)) - no individually negotiated "excess" is allowed.
Ah gotcha. I had ignored the "individualy negotiated" part.

My confusion stems from the fact that I thought that B bonuses paid by the league were included in the player's cap hit. But looking again, it looks like club-paid B bonuses are the only B bonuses that count on the cap.

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08-28-2008, 08:54 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by massivegoonery View Post
It's not just $212k. When these discussions take place, everyone always pencils in Doughty with a max entry level contract of $3.8m. My point is that $2m of that cap hit consists of Individual "B" Bonuses and, as such, are limited in their scope by the definitions enumerated in the CBA. If he doesn't reach *any* of his "B" Bonuses, which is entirely possible as the bar is set pretty high for most of them, then his cap hit for the year would end up as a maximum of $1.8m. The same goes for any other rookies with similar bonus-laden contracts.

I just bring this up because $2m+ changes the math on the calculations that I see flying around all the time. Some kind of significant free agent signing seems prudent.
I would say that probably about $500,000 of the $2 million in potential bonuses are easily obtainable by a top rated prospect. So a "wise" GM would probably factor this in and even if the players "official" cap hit is $3 million the GM should treat it as a $1.5 million cap hit. Whether or not Lombardi will do it this way remains to be seen.

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08-28-2008, 09:05 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by kdb209 View Post
So, in other words - "WE DON'T KNOW" .

If the penalty is this case is in the By-Laws, rather than under Article 26 of the CBA, are you saying that an investigation and finding by the System Arbitrator would not be necessary prior to sanctions.
Honestly, I can't begin to speculate on this side of things without knowing more - and the NHL is treating the release of this information as if it's akin to releasing the innermost secrets on the country's nuclear program ... which makes speculation incredibly difficult.

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08-28-2008, 09:29 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by kdb209 View Post
So, in other words - "WE DON'T KNOW" .

If the penalty is this case is in the By-Laws, rather than under Article 26 of the CBA, are you saying that an investigation and finding by the System Arbitrator would not be necessary prior to sanctions.

If that were the case, I could easily see the NHLPA challenging that conclusion - as it appears that this is a matter covered by the CBA. In which case the CBA would take precedence over anything in the League Rules (Article 30.1 - "In the event of a conflict between this Agreement and said League Rules, the provisions of this Agreement shall govern.") and the sanctions would be those enumerated in the CBA at the discretion of the Commissioner and not those stated in the By-Laws.
I thought that this issue had been settled and that it was actually

"WE DON'T KNOW!!!!"

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Old
08-28-2008, 09:56 AM
  #75
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No....you cannot. If the injured player is a $5 million cap hit and the player taking his spot is a $3 million cap hit then the $3 million players salary does not count....so he is essentially now a $5 million player. A team does not get to "bank" the unused portion of the cap relief.
Per IB in a different thread a couple months back, teams do get to "bank" the unused portion and use it towards other players. Supposedly the league implements the LTIR replacement player process differently than the CBA language suggests it would be.

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