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Bob Gainey's secret weapon.....

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Old
09-05-2008, 11:43 AM
  #26
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by Newhabfan View Post
This is something I was thinking about for a long time and I never read or heard about anything similar. I know I'll get insightfull comments here so here it is.

Have you wondered how come Markov and AKost signed contracts that were obviusly under their market value ? Home discount ? That hardly works with other teams in the league - and these guys are russian (and belorussian to be precise) not Montrealers. And let's not mention taxes...

Or why did Cristobal Huet and Michael Grabovski get traded for peanuts ? Many people saw the Huet trade as a GM failure, while in fact it was a stroke of genius - you will see later why.

Why Bob Gainey made so few trades involving roster/established players ? He always prefers offering picks and prospects.

Or why did the team backup 100% all of its players everytime they got attacked for one reason or another? O'Byrne's purse, Grabovski's plane, Kovalev's russian interview's, Koivu's french etc.

Or why did guys like Samsonov, Ryder and Grabovski get so many "second" chances ? To our exasperation?

The answer is simple - Bob Gainey is a nice guy and/or a brilliant psychologist. He knows (first hand) that unlike in NHL08, players are human beings that want to be treated as such.

Two weeks after the Huet trade I heard Pierre Boivin saying on CKAC "Cristobal did a lot for the Canadiens - We owed him this one". In other words, the Huet trade was done for Cristobal Huet's interest and not for the team (who got close to nothing in exchange). It was a "thank you" gesture - instead of keeping you as a second goalie behind Price and barely playing you for the rest of the season, we will put you in a position where you can actually earn a 1st goalie spot and raise your market value for the future contract. Seems it worked for him.

After the Grabovsky trade Gainey said (though it went unnoticed) that "Michael asked to be traded". And he was put in a team where he has a good chance of performing well. Like Mike Ribeiro, Theo and Rivet.

My interpretation of all this is that Gainey respects the players - he knows that what players hate the most is being treated as Pokemon cards (the reason for all the NTCs). He probably never trades an established player against his will. This explains a lot of "Gainey's inertia" at trade deadlines - the best trades are the one you do not do.

Even the failed Hossa trade gets another meaning now - Gainey could have got it by addng some 3rd-4th liner to the initial deal but the message he sent to his team by refusing to do that was "we respect you and we won't trade you like pieces of meat, even for someone like Hossa". A winner in the long run.

The real value of the Huet trade is seen in the Akost signing. And in the future signings (with important home discounts) of Komisarek, Higgins, Plekanec and others.

What looked like a failure at some moments from him as a GM was in fact a master move. When you join the Montreal Canadiens you do not need an NTC clause - you get a (verbal) one by default.
What are you talking about?..
A.Kost was a RFA, they always get less money than UFAs.
Markov did take a hometown discount, he said he liked Mtl and wanted to stay here. He became the highest paid Hab after that contract. Hometown discounts happen, I can name you a few right at the top of my head Malkin, Crosby, Hossa(Det), Sakic, etc..
Not everybody around the league want the most money out of every contract.

You really think they let Huet go for a 2nd round pick at the deadline when he was still our #1 Goalie at the time, just for Huet to have more playing time???..Are you that gullible, really??
Gainey had chosen by the deadline that it was time to make the transition and let Price be the figure of the Habs. He looked for a backup veteran goalie in return, Hedberg, that was suppose to come here with Hossa.
We were fighting for #1 seed in the conference, there's 1month left in the reg season, you just don't trade your top goalie for nothing especially knowing Huet was pretty disappointed and sad to leave so its not like he asked to be traded.
He also went from #1 seed in the East, to a struggling to make the POs team. Huet was not happy to leave.
Gainey got screwed by Waddell that day. Had nothing to do with giving Huet a better chance.

Waddell didn't ask for an extra 3rd-4th liner, he asked for Higgins to be added to which Gainey refused.


I think you're trying to find something that's not there.
Gainey is the Hab's GM. His job is to give his coach good enough players to win the cup. That involves drafting, prospects, trades, FA signings.
He will make some trades that will benefit our team, not the player traded.
Gainey is not an idiot we can agree on that, so if he can work out a trade that benefits both the Habs and the players going away, than he'll do it. But if it just benefits the Habs and is a key trade, you can bet your ass he'll do it.
He's Bob Gainey, not Santa Clause.

Rivet was angry to get traded.
Ribiero wasn't happy either, nor was Huet, nor was Theo although he expected it.

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Old
09-05-2008, 11:44 AM
  #27
mabus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Newhabfan View Post
This is something I was thinking about for a long time and I never read or heard about anything similar. I know I'll get insightfull comments here so here it is.

Have you wondered how come Markov and AKost signed contracts that were obviusly under their market value ? Home discount ? That hardly works with other teams in the league - and these guys are russian (and belorussian to be precise) not Montrealers. And let's not mention taxes...

Or why did Cristobal Huet and Michael Grabovski get traded for peanuts ? Many people saw the Huet trade as a GM failure, while in fact it was a stroke of genius - you will see later why.

Why Bob Gainey made so few trades involving roster/established players ? He always prefers offering picks and prospects.

Or why did the team backup 100% all of its players everytime they got attacked for one reason or another? O'Byrne's purse, Grabovski's plane, Kovalev's russian interview's, Koivu's french etc.

Or why did guys like Samsonov, Ryder and Grabovski get so many "second" chances ? To our exasperation?

The answer is simple - Bob Gainey is a nice guy and/or a brilliant psychologist. He knows (first hand) that unlike in NHL08, players are human beings that want to be treated as such.

Two weeks after the Huet trade I heard Pierre Boivin saying on CKAC "Cristobal did a lot for the Canadiens - We owed him this one". In other words, the Huet trade was done for Cristobal Huet's interest and not for the team (who got close to nothing in exchange). It was a "thank you" gesture - instead of keeping you as a second goalie behind Price and barely playing you for the rest of the season, we will put you in a position where you can actually earn a 1st goalie spot and raise your market value for the future contract. Seems it worked for him.

After the Grabovsky trade Gainey said (though it went unnoticed) that "Michael asked to be traded". And he was put in a team where he has a good chance of performing well. Like Mike Ribeiro, Theo and Rivet.

My interpretation of all this is that Gainey respects the players - he knows that what players hate the most is being treated as Pokemon cards (the reason for all the NTCs). He probably never trades an established player against his will. This explains a lot of "Gainey's inertia" at trade deadlines - the best trades are the one you do not do.

Even the failed Hossa trade gets another meaning now - Gainey could have got it by addng some 3rd-4th liner to the initial deal but the message he sent to his team by refusing to do that was "we respect you and we won't trade you like pieces of meat, even for someone like Hossa". A winner in the long run.

The real value of the Huet trade is seen in the Akost signing. And in the future signings (with important home discounts) of Komisarek, Higgins, Plekanec and others.

What looked like a failure at some moments from him as a GM was in fact a master move. When you join the Montreal Canadiens you do not need an NTC clause - you get a (verbal) one by default.
Excellent and well thought out post.

One minor note however. The Hossa trade did not fail because Gainey refused to add a 3rd liner. The trade fell apart when the other team demanded Higgins (If I recall well), who Gainey was unwilling to part with along with the rest of the stuff the team wanted for Hossa. They simply wanted too much.

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Old
09-05-2008, 11:45 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by SpreeEndaz View Post
Well, I guess just actually looking at Huet in the interviews after he got traded is a good enough counter-argument.
indeed....he was pissed off ....

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Old
09-05-2008, 11:55 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
What are you talking about?..
A.Kost was a RFA, they always get less money than UFAs.
Markov did take a hometown discount, he said he liked Mtl and wanted to stay here. He became the highest paid Hab after that contract. Hometown discounts happen, I can name you a few right at the top of my head Malkin, Crosby, Hossa(Det), Sakic, etc..
Not everybody around the league want the most money out of every contract.

You really think they let Huet go for a 2nd round pick at the deadline when he was still our #1 Goalie at the time, just for Huet to have more playing time???..Are you that gullible, really??
Gainey had chosen by the deadline that it was time to make the transition and let Price be the figure of the Habs. He looked for a backup veteran goalie in return, Hedberg, that was suppose to come here with Hossa.
We were fighting for #1 seed in the conference, there's 1month left in the reg season, you just don't trade your top goalie for nothing especially knowing Huet was pretty disappointed and sad to leave so its not like he asked to be traded.
He also went from #1 seed in the East, to a struggling to make the POs team. Huet was not happy to leave.
Gainey got screwed by Waddell that day. Had nothing to do with giving Huet a better chance.

Waddell didn't ask for an extra 3rd-4th liner, he asked for Higgins to be added to which Gainey refused.


I think you're trying to find something that's not there.
Gainey is the Hab's GM. His job is to give his coach good enough players to win the cup. That involves drafting, prospects, trades, FA signings.
He will make some trades that will benefit our team, not the player traded.
Gainey is not an idiot we can agree on that, so if he can work out a trade that benefits both the Habs and the players going away, than he'll do it. But if it just benefits the Habs and is a key trade, you can bet your ass he'll do it.
He's Bob Gainey, not Santa Clause.

Rivet was angry to get traded.
Ribiero wasn't happy either, nor was Huet, nor was Theo although he expected it.
This is a longer, more aggressive version of exactly what I was going to post...

He is a GM, and his goal is to win, yes he can be nice at some time, and not at all on other times.

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Old
09-05-2008, 12:23 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by CH4THECUP View Post
This is a longer, more aggressive version of exactly what I was going to post...

He is a GM, and his goal is to win, yes he can be nice at some time, and not at all on other times.
Sorry if it seemed that way - but I'm not saying that he does this because he has a good heart and he wants to make players happy. He does this with one purpose: to win. It is something you need to do in the current context.

Motivating your players into giving all they can during the 82+ games a year is something both difficult and absolutely needed. Team morale is what separates winners from losers. Internal conflicts and frustrations can lead to major failures - see the talented Sens team last season.

You cannot motivate hockey players with money or bonuses, the classic way, because of salary cap, so you have to find some other approach - and keeping them happy and confident that the organisation will respect them is a good one.

Say Gainey does one of those brutal trades every fan seems to imagine. He sends Higgins to atlanta for Hossa + stuff (condemning Higgins to years of mediocrity in the process). What will the others think ? Plekanec, Komisarek, the Kostytsyns, O'Byrne..? "If this happened to him it could happen to me too anytime. Better plan ahead and think about it next time I negotiate..."

So this is not (just) out of goodness and warm fuzzy feelings - it's an approach to build a confident, winning team. See Detroit for the best proof.

I agree that Ribeiro, Theo and Rivet were not happy being traded. First - they were not Gainey's players - he found them here. Second - they were all traded into potentially winning teams where they had a chance to shine.

Imagine that when discussing a potential signing with Tanguay or Laraque, Gainey will say "Look at this, we take care of our players and we do not trade them against their will. We also give them all the chances they want if they have a bad streak". Would it help?

And there is also the possibility that if a player likes the way he is treated he will sign for less. The signings of Markov, AKost and OByrne are the proof that our players want to stay in Montreal. So it is a winning attitude in the long run.

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Old
09-05-2008, 12:27 PM
  #31
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its personal choice depending on personal priorities.. maybe for some it will be gm.. maybe some it will be about the money, other than language.. the taxes.. the fans.. the interest, the pressure, the glory, the tradition and so on..

what would you do? what are your priorities..

for Kost we could say its is brother, the fact the habs got him dispite his epilepsy... or Kovalev..

for Markov, it could be is is shy, doesnt like the change, loves the city, feels at home after X years.. etc..

maybe for Sundin its all about the money, or about his little history as white and blue. who knows..

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Old
09-05-2008, 12:38 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Newhabfan View Post
This is something I was thinking about for a long time and I never read or heard about anything similar. I know I'll get insightfull comments here so here it is.

Have you wondered how come Markov and AKost signed contracts that were obviusly under their market value ? Home discount ? That hardly works with other teams in the league - and these guys are russian (and belorussian to be precise) not Montrealers. And let's not mention taxes...

Or why did Cristobal Huet and Michael Grabovski get traded for peanuts ? Many people saw the Huet trade as a GM failure, while in fact it was a stroke of genius - you will see later why.

Why Bob Gainey made so few trades involving roster/established players ? He always prefers offering picks and prospects.

Or why did the team backup 100% all of its players everytime they got attacked for one reason or another? O'Byrne's purse, Grabovski's plane, Kovalev's russian interview's, Koivu's french etc.

Or why did guys like Samsonov, Ryder and Grabovski get so many "second" chances ? To our exasperation?

The answer is simple - Bob Gainey is a nice guy and/or a brilliant psychologist. He knows (first hand) that unlike in NHL08, players are human beings that want to be treated as such.

Two weeks after the Huet trade I heard Pierre Boivin saying on CKAC "Cristobal did a lot for the Canadiens - We owed him this one". In other words, the Huet trade was done for Cristobal Huet's interest and not for the team (who got close to nothing in exchange). It was a "thank you" gesture - instead of keeping you as a second goalie behind Price and barely playing you for the rest of the season, we will put you in a position where you can actually earn a 1st goalie spot and raise your market value for the future contract. Seems it worked for him.

After the Grabovsky trade Gainey said (though it went unnoticed) that "Michael asked to be traded". And he was put in a team where he has a good chance of performing well. Like Mike Ribeiro, Theo and Rivet.

My interpretation of all this is that Gainey respects the players - he knows that what players hate the most is being treated as Pokemon cards (the reason for all the NTCs). He probably never trades an established player against his will. This explains a lot of "Gainey's inertia" at trade deadlines - the best trades are the one you do not do.

Even the failed Hossa trade gets another meaning now - Gainey could have got it by addng some 3rd-4th liner to the initial deal but the message he sent to his team by refusing to do that was "we respect you and we won't trade you like pieces of meat, even for someone like Hossa". A winner in the long run.

The real value of the Huet trade is seen in the Akost signing. And in the future signings (with important home discounts) of Komisarek, Higgins, Plekanec and others.

What looked like a failure at some moments from him as a GM was in fact a master move. When you join the Montreal Canadiens you do not need an NTC clause - you get a (verbal) one by default.

Welcome to the board, its refreshing to read someone's opinion without being a jackass or with the approach of 'I'm right, your wrong deal with it' attitude which is in abundance here.

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Old
09-05-2008, 12:43 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Newhabfan View Post
Say Gainey does one of those brutal trades every fan seems to imagine. He sends Higgins to atlanta for Hossa + stuff (condemning Higgins to years of mediocrity in the process). What will the others think ? Plekanec, Komisarek, the Kostytsyns, O'Byrne..? "If this happened to him it could happen to me too anytime. Better plan ahead and think about it next time I negotiate..."

I agree that Ribeiro, Theo and Rivet were not happy being traded. First - they were not Gainey's players - he found them here. Second - they were all traded into potentially winning teams where they had a chance to shine.
Condemning Higgins to years of mediocrety? Come on...maybe he would have a career year out there, who knows. They have some good young players and they will turn it around soon enough. And every players knows that they can be traded at any time. It's not when a teammate is traded that you realize that.

And do you seriously think that Gainey would only trade a player to a good team? He trade the player where he can have the best return without hurting his chance to win game (trade within a division or conference). If he would have cared, he would have traded Huet to a team who was sure of making the playoffs...

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Old
09-05-2008, 12:44 PM
  #34
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I'm not sorry Gainey traded Ribeiro. I am sorry that Gainey waited until the next September instead of doing it on July 1, 2006 or as soon thereafter as possible. He might have gotten more than Niinimaa in return if he hadn't waited until the last minute. I know, there had been injuries to the defence (Bouillon, etc.), but it must have occurred to Gainey after the 2005-2006 playoffs that Ribeiro wasn't producing for the Habs even on a line with Kovalev. The series against Carolina should have convinced him once and for all that Kovalev needed a more compatible centre. Kovalev was the leading scorer against the Canes but Ribeiro wasn't getting assists on his goals. Besides, Ribeiro wasn't popular with most of the players.

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09-05-2008, 12:55 PM
  #35
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Welcome to the board, its refreshing to read someone's opinion without being a jackass or with the approach of 'I'm right, your wrong deal with it' attitude which is in abundance here.
Shuddup AHF, who are you again?

Actually I just wanted to comment on your avatar pic. That's a cool looking ring.

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09-05-2008, 01:01 PM
  #36
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Shuddup AHF, who are you again?

Actually I just wanted to comment on your avatar pic. That's a cool looking ring.
thanks for the comment on the ring...a local artist made it for me...bonus is I didn't pay for it, my other half did

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09-05-2008, 01:04 PM
  #37
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thanks for the comment on the ring...a local artist made it for me...bonus is I didn't pay for it, my other half did
lol...nice, I have to learn how to get my other half to start paying for stuff.

I really like it, it looks pretty original. I don't think I've seen a design like that before.

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09-05-2008, 01:09 PM
  #38
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Newhabfan I've read two of your total of four posts as of yet and all I will say for now is: I'm a fan.

Off to sleep for me...!

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Old
09-05-2008, 01:12 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Newhabfan View Post
This is something I was thinking about for a long time and I never read or heard about anything similar. I know I'll get insightfull comments here so here it is.

Have you wondered how come Markov and AKost signed contracts that were obviusly under their market value ? Home discount ? That hardly works with other teams in the league - and these guys are russian (and belorussian to be precise) not Montrealers. And let's not mention taxes...

Or why did Cristobal Huet and Michael Grabovski get traded for peanuts ? Many people saw the Huet trade as a GM failure, while in fact it was a stroke of genius - you will see later why.

Why Bob Gainey made so few trades involving roster/established players ? He always prefers offering picks and prospects.

Or why did the team backup 100% all of its players everytime they got attacked for one reason or another? O'Byrne's purse, Grabovski's plane, Kovalev's russian interview's, Koivu's french etc.

Or why did guys like Samsonov, Ryder and Grabovski get so many "second" chances ? To our exasperation?

The answer is simple - Bob Gainey is a nice guy and/or a brilliant psychologist. He knows (first hand) that unlike in NHL08, players are human beings that want to be treated as such.

Two weeks after the Huet trade I heard Pierre Boivin saying on CKAC "Cristobal did a lot for the Canadiens - We owed him this one". In other words, the Huet trade was done for Cristobal Huet's interest and not for the team (who got close to nothing in exchange). It was a "thank you" gesture - instead of keeping you as a second goalie behind Price and barely playing you for the rest of the season, we will put you in a position where you can actually earn a 1st goalie spot and raise your market value for the future contract. Seems it worked for him.

After the Grabovsky trade Gainey said (though it went unnoticed) that "Michael asked to be traded". And he was put in a team where he has a good chance of performing well. Like Mike Ribeiro, Theo and Rivet.

My interpretation of all this is that Gainey respects the players - he knows that what players hate the most is being treated as Pokemon cards (the reason for all the NTCs). He probably never trades an established player against his will. This explains a lot of "Gainey's inertia" at trade deadlines - the best trades are the one you do not do.

Even the failed Hossa trade gets another meaning now - Gainey could have got it by addng some 3rd-4th liner to the initial deal but the message he sent to his team by refusing to do that was "we respect you and we won't trade you like pieces of meat, even for someone like Hossa". A winner in the long run.

The real value of the Huet trade is seen in the Akost signing. And in the future signings (with important home discounts) of Komisarek, Higgins, Plekanec and others.

What looked like a failure at some moments from him as a GM was in fact a master move. When you join the Montreal Canadiens you do not need an NTC clause - you get a (verbal) one by default.


And this is why as habs fans we are lucky to have the best GM in hockey for years to come.

GO BOB GO!!!!!!!!

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09-05-2008, 01:17 PM
  #40
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I actually thought it was the opposite. That most of the Bolt players thought Torts was an ass and had stopped listening to him.
I thought so too, but if you believe McGuire, Torts "behind the scenes" was very close to everyone on the team. A lot of people say his anger and emotion on the bench and in interviews never transitions into the locker room.

You hear so many conflicting things you never know whats true.

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09-05-2008, 01:17 PM
  #41
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...Off to sleep for me...!
Hush little Haddock, don't say a word,
Gainey's going to sign you a top 6 forward
And if that forward doesn't score,
Carbo's gonna nail his ass to the floor.

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09-05-2008, 01:20 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by habfan4 View Post
Hush little Haddock, don't say a word,
Gainey's going to sign you a top 6 forward
And if that forward doesn't score,
Carbo's gonna nail his ass to the floor.

But what if he likes it...............then what???????

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09-05-2008, 01:21 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by habfan4 View Post
Hush little Haddock, don't say a word,
Gainey's going to sign you a top 6 forward
And if that forward doesn't score,
Carbo's gonna nail his ass to the floor.


Good one!

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09-05-2008, 01:24 PM
  #44
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But what if he likes it...............then what???????
Then Gainey trades him to Chicago where his play is so disastrous he's subsequently moved to Carolina where he gets a new lease on his fading hockey career.

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09-05-2008, 01:26 PM
  #45
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Hush little Haddock, don't say a word,
Gainey's going to sign you a top 6 forward
And if that forward doesn't score,
Carbo's gonna nail his ass to the floor.

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09-05-2008, 01:27 PM
  #46
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Then Gainey trades him to Chicago where his play is so disastrous he's subsequently moved to Carolina where he gets a new lease on his fading hockey career.
He probably would shine in Chicago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by habfan4 View Post
Then Gainey trades him to Chicago where his play is so disastrous he's subsequently moved to Carolina where he gets a new lease on his fading hockey career.
I wonder what we would get in return if we trade him to Chicago.........


Last edited by Beakermania*: 09-05-2008 at 04:36 PM.
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Old
09-05-2008, 01:30 PM
  #47
Jakomyte
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Originally Posted by Ice Poutine View Post
Gainey is treating his players like human beings and not like pieces on a chess board, and thats always good. But in the end, a lot if not most players are in it for the moolah, the cash. And they know that they will be well treated by any other club thats willing to pay them 7 to 9 million bucks a year. I wonder if this approach by Gainey is going to work...
This is true to an extent.

I think every player has that push in the back of their mind, but players can also be swayed by other details (city, team, organization, respect, etc.). I think that Gainey has set up a situation where players have a number of good reasons not to leave town for top $$, its just a matter of which players value those reasons over the bottom line. Only time will tell...


Last edited by Jakomyte: 09-05-2008 at 02:04 PM.
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09-05-2008, 01:34 PM
  #48
CastroLeRobot
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Originally Posted by Jakomyte View Post
This is true to an extent.

I think every player has that push in the back of their mind, but players can also be swayed by other details (city, team, organization, respect, etc.). I think that Gainey has set up a situation where players have a number of good reasons not to leave down for top $$, its just a matter of which players value those reasons over the bottom line. Only time will tell...
It is also possible Gainey already identified the money mongers and traded them/let them go. I think Gainey assembled a group of people who like playing for the team, like playing for the habs as an organization and who appreciate the city.

No point in trying to negotiate with someone who thinks your city/team sucks...obviously he'll ask for more money

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Old
09-05-2008, 01:37 PM
  #49
Habs10Habs
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Originally Posted by Lone Rogue View Post
I thought so too, but if you believe McGuire, Torts "behind the scenes" was very close to everyone on the team. A lot of people say his anger and emotion on the bench and in interviews never transitions into the locker room.

You hear so many conflicting things you never know whats true.
McGuire's pretty reliable, but you're right. With all the different stories floating around, it is hard to know what's true and what's not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by habfan4 View Post
Hush little Haddock, don't say a word,
Gainey's going to sign you a top 6 forward
And if that forward doesn't score,
Carbo's gonna nail his ass to the floor.

lol...slow friday for you HF4?

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09-05-2008, 01:40 PM
  #50
les3couleurs
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Originally Posted by Newhabfan View Post

Or why did (...) Michael Grabovski get traded for peanuts ?
Because that is what he is worth?

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