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Grade Bob Gainey's 5 Year Plan

View Poll Results: Gainey's 5 Year GM Grade
A+ 41 12.50%
A 109 33.23%
A- 101 30.79%
B+ 53 16.16%
B 10 3.05%
B- 5 1.52%
C 3 0.91%
D 0 0%
F 1 0.30%
The Jury is Still Out 5 1.52%
Voters: 328. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
09-05-2008, 03:07 PM
  #51
Roulin
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F. Winning games is good fun, I guess, but wouldn't you rather have a big center?

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09-05-2008, 03:09 PM
  #52
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He has a great team, and a great bunch of prospects. I voted A, but should have probably voted A-, since no SCF or cup. But hes done an amazing job. I remember all those years when MON was absolutely brutal at drafting.

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09-05-2008, 03:24 PM
  #53
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Hes done a good job so far but has trouble signing the big name UFA's. B+ from me.

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09-05-2008, 03:33 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Roulin View Post
F. Winning games is good fun, I guess, but wouldn't you rather have a big center?
It's been over 2 hours and no one has done it yet, so it's left up to me, sigh ...

Sundin

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09-05-2008, 03:45 PM
  #55
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Are you guys evaluating Gainey's job or his plan? For this, these are two different things.

Gainey, as a GM, is B+ for me. Overall his trades were average and he had trouble bringing UFAs in Montreal. His strong points are his high-credibility, patience, team vision and leadership.

But his 5-years plan is certainly a strong A. He said he would create a contender by drafting with a few UFA, and that's exactly what he did. He managed to completely transform a very mediocre 2002-2003 team into one of the best in the East, deep on offense and with no glaring weakness (aside maybe our center line).

Everyone is going to make mistakes especially over the course of 5 years. But at this scale, what's important is the result. I don't care how he did it, but the habs haven't been that good since forever.

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09-05-2008, 04:07 PM
  #56
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Due to the lockout he has only completed four full seasons.... This is year five.

The jury is still out, but he's got high marks from me.... B+ right now...

If we win the Cup we go to A+ after this season.

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09-05-2008, 04:23 PM
  #57
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It's a B+ until he has more than like 8 people under contract for next season. This coming UFA class will be the defining moment in his "plan". If he can maintain a team that is competitive, then I'll move him up to an A-. The extra marks are for ECF/SCF appearances. A SC win is obviously an A+.

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09-05-2008, 04:32 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by RedScull View Post
It's a B+ until he has more than like 8 people under contract for next season. This coming UFA class will be the defining moment in his "plan". If he can maintain a team that is competitive, then I'll move him up to an A-. The extra marks are for ECF/SCF appearances. A SC win is obviously an A+.
+1. Exactly it. Next year's UFA and RFA management + winning the cup or at least a Final presence and here comes the A+. 'Cause that was the essence of the plan in the first place.

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09-05-2008, 06:19 PM
  #59
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You're right although with these semantics we might derail this thread into a similar 99 or 100 years debate. Since personnel moves (AHL level) and drafting and the like took place over the span of 5 years, for the purpose of this thread let's say he's been active on the job for 5 complete years.
I disagree simply because loosing a year in player development is a huge loss. This would be his fifth season.

The 99-100 is a whole different topic as the Habs still started 100 years ago. They just haven't played 100 season.

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09-05-2008, 06:29 PM
  #60
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I disagree simply because loosing a year in player development is a huge loss. This would be his fifth season.

The 99-100 is a whole different topic as the Habs still started 100 years ago. They just haven't played 100 season.
Exactly its also losing a year of talent evaluation and there were no NHL trades during that time.

We also saw significant changes in the game post lockout, so the plan, and type of players to acquire post lockout also had to be changed on the fly. The lockout year should not really count and we are entering year 5 of Gainey's five year plan.

And look where we are... A favorite in the Eastern Conference. Competing not just for a playoff spot, but a legit cup contender right now.

Go Bob Go.

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09-05-2008, 07:03 PM
  #61
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I had to go with an A....in his 5 year tenure he turned the Habs into the top team in the East...despite the fact that he wasn't able to land any free-agents due to reasons out of his control. I reserve the A+ standing to him winning the CUP, which I think is highly possible in the next year and those after. In Bob we trust!

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Old
09-05-2008, 07:20 PM
  #62
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from A+ to F , i deduce that

C means the average GM's ,
that B means the good GM's ,
that A means the best GM's ,
that A+ means the genious GM's .

the good ;

the Habs are in a good position , with a good team , and with a lot of skilled and promising prospect . Gainey is well respected around the league , is patient . Gainey is now having a very good management team all around him . He gives free hands to his scouting team , and it 's the best thing i think he has made until now . Begin + Huet & Bonk trade + Rivet trade .

The bad ;

Lost of Beauchemin and Hainsey without any return , the NTC of Koivu 's contract , the bad free agent signings ( Dandeneault , Samsonov , Smolinski ) , the trade of the skilled Ribeiro for the old Niinimaa , Souray that he didn't trade at the dead line , same for Ryder , the inaptitude to gets an impact player or impact free agent .

i would give an A to his scouting team , but just a B- or a B to Gainey .

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Old
09-05-2008, 07:47 PM
  #63
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the good :
signing hamrlik
re-signing markov
re-signing koivu
re-signing kovalev
acquiring huet
acquiring bonk
acquiring kovalev
trading grabovski
acquiring tanguay and laraque (at least, i think they are good moves)
naming timmins as head scout
hiring guy carbonneau

the bad:
trading ribeiro for niinimaa
not-resigning bonk and johnson
trading his veteran goalie before the playoffs for a 2nd round pick
losing beauchemin and hainsey to waivers
bad free agent signings(samsonov, smoke, dandenault)
losing ivanans for nothing
buying out cullimore who could have helped the team last season

if we take a look at the roster we have

gainey is responsable for having acquired :
bégin
brisebois
dandenault
gorges
hamrlik
kostopoulos
kovalev
laraque
tanguay

savard is reponsable for having acquired :
bouillon
kostitsyn brothers
plekanec
higgins
komisarek
halak
lapierre
o'byrne

timmins (i know he's linked with gainey but i decided to separate them) is responsable for having acquired :
chipchura
latendresse
price

s.savard is responsable for having acquired :
koivu

houle is responsable for having acquired :
markov

so, the guy who had the most positive influence on the team is andre savard. so, it's not fair to give all the praise to gainey.

we also missed the playoffs 2 seasons on 5 seasons since gainey arrived.

my opinion : B-

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Old
09-05-2008, 07:52 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiredman View Post
the good :
signing hamrlik
re-signing markov
re-signing koivu
re-signing kovalev
acquiring huet
acquiring bonk
acquiring kovalev
trading grabovski
acquiring tanguay and laraque (at least, i think they are good moves)
naming timmins as head scout
hiring guy carbonneau

the bad:
trading ribeiro for niinimaa
not-resigning bonk and johnson
trading his veteran goalie before the playoffs for a 2nd round pick
losing beauchemin and hainsey to waivers
bad free agent signings(samsonov, smoke, dandenault)
losing ivanans for nothing
buying out cullimore who could have helped the team last season


if we take a look at the roster we have

gainey is responsable for having acquired :
bégin
brisebois
dandenault
gorges
hamrlik
kostopoulos
kovalev
laraque
tanguay

savard is reponsable for having acquired :
bouillon
kostitsyn brothers
plekanec
higgins
komisarek
halak
lapierre
o'byrne

timmins is responsable for having acquired :
chipchura
latendresse
price

s.savard is responsable for having acquired :
koivu

houle is responsable for having acquired :
markov

so, the guy who had the most positive influence on the team is andre savard. so, it's not fair to give all the praise to gainey.

we also missed the playoffs 2 seasons on 5 seasons since gainey arrived.

my opinion : B-
Good to see you back. T., it seems that we share a love for the bottom pairing, and 3rd,4th line guys. I'm just not sure I agree on these particular 3rd and 4th line guys.

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Old
09-05-2008, 08:16 PM
  #65
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Good to see you back. T., it seems that we share a love for the bottom pairing, and 3rd,4th line guys. I'm just not sure I agree on these particular 3rd and 4th line guys.
I agree with you McPhee....

Losing Johnson, Bonk and Cullimore are no big deal to me.

As far as T. and Zamboni goes... I think we need to look more at the whole and less at the individual parts of the team.

Gainey took over a team that fought to get in the playoffs and a very successful season was winning a playoff round. Now we are a deeper team, one that is challenging for the Stanley Cup. The sum of his moves have changed that.

Our prospects are also very deep and the team looks great overall.

I think you have to measure it that way... We are way ahead of where we were.

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09-05-2008, 08:53 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Beakermania View Post
I agree with you McPhee....

Losing Johnson, Bonk and Cullimore are no big deal to me.

As far as T. and Zamboni goes... I think we need to look more at the whole and less at the individual parts of the team.

Gainey took over a team that fought to get in the playoffs and a very successful season was winning a playoff round. Now we are a deeper team, one that is challenging for the Stanley Cup. The sum of his moves have changed that.

Our prospects are also very deep and the team looks great overall.

I think you have to measure it that way... We are way ahead of where we were.
You can go over things point by point and try and attribute who contributed what and it's all valid, but I agree with Goldthorpe's post. Some player evaluations have been faulty, some have been good, but there's more to the job than every player movement. There's having and keeping a good staff from top to bottom, the presence, the whole works.


Anyways, off on vacation, hopefully next time I'm here we're arguing whether they overpaid for impact player x.

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09-05-2008, 08:55 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiredman View Post
the good :
signing hamrlik
re-signing markov
re-signing koivu
re-signing kovalev
acquiring huet
acquiring bonk
acquiring kovalev
trading grabovski
acquiring tanguay and laraque (at least, i think they are good moves)
naming timmins as head scout
hiring guy carbonneau

the bad:
trading ribeiro for niinimaa
not-resigning bonk and johnson
trading his veteran goalie before the playoffs for a 2nd round pick
losing beauchemin and hainsey to waivers
bad free agent signings(samsonov, smoke, dandenault)
losing ivanans for nothing
buying out cullimore who could have helped the team last season

if we take a look at the roster we have

gainey is responsable for having acquired :
bégin
brisebois
dandenault
gorges
hamrlik
kostopoulos
kovalev
laraque
tanguay

savard is reponsable for having acquired :
bouillon
kostitsyn brothers
plekanec
higgins
komisarek
halak
lapierre
o'byrne

timmins (i know he's linked with gainey but i decided to separate them) is responsable for having acquired :
chipchura
latendresse
price

s.savard is responsable for having acquired :
koivu

houle is responsable for having acquired :
markov

so, the guy who had the most positive influence on the team is andre savard. so, it's not fair to give all the praise to gainey.

we also missed the playoffs 2 seasons on 5 seasons since gainey arrived.

my opinion : B-
Sergei was drafted in 2005, same as Price and Latendresse... so, they should all be in the same group...



and, you didnt splitt Savard/Timmins when A.S. was GM, why doing so under Gainey's tenure... just so it doesnt look that good ?

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Old
09-05-2008, 09:09 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
Sergei was drafted in 2005, same as Price and Latendresse... so, they should all be in the same group...



and, you didnt splitt Savard/Timmins when A.S. was GM, why doing so under Gainey's tenure... just so it doesnt look that good ?
it is well known that sergei was a savard pick. he pushed hard to get him... he even wanted to draft him in the 2nd round but gainey refused.

Quote:
Il a aussi confié qu'il avait eu un mot à dire dans le repêchage de Sergei Kostitsyn en 2005, dans son rôle plus limité d'adjoint à Bob Gainey.

«J'ai poussé fort pour que le Canadien le repêche après l'avoir vu jouer au championnat mondial junior à Grand Forks, a-t-il confié. D'avoir réussi à mettre la main sur un tel joueur en septième ronde représente tout un boni pour le Canadien.»
it tells everything if he pushed hard to get him and they only accepted to draft him in the last round. without savard, there are good chances we wouldn't have drafted sergei.

as for the timmins picks, like i said, you can put it in the gainey's category even if gainey wasn't directly responsable of their selections. Timmins started to work for the habs in 2004. He only worked with gainey as gm (at least, that's what i think).

savard also had a strong influence on the latendresse pick. he's the guy who convinced gainey to trade for the rangers pick to draft lats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcphee View Post
Good to see you back. T., it seems that we share a love for the bottom pairing, and 3rd,4th line guys. I'm just not sure I agree on these particular 3rd and 4th line guys.
I admit that it's true that my favourite players are most of the time bottom pairing dmans or 3rd/4th liners. I really think we missed Bonk last season. No matter how he did in Nashville (he wasn't even used in a defensive role and on the pk)... we lacked a big shutdown center to stop umberger's line in the series against the flyers. I think the duet Bonk/Johnson could have played this shutdown role since they did pretty well in the 06-07 and they could surely have helped us to kill penalties. Though, I agree that some people may see it as good moves to let them go. I would also have agreed with it if they were replaced... but they were not and smolinski/chipchura disapointed.

As for Cullimore, he had a pretty good season last year and could most probably have replaced brisebois easily...


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Old
09-05-2008, 09:59 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Beakermania View Post
I agree with you McPhee....

Losing Johnson, Bonk and Cullimore are no big deal to me.

As far as T. and Zamboni goes... I think we need to look more at the whole and less at the individual parts of the team.

Gainey took over a team that fought to get in the playoffs and a very successful season was winning a playoff round. Now we are a deeper team, one that is challenging for the Stanley Cup. The sum of his moves have changed that.

Our prospects are also very deep and the team looks great overall.

I think you have to measure it that way... We are way ahead of where we were.
Agreed. One must also give credit where credit is due and what I mean by that is every GM will make mistakes, even those who don't do anything. What differentiates good GM's to great GM's is the way they fix their mistakes.

I don't see Ribeiro as as big of a mistake as some make it out to be. Yes, he's gone and had a good season but he wasn't doing that in Montreal. Also, it's an addition by subtraction. He got rid of the click, Theodore, Dagenais and Ribeiro. Let's not forget that Gainey was behind the bench and saw what he had to see and what needed to occur in order to improve the team. If he got that little for Ribeiro, I honestly believe that it was the best offer out there. It's unfortunate the we didn't get more or that Niniima didn't pan out for us, but it was a calculated gamble. It also gave Plekanec the much needed playing time and we all know what he's doing for us since that trade.

Another example is the Samsonov story. Yes, Gainey made a mistake in signing him (hindsight being 20-20 that is), but I just loved the way he handled the whole ordeal. Twice Samsonov went public, the second time saying that if he wasn't going to get played, they should trade him. What did Gainey do? He didn't go to the media, he managed the situation as only a great General Manager would do. He immediately proceeded to put him on waivers. When Sammy wasn't claimed, he put him through re-entry waivers where any team could have picked him up at half price. What happened then? As we know, he wasn't claimed so Gainey basically showed him that he offered him to every NHL team for half his salary and no one wanted him! Smack right in the face!

Those are only a couple of examples identified by some in here as negatives, but if we really dig a bit deeper, they demonstrate how great of a GM Bob Gainey truly is. No panic, doesn't take crap from anyone (remember the comment about the Brisebois' boo-birds? Only he could have pulled that off! ) including the tough Montreal media, a GM who's secure in his position and who's respected league-wide.

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Old
09-05-2008, 10:02 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by tiredman View Post
it is well known that sergei was a savard pick. he pushed hard to get him... he even wanted to draft him in the 2nd round but gainey refused.



it tells everything if he pushed hard to get him and they only accepted to draft him in the last round. without savard, there are good chances we wouldn't have drafted sergei.

as for the timmins picks, like i said, you can put it in the gainey's category even if gainey wasn't directly responsable of their selections. Timmins started to work for the habs in 2004. He only worked with gainey as gm (at least, that's what i think).

savard also had a strong influence on the latendresse pick. he's the guy who convinced gainey to trade for the rangers pick to draft lats.
Sergei and Lats were both 2005 picks.... so which one was Savard pushing for in the second round again???

Way to distort the facts to make your boy look better, and take credit away from Gainey.

It was Timmins who said that 2nd round was too early for Sergei and that they should take him but later. He knew noone else was looking at him and he could steal him later. It was also him who recommended Lats with the second rounder instead.



Gainey is the GM he made the final call on every decision... every draft pick... He is the reason Timmins and Savard had (or kept) their jobs. He is ultimately responsible for every hockey decision.

We don't absolve him for the bad pro scouting that led to the Samsonov, Ninimmaa, Dandenault, Smolinski, etc moves. The pro scouts who recommended these guys do not take the blame; Gainey does. In the same way Gainey gets credit when his Amateur scouts who recommended Sergei, Lats, etc.. make good moves. He doesn't lose the credit cause one of his employees recomended the move.

Remember the Price pick... Timmins asked Gainey do you want a Franchise Goalie (Price) or a Franchise Defenceman (Mark Staal is the speculation).. and Gainey said take the Goalie.

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09-05-2008, 10:18 PM
  #71
tiredman
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Originally Posted by Beakermania View Post
Sergei and Lats were both 2005 picks.... so which one was Savard pushing for in the second round again???

Way to distort the facts to make your boy look better.

Gainey is the GM he made the final call on every decision... every draft pick... He is the reason Timmins and Savard had (or kept) their jobs. He is ultimately responsible for every hockey decision.

We don't absolve him for the bad pro scouting that led to the Samsonov, Ninimmaa, Dandenault, Smolinski, etc moves. The pro scouts who recommended these guys do not take the blame; Gainey does. In the same way Gainey gets credit when his Amateur scouts who recommended Sergei, Lats, etc.. make good moves. He doesn't lose the credit cause one of his employees recomended the move.
before taking shots at others ("my boy"), read these articles:

http://www.cyberpresse.ca/article/20...TS/607040600/0
Quote:
Savard s'est beaucoup impliqué dans les repêchages de 2001 et 2002, ce qui lui a permis de mettre la main sur quatre joueurs du calibre de la LNH, Mike Komisarek, Alexander Perezhogin, Tomas Plekanec et Chris Higgins. Il a également eu beaucoup d'influence sur les choix au repêchage de 2005, dont Guillaume Latendresse. C'est d'ailleurs lui qui a effectué la transaction avec les Rangers pour mettre la main sur ce deuxième choix des « Blue Shirts» qui a permis à l'équipe d'obtenir Latendresse.

Comme le soulignait avec beaucoup de justesse le collègue François Gagnon, hier, un autre de ses bons coups aura été de convaincre Gainey d'acquérir Steve Bégin au ballottage. Par la suite, l'influence de Savard auprès de Gainey n'a cessé de diminuer au profit de Pierre Gauthier.
http://www2.canoe.com/sports/nouvell...22-115511.html
Quote:
Il a aussi confié qu'il avait eu un mot à dire dans le repêchage de Sergei Kostitsyn en 2005, dans son rôle plus limité d'adjoint à Bob Gainey.

«J'ai poussé fort pour que le Canadien le repêche après l'avoir vu jouer au championnat mondial junior à Grand Forks, a-t-il confié. D'avoir réussi à mettre la main sur un tel joueur en septième ronde représente tout un boni pour le Canadien.»
and gainey deserves credit for having hired timmins. i said it and that was a great move. now, forget your idea about gainey deserves credit for everything. when you do something at your job, would you be happy if your boss would get all the credit for your work ? that's the same situation here. timmins, savard and the scouts did their jobs. gainey had little to do about the picks (and that's normal, he's most of the time following his team in the nhl, not amateur teams).

though, he has a more important role when it comes to sign ufa or trade players. like i said, he follows his team, so he sees other's teams players too. it's true however that he has pro scouts to help him doing his job and that he doesn't deserve all the blame for the bad signings and trades.

as for your question about who he wanted in the 2nd round, it's apparently latendresse (according to the article). though, i'm pretty sure i read somewhere that he also pushed to get sergei in the 2nd round. i don't remember where i read it. maybe he tried to convince gainey to get another 2nd rnd pick.

note: when i say timmins or savard, it also includes the others scouts who helped them in their tasks.


Last edited by tiredman: 09-05-2008 at 10:28 PM.
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Old
09-05-2008, 10:28 PM
  #72
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A + .... to Trevor Timmings, Savard and scout staff !

C ... to Gainey (Laraque & Tanguay , Hamrlik , Kovalev , Gorges = Awesome moves) , other acquisition = nothing


Last edited by KovalevDeke: 09-05-2008 at 10:35 PM.
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09-05-2008, 10:32 PM
  #73
Beakermania*
 
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Originally Posted by tiredman View Post
and gainey deserves credit for having hired timmins. i said it and that was a great move. now, forget your idea about gainey deserves credit for everything. when you do something at your job, would you be happy if your boss would get all the credit for your work ? that's the same situation here. timmins, savard and the scouts did their jobs. gainey had little to do about the picks (and that's normal, he's most of the time following his team in the nhl, not amateur teams).

though, he has a more important role when it comes to sign ufa or trade players. like i said, he follows his team, so he sees other's teams players too. it's true however that he has pro scouts to help him doing his job and that he doesn't deserve all the blame for the bad signings and trades.

as for your question about who he wanted in the 2nd round, it's apparently latendresse (according to the article). though, i'm pretty sure i read somewhere that he also pushed to get sergei in the 2nd round. i don't remember where i read it. maybe he tried to convince gainey to get another 2nd rnd pick.
Eventually the buck has to stop somewhere.... if Timmins and Savard had two different opinions, who do you think made the decision on which opinion he would go with?? Thats right Gainey.

Any Good CEO is responsible for every decision that happens underneath him. The buck stops somewhere. In the Habs case as far as hockey operations are concerned the buck stops with Bob Gainey. His job as GM is to put good hockey people in the positions underneath him to watch amateur teams... to pro scout other teams... to do all the things that it would be impossible for one person to do. Any big company CEO has the same role, put people in those positions and let them do their jobs.

Do you think Bill Gates when he was owner/manager of microsoft wrote every bit of code for Windows, Office, the XBOX, and all of Microsoft's other programs. Of course not. But he's the one who gets the credit, cause he put good programers, advertising execs, HR people, etc in place and then let them do their jobs. When people had big enough disputes he settled them and kept the company running.... He gets the credit.

Its a tough job, but every hockey decision made under Gainey's regime comes back to one man... Bob Gainey. Timmins and Savard may have done great in their roles, but it is Bob Gainey who put them in those roles and directed them. Thats how the world works. The boss always gets credit/blame for the actions of his employees.

Now if he chooses to promote those employees, or praise them pubilically, or someone else hires them to do a job in their organization, or they get fired etc... well thats the recognition they get for a job well done.

But ultimately you can't say Timmins is solely responsible for Carey Price or for McDonagh or that Savard is responsible for the Kostitsyns etc.... Players acquired on Gaineys watch are his players, with the assist to the scouts.

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09-05-2008, 10:41 PM
  #74
Habsterix*
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Originally Posted by tiredman View Post
before taking shots at others ("my boy"), read these articles:

http://www.cyberpresse.ca/article/20...TS/607040600/0


http://www2.canoe.com/sports/nouvell...22-115511.html


and gainey deserves credit for having hired timmins. i said it and that was a great move. now, forget your idea about gainey deserves credit for everything. when you do something at your job, would you be happy if your boss would get all the credit for your work ? that's the same situation here. timmins, savard and the scouts did their jobs. gainey had little to do about the picks (and that's normal, he's most of the time following his team in the nhl, not amateur teams).

though, he has a more important role when it comes to sign ufa or trade players. like i said, he follows his team, so he sees other's teams players too. it's true however that he has pro scouts to help him doing his job and that he doesn't deserve all the blame for the bad signings and trades.

as for your question about who he wanted in the 2nd round, it's apparently latendresse (according to the article). though, i'm pretty sure i read somewhere that he also pushed to get sergei in the 2nd round. i don't remember where i read it. maybe he tried to convince gainey to get another 2nd rnd pick.

note: when i say timmins or savard, it also includes the others scouts who helped them in their tasks.
From reading those quotes, it sure sounds like Savard likes tooting his own horn, whether it's true or not. So we have one side of the story. It's unfortunate that we may never get the other side in order to make an educated estimation.

I think that the point you're missing and that Beakermania is trying to get through is the fact that no matter how hard one person pushes an idea, whether his name is Andre Savard or Trevor Timmins, Gainey has the ultimate last choice. If he takes the blame for scouting mistakes, it seems only fair that he'd take the credit for the good as well. Can't have it both ways.

Last but not least, didn't Savard quit over the fact that Gainey wasn't listening to him enough?

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Old
09-05-2008, 10:47 PM
  #75
Krautso
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Even timmins can't be everywhere at once. We have pro scouts, amateur scouts, euro scouts. Give credit to the actual guys watching the players, Timmins basically just passed on their findings to Bob anyway.

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