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Rumor - Shanny Back?

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Old
09-10-2008, 09:11 AM
  #101
Nich
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guess i am one of the few without a problem of bringing back shanny.

we will need to move voros or risswhatever

but i can easily see....

dawes - gomez - zman
nasland - dubinsky - prucha
shanny - drury - callahan
frische - blair - korpedo

ex - orr, rissmiller......

i can sign on to that....

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09-10-2008, 09:26 AM
  #102
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I honestly don't know what to make of the Shanny situation. He wants to play here and Sather says the door is open. I get a feeling that this is more than a tryout for Shanny and more a tryout for some guys like Rissmiller or Prucha who he'd end up trying to clear salaries of the books in order to sign Shanny. I can't see a guy who scored 23 goals for the Rangers on a team that struggled to score goals having a tryout that can be compared to Nedved, or even Voros, Rissmiller or Prucha. And this is a guy who likely could sign elsewhere but is holding onto the Rangers. But then again, Sather can go over the cap by a bit before the season begins so it's not totally about the cap, so I don't know what I'm talking about (except I do think that if he was signed, even with the other 15 forwards vying for position, he's in the top 9 on Renney's team without a doubt).

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09-10-2008, 09:42 AM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrooklynRangersFan View Post

Billy, what you fail to see is that - regardless of what might be said at the time of signing - when the games actually start, Shanny will immediately move into the role of 2nd line winger the moment the team hits its first rough patch.

You see it time and time again. It's a crutch for the coach. He feels heat, he has to do something, so he puts in the guy who has done it before - even if that guy doesn't have it anymore. That way he can say "hey, I put in the sure fire hall of famer. It's not my fault he didn't perform." (And conversely, if he puts the kid in OVER the sure fire HOF and it doesn't work out... he leaves himself open to second guessing and job worries.)

As Rangers fans who lived through Mark Messier part II, we are intimately familiar with this phenomenon. If you want to transition the team, you cannot have Shanny on the roster
.
This is what some of the fans coming in here have a problem understanding.

The people here that dont want Shanahan on this team aren't "Shanny haters" as someone so eloquently put it, but its about Renney and how he'll deploy Shanahan.

I'm sure a majority of fans here love Shanahan and what he could bring to this team, but its not about that. What's so wrong with taking another perspective on this? Suddenly its heresy to not want bring back an aging HOF who's going to be "good with the kids" and pop in his 20-25 goals? Thats exactly what was wrong with this team for years - and if you recall it was almost a decade with no playoffs. I'm not really concerned with the result as far as Shanahan goes... its the process that i'm concerned with.

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09-10-2008, 09:42 AM
  #104
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Is anyone else ill at the thought of a whole additional year of the Rangers 5 on 3 dedicated to feeding Shanahan at the pinched-in point?

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09-10-2008, 09:47 AM
  #105
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If Shanny is on the 3rd line with Dubi and is only paid around 1 million I have no problem with him coming back in that reduced role where he can also be a PP specialist.

Another thing to consider is although he falls off a cliff after Jan 1 he usually is very good to start the season and with the amount of turnover we have yet again and not really being sure who will manufacture goals for this team having him there to pop in a few while things are being settled and chemistry being developed will be a plus as points won/lost in Oct are just as important as the one's being fought for down the stretch.

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09-10-2008, 09:55 AM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nyrJeff View Post
Is anyone else ill at the thought of a whole additional year of the Rangers 5 on 3 dedicated to feeding Shanahan at the pinched-in point?
Yes but it wont happen. Fast puck movement all around for 2008, which would mean limited PP time of any sort for Shanny to ''snipe''.

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09-10-2008, 09:56 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by bumrusherer View Post
Yes but it wont happen. Fast puck movement all around for 2008, which would mean limited PP time of any sort for Shanny to ''snipe''.
Yeah, right. I'll believe it when I see it.

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09-10-2008, 10:01 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by JA#11 View Post
If Shanny is on the 3rd line with Dubi and is only paid around 1 million I have no problem with him coming back in that reduced role where he can also be a PP specialist.
But you say that without knowing if he's a better or worse option than Callahan, Korpikoski or Voros at this point, all of which are already under contract with the team.

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09-10-2008, 10:02 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by nyrJeff View Post
Yeah, right. I'll believe it when I see it.
Someone like Shanny was crucial for JJ when he was controlling the PP. Without JJ, Shanny's value on the PP ( or what is left of it ) is much less.

Its all about the guy whose name is under your name

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09-10-2008, 10:18 AM
  #110
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numrusher...without ANY playmaker on the PP not too many goals with be scored. Shanny has a better shot on the PP than any current Ranger. Get him the puck, and he'll give you a better shot at scoring than most any Ranger, most likely. If the playmaker isn't replaced, the PP could struggle signifcantly (or would need to be altered).

Too many people think the PP is something that's simple. There's a reason why some teams excel at it and many do not. It's not all about bringing the puck up, or setting up, or having a guy in front, or a guy down low (a la Jagr); it's trying to put that all together and/or developing a successful style that suits the team. No Jagr doesn't automatically mean a successful PP (and remember, this team had a very good PP with Jagr the two seasons after the lockout, even though none of us were happy about it). It could be worse; there are teams with worse PP stats. Gomez hasn't been a centerman on too many great PP teams, and he's the one most likely to step into Jagr's role as a setup guy. It still needs work and those looking for the PPs with booming point shots and big bodies in front of the net may be disappointed this season.

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09-10-2008, 10:34 AM
  #111
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I honestly do not understand you guys and you're default blame renney tactic.

first it was "damn renney change up the lines cmon"

than it was "DAMN RENNEY STOP CHANGING THE LINES!!!!"

last year it was "RENNEY YOU FAIL AT THE PP" (when infact its perry pern who fails as the PP coach)

and this year its " wow renney you have no idea what you are doing and how to use players"


Ok i don't know if some people realized this but we got to the playoffs 3 straight years and all those wins and great games didn't Just come out of thin air , yes the players provided the skills but renney tought a well thought out system ,the guy is obviously doing something right.

and if recall right it was SHANAHAN'S idea to keep playing despite being injured because he didn't want the team to miss the playoffs.

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09-10-2008, 10:43 AM
  #112
KreiMeARiver
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Yes, bring him back! Make him Captain!!!!

Shannyyyyy!

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09-10-2008, 10:43 AM
  #113
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I'm late to this party, obviously. Nevertheless: NO TO SHANNY!

Unless he wants to take the minimum to kill penalties and play on the fourth line, I'm not interested.

__________________

It's just pain.
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09-10-2008, 10:45 AM
  #114
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def not captain

looooooooow salary


if anything

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09-10-2008, 01:14 PM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
so you want the team to score as many goals as they did last year this year?.....

you obviously didnt fully read what i wrote, i said i dont want shanny back because he is, at this point in his career, a 3rd line player.....how many goals would you expect from him on the third line without top pp minutes and not playing with a player like gomez?......honestly answer the question....most players would have worse years if their minutes went down, they lost their pp time and went from playing with the teams best playmaker to the third line....but hey, maybe shanny could do it.
Of course not. That said, what was he, 2 goals behind the team leaders in Drury and Jags? You really want that taken out of the equation?

I read what you wrote, and it's a weak argument, at best. I can't tell the future, but keeping up with the 'leaders' in goals on this team isn't a bad thing. Move him down and of course his numbers will follow, but it's not like his game is going to fall off the face of the earth on the 3rd line.

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Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
i have no problem with his mentoring skills, but at some point you have to say think you and move on.....honestly, you would rather play shanahan on the back-end of his career than give some playing time to callahan or fritsche?....two young players with promise...

and dont tell me i am overvaluing them because i have stated it many times....i like players who force the issue, get in the other teams face and cause things to happen instead of reacting.....if you watched shanny last season he doesnt go into the dirty areas and battle for the puck....he dumps the puck in or shoots from the outside because he doesnt have the speed or the power to do so anymore.......
I'm not bothered by the percieved 'over valuing' as much as I am curious about the blatant under valuing of Shanny. Yes, Shanny is no longer who he once was. No we will not see 30 goals from him anymore. Even still, at this stage, he's more than capable of playing; my point proven by the fact that everyone talks about how many steps he's lost yet he's still a top point getter on the team (Or should I say goal getter).

And honestly, Yes. I would put Shanny on the back end of his career over Fritsche and Cally, at the current time. I honestly think (hope) Frits will break out and have a great career here in NY, but right now, Shanny is better on so many levels not named speed/agility. Same goes for Cally. I'm not saying give Shanny a shot because he's old, that would be a regression. I'm saying keep a valuable piece of the team, someone who can gel with basically anyone, and more than anyone since Messier can lead this team. To what exactly, well I don't know, and it's foolish to expect a SC this year, but it's a long season, with a lot of new guys. I'll take the experience and leadership this year, with getting as many kids to play as possible over any other option.



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but hey, maybe im totally incompetent and cant appreciate anyone who plays this game at any level.......or maybe i just see players for what they are NOW and not what they used to be over their entire career
You said it...

I'm very strongly pro-youth movement on this team. But we can't go overboard and clear the slate completely just to fit youngsters. For the first time in a while our curse is a glut of legit potential, let's not **** this up. I'm not going to be surprised wither way if Shanny is let go, or resigned. But I feel he is being written off far to easily, and the kids are being hyped way too much. Let's come back to earth people.

We're on a message board, no personal attack meant in my post, but people are going to disagree with you.

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09-10-2008, 02:18 PM
  #116
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immortal...

when it comes to Shanny, here's where I believe people around coming from.

Two seasons ago I complained when I saw Shanny taking regular PK shifts and getting 20 minutes per night. My thought process was he's going on 38 years old and his body has been through a lot. Additionally, and more importantly, I noted that in the prior season he was averaging a bit more than 16 minutes per game and not playing on the PK (while in Detroit). Personally, I thought Renney was overusing him (since he was getting about 4 minutes more ice time (during the first 1/2 of that season) and he was a year older than when he was in Detroit), and it seemed to me as if the guy was running out of gas even prior to his run-in with Knuble.

Season two - it was more of the same - around 20 minutes per night to begin the season, significant PP time and by mid-season he was out of gas again.

Honestly, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that perhaps as Shanny got older he should play a little less. Renney believed he was the best option and I believe Renney was also remembering Shanny for what he was moreso than what he is. Since January Renney seemed to get it a bit more and play him a bit less on more occasions. But the fear is how he'd use Shanny if he were to become a Ranger again. All your points about fans' erratic postings are well-taken, but I think the above points have been pretty consistent and present good arguments that Renney didn't do the right thing with Shanny (unless of course the alternative, i.e., play him less and the substitute would do worse, but I don't think so considering this is a guy who went 8 games straight without a point and another 8 without a goal last season).

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09-10-2008, 02:24 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by NYRSinceBirth View Post
Of course not. That said, what was he, 2 goals behind the team leaders in Drury and Jags? You really want that taken out of the equation?

I read what you wrote, and it's a weak argument, at best. I can't tell the future, but keeping up with the 'leaders' in goals on this team isn't a bad thing. Move him down and of course his numbers will follow, but it's not like his game is going to fall off the face of the earth on the 3rd line.



I'm not bothered by the percieved 'over valuing' as much as I am curious about the blatant under valuing of Shanny. Yes, Shanny is no longer who he once was. No we will not see 30 goals from him anymore. Even still, at this stage, he's more than capable of playing; my point proven by the fact that everyone talks about how many steps he's lost yet he's still a top point getter on the team (Or should I say goal getter).

And honestly, Yes. I would put Shanny on the back end of his career over Fritsche and Cally, at the current time. I honestly think (hope) Frits will break out and have a great career here in NY, but right now, Shanny is better on so many levels not named speed/agility. Same goes for Cally. I'm not saying give Shanny a shot because he's old, that would be a regression. I'm saying keep a valuable piece of the team, someone who can gel with basically anyone, and more than anyone since Messier can lead this team. To what exactly, well I don't know, and it's foolish to expect a SC this year, but it's a long season, with a lot of new guys. I'll take the experience and leadership this year, with getting as many kids to play as possible over any other option.





You said it...

I'm very strongly pro-youth movement on this team. But we can't go overboard and clear the slate completely just to fit youngsters. For the first time in a while our curse is a glut of legit potential, let's not **** this up. I'm not going to be surprised wither way if Shanny is let go, or resigned. But I feel he is being written off far to easily, and the kids are being hyped way too much. Let's come back to earth people.

We're on a message board, no personal attack meant in my post, but people are going to disagree with you.
i understand what you are saying....

i dont think we value the same things in a player....you like goal scoring ability and i like fiestiness and ability to go into the tough areas to win the puck.....

i think you understand where i stand and i understand where you stand and i dont think we are going to change each others opinions so i think we will have to agree to disagree and see what happens

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09-10-2008, 02:36 PM
  #118
HockeyBasedNYC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
when it comes to Shanny, here's where I believe people around coming from.

Two seasons ago I complained when I saw Shanny taking regular PK shifts and getting 20 minutes per night. My thought process was he's going on 38 years old and his body has been through a lot. Additionally, and more importantly, I noted that in the prior season he was averaging a bit more than 16 minutes per game and not playing on the PK (while in Detroit). Personally, I thought Renney was overusing him (since he was getting about 4 minutes more ice time (during the first 1/2 of that season) and he was a year older than when he was in Detroit), and it seemed to me as if the guy was running out of gas even prior to his run-in with Knuble.

Season two - it was more of the same - around 20 minutes per night to begin the season, significant PP time and by mid-season he was out of gas again.

Honestly, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that perhaps as Shanny got older he should play a little less. Renney believed he was the best option and I believe Renney was also remembering Shanny for what he was moreso than what he is. Since January Renney seemed to get it a bit more and play him a bit less on more occasions. But the fear is how he'd use Shanny if he were to become a Ranger again. All your points about fans' erratic postings are well-taken, but I think the above points have been pretty consistent and present good arguments that Renney didn't do the right thing with Shanny (unless of course the alternative, i.e., play him less and the substitute would do worse, but I don't think so considering this is a guy who went 8 games straight without a point and another 8 without a goal last season).
I wish i could tag this post as a link everytime someone brings up the argument that Shanahan will be used in a lesser role this time around.

I was screaming about the same PK problem in season one, and not only him but Straka as well. Renney was burning those two out.

The one time Renney did the right thing is last season when Shanny slowed down, gets banged up a bit and they decide to give him a full weeks rest at the end of January. He responds with 6 goals, 10 points in the next 10 games. He then plays 21 games in 50 nights, 10 of them playoff games - pretty much every other night getting 20 minutes and falls right back into the same pattern.

Who knows, if he's signed Renney could totally do a 180 and give him the appropriate amount of playing time, but theres no indication I should believe that right now provided whats happened the last 2 seasons.

To further enhance this perspective, if you want to talk numbers - take a look at the first half compared to the last half for the last two seasons:

1st half 70 GP - 15 G, 30 Points and 23 G, 40 Points for a total of 38 G, 70 Points
2nd half 70 GP - 8 G, 16 Points and 6 G, 22 Points for a total of 14 G, 38 Points

Same amount of games... whether that is a result of the games piling up, the injuries themselves, old age or the misusage of Renney is up to your discretion.


Last edited by HockeyBasedNYC: 09-10-2008 at 02:52 PM.
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Old
09-10-2008, 02:40 PM
  #119
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Yeah, people saying NO to Shanny, but YES to Prucha on the first line hahaha color me confused!

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09-10-2008, 02:43 PM
  #120
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not sure if it's been mentioned but aside from my feelings about Shanny on the 08-09 season I love this quote from him in the post:

So if the door is open for Shanahan, it seems that money would be the only complication. To wit, how much (or comparatively little) is Shanahan willing to accept to fulfill his desire to return to the Rangers, as opposed to how much more he might be able to get to play his 21st NHL season somewhere else?

"I've never talked about money in my whole career, and I'm not going to start now," said Shanahan, who has skated at the Rangers' practice rink the last two days with a number of his past and perhaps future (current?) teammates. "What I'll say, though, is that I don't equate money with respect.


A little dig at JJ? Maybe, maybe not. I took it that way tho....

http://www.nypost.com/seven/09102008...ode_128388.htm

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09-10-2008, 03:07 PM
  #121
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Hbnyc...

I'm inclined to think that Renney does play him less than 20 minutes, but also think it would be more than 16 minutes. And if Shanny is getting less ice time and the Rangers are losing, then he gets more ice time. It still works that way around here.

To the argument about his goal scoring...the question is will that be replaced and/or will there be less goals against scored. Too often we look at a player and say 'he scored 25 goals and had a much better season than the guy who scored 15 goals'. On the surface it looks like that, but it's not necessarily true. While the objective is to score more than your opponent, it's a team game and you have to get there because one player isn't going to score 240 goals in a season. And one shift doesn't typically make the game. And in a way, goals are random, meaning a goalie may face 30 shots in a game and give up 2.5 goals on those shots. The 27.5 that were saved could've been much better chances than the 2.5 scored. So in a way, many of the ones that get through are random (and those shooting more or getting more chances will score more). But very often a goal can be an accumulation of events. Tiring out a goalie. Tiring out a defense which can force them into a mistake. A good defensive play leading to a transition the other way. Could Shanny have been a beneficiary of others' play while not contributing to the ultimate flow that caused such goals? It's a 60 minute game that's played 82 games during a regular season and too often we don't talk about 59 minutes of the game that setup how the game was played and where to goals come from.

I actually don't know the answer and sometimes don't know if a replacement for Shanny would do any better (i.e., would he score as many goals and if not would he contribute to play such that his efforts can lead to others' goals when he's not on the ice (like contributing to a cycle that last one minute and the line gets off the ice keeping the other teams' unit of five out there while the next Rangers' line scores a goal). It's a team game and always isn't about 23 goals for one guy vs. the replacement who may only be at 16.

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09-10-2008, 03:28 PM
  #122
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Correct, and we saw how important that possession game was for Detroit last year.

With a good goalie like Henrik in net you'd think it would only be wise to try and play to a similar tune. Easier said than done, but Renney and the staff have hinted at attempting such an approach.

To me, Shanahan would be detrimental to that plan more than he would be a help - so it kind of flies in the face of their "plan".

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09-10-2008, 04:03 PM
  #123
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Shanny wouldn't be able to play that kind of game, no doubt. I'm not sure what the thinking is behind them considering bringing him back but assume it's leadership (yeah, we're sick of that word and even Shanny doesn't want to hear it), PP (his right handed shot from the left side is still pretty accurate) and PK (I think he was the team's best PKer last season and it's funny saying that but on the PK, you really cannot hide, and he didn't). As well, as Sather looks as his roster he sees five guys who have topped 20 goals in their career. One is Prucha and the other is Gomez (who did it once). Does Sather feel this team is lacking scoring depth and are dependent to guys like Naslund regaining form, Dawes breaking out, Dubi not having a sophomore slump without Jagr, etc.

Just trying to get behind the thinking of the masterminds. I believe they're interested based on Shanny's comments, and I don't think they'd lead him astray. Perhaps he's working on a player/coach deal and so they can pay him more and not have the cap hit (is that even possible?).

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09-10-2008, 04:35 PM
  #124
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I see Shanny at this point in his career as a Lanny MacDonald type like on Calgary in 1989. Calgary won with a lot of youth but needed the Peplinskis and MacDonalds of the world to just keep everybody balanced.



Looking at the lineup, Shanahan will NOT get second-line minutes unless he earns it. You have to give Renney credit....if you play well, he plays you. Dawes, Callahan, Dubinsky, Staal, Prucha in 2006 etc. are all examples of how Renney thinks.


That being said, he's still a guy who leans on vets. And I could easily see the Prucha merry-go-round begin with Shanny moving up to the third oor second line.

Shanny's shootout numbers alone are good for 3-5 wins. I say sign him, only if we can fit him under the cap. Just because we signed Voros and Rissmiller doesn't mean they HAVE to play.

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09-10-2008, 04:53 PM
  #125
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if he will play on the 4th line....i would sign him in a second....give him pp and pk time and let him shoot in shootouts to keep his minutes down.....honestly, i dont even want to see him with dubinsky on the 3rd line because i think he would be better suited to someone with more speed.....drury and shanahan dont work as we all saw and if gomez has to skate circles around shanahan again this year i will jump out of a window(granted, only one that is on the 1st floor but you get my point)

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