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Where Would You Put Lats?

View Poll Results: Where Would You Put Lats?
1st Line (He was so good when Higgie was injured in 07) 7 3.91%
2nd Line 32 17.88%
3rd Line 108 60.34%
4th Line 15 8.38%
Hamilton (Slow ass ****** needs to work on his skating!!!) 17 9.50%
Voters: 179. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
09-09-2008, 01:32 AM
  #76
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he'll go where he should, however right now i'm thinking 3rd line.

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09-09-2008, 03:35 AM
  #77
Mr. Hab
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beakermania View Post
I don't think of it so much as accomodating Lats as acknowledging his strengths and weaknesses.... Lats is a guy who can go to the net and bang in goals, he is not gonna be the guy who is gonna control the play and the puck on his line. Quite frankly he can't create goals without help.

Here's an example. As a team we may be better off if Lats plays with Koivu and scores 25 goals.... and Higgins plays on the third line where he can be a guy who can skate with the puck and Higgins scores 20 away from Koivu. Then if we play Higgins With Koivu and He scores 30 goals.... and Latendresse on the the third line scores 10. 45 total goals vs 40 total goals.

Higgins and Koivu > Latendresse and Koivu.
But
Latendresse and Koivu + Higgins (3rd line) > Koivu and Higgins + Lats (3rd Line)

Its something to think about....

Does the balancing the lines and maybe putting Lats on the 2nd line make for a better team than one where the top 4 wingers are on the top 2 lines... and the third line has the 5th and 6th best guys together??

Until you experiment with it you never know. But I don't think trying both combos is wrong.
I know what Lats can do (seen a little of it) but he can disappear and it really slows down the line (nothing happens to that line, no energy, no speed). I know...we have to give Lats (at least) another 2 years, but that's the thing: he cannot slow us down while we're trying to be contenders. There's pressure on him to do well now and make himself noticeable and not only when he's playing with Koivu 'cause I've seen him create nothing for 15-20 games WHILE PLAYING WITH KOIVU (& it really slowed the line down). My prediction: he'll be ready for top 6 action in a year or two, not now.
We need a PF like him for our top 6, but is Lats ready now? (I'm not so sure; of course Lats will say he's ready now).

And, I'm a firm believer of balanced lines (not just 1 or 2 lines).
Example: I loved it (back in the day) when the Devils had 4 solid lines (also 'cause they had so much depth in Rolston, Guerin, Richer, C.Lemieux, McKay, McLean, Brylin, etc...and I'm missing a lot of great names).

I just don't want to see someone else get demoted because they feel Lats has to get his 20-25 goals and it will only happen with Koivu or Plekanec.
Sergei Kosts, Higgins should be ahead right now (IMO) with Lats there on the 3rd playing well, hustling, and not just waiting for an injury to happen so as to get more exposure and chances to attain that 20-25 goal plateau with Koivu (+ more $$$ when agent makes new contract for Lats). I would only want Higgins on the third with Koivu (IF Sundin enters the picture...IF). IF I'm Koivu I'd rather play with Sergei Kosts, Higgs, A. Kosts, Tanguay, Kovalev, than...Lats. (not saying that's waht Koivu is wishing, but you never know!! in the end the coach will make the decisions & I hope he'll make the right ones...Carbo wasn't afraid to bench Lats last year & I'm not hoping it happens this year).

Anyways, I'll be back to write some more later...


Last edited by Mr. Hab: 09-09-2008 at 03:58 AM.
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09-09-2008, 08:34 AM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Hab View Post
I just don't want to see someone else get demoted because they feel Lats has to get his 20-25 goals and it will only happen with Koivu or Plekanec.
Sergei Kosts, Higgins should be ahead right now (IMO) with Lats there on the 3rd playing well, hustling, and not just waiting for an injury to happen so as to get more exposure and chances to attain that 20-25 goal plateau with Koivu (+ more $$$ when agent makes new contract for Lats). I would only want Higgins on the third with Koivu (IF Sundin enters the picture...IF). IF I'm Koivu I'd rather play with Sergei Kosts, Higgs, A. Kosts, Tanguay, Kovalev, than...Lats. (not saying that's waht Koivu is wishing, but you never know!! in the end the coach will make the decisions & I hope he'll make the right ones...Carbo wasn't afraid to bench Lats last year & I'm not hoping it happens this year).

Anyways, I'll be back to write some more later...
Its not about demoting them... and its not about doing it just so Lats "has to get his goals"... its about what is best for the team.

There is an argument to be made that the team may be better off with
Tanguay - Koivu - Lats
Higgins - Chips - Sergei

then they would be with Lats on the third line and one of the other two on the second.

Its not saying Lats is better than Sergei or Higgins, it just may be the best way to set up the lines. Or it could be best to have Lats on the third. But I don't think we can automatically dismiss this lineup as being good for Lats and bad for the team, cause I don't think that it necessarily has to be the case. Its possible that it is best for all involved.

The biggest thing is winning, and we should be prepared to experiment in the preseason to see what type of lineup will give us more wins.

Heck even a lineup with
Lats - Pleks - Kovalev
Tanguay - Koivu - Andrei
Higgins - Chips - Sergei

Might be something to try too.... There are definitely arguments that could be made for trying something like this on paper. Would it work on the ice?? Can't knock it till you try it.

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Old
09-09-2008, 09:22 AM
  #79
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Lats will go where Carbo sends him. His position on the team will be re-evaluated from game to game and from shift to shift.

Carbo will give the vets a little more leaway, but a 21 year old will have to keep proving himself. It took forever for Carbo to bench Ryder last year. It took him forever to bench Samsonov the year before. When it comes to young guys, Carbo isn't that patient and he shouldn't be otherwise he'll be fired by Christmas.

So Carbo will try Lats here and there during camp, and where ever he feels he can help most is where he is going to end up. I would prefer a scoring line with a center who can feed him, that's why Sundin is so important, but Carbo can also chose to put him with Kostopoulos and Lapierre.

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09-09-2008, 09:28 AM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Hab View Post
Lats needs this.
Lats needs that.
Lats needs only this center, or else...

Why the constant accomodation for Latendresse? (the HABS shouldn't have to babysit/accomodate him...Lats needs to perform with anyone he's given instead of always waiting to play with a "better" center). And, I've seen Lats go through LONG SLUMPS where he is the obvious WEAK LINK and this while playing with Koivu, so...
Would you play Kovalev with Laraque and Chipchura?

As Beakermania says, it's looking at a player's strengths and where he'd fit best. He's not a checker but he's scored 16 goals in each of his first two seasons at 19 and 20 with limited ice time! He's a goals scorer, a big winger who will develop into a power forward in this league.

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09-09-2008, 09:39 AM
  #81
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Lats major problem is one that's very common with young players. ANd that's consistency. Most young players have to learn this. Keeping the intensity level up, when things aren't going your way.

Some games, everything goes right, 2 goals, a few good hits, a post or two, the puck follows you, etc. Next game, you're behind the play, can't get a shot, can't even get a hit. Those are the games that a guy like Lats has to learn to play. Make something happen, be part of the play rather than follow the play.

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09-09-2008, 09:39 AM
  #82
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For now I see him as third line, unless his summer workout and skating training can prove to out do S. Kots tendency to take it easy. Camp will decide for them 2nd or 3rd should be a good battle with S.Kots.

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09-09-2008, 12:45 PM
  #83
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galerie de presse
beat me to the punch

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09-09-2008, 01:27 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beakermania View Post
Its not about demoting them... and its not about doing it just so Lats "has to get his goals"... its about what is best for the team.

There is an argument to be made that the team may be better off with
Tanguay - Koivu - Lats
Higgins - Chips - Sergei

Heck even a lineup with
Lats - Pleks - Kovalev
Tanguay - Koivu - Andrei
Higgins - Chips - Sergei

Might be something to try too.... There are definitely arguments that could be made for trying something like this on paper. Would it work on the ice?? Can't knock it till you try it.
Sure. You never know what will happen. But as Carbs, wouldn't you be more excited about, and thus more likely to try, combinations of the players who played the best for you the year before (and played well together)? (Assuming no Sundin, or whomever) I would be more likely to:

a) Keep Kovalev and Plekanec the most icetime possible. Your two best producers from the year before, who also played together mind you.
b) Give both Kostys all the opportunity to contribute as top producers. As much icetime as possible/they can handle.
c) Put Tanguay on one of the top 2 lines icetime-wise... duh.
d) Keep Saku as the #2 centre. Another duh.

Now, we're left basically with Higgins and Lats as the two who haven't been mentioned yet (worth mentioning). Despite being healthy all year, Higgins' production hit a plateau, and then failed to overly impress in the playoffs. Lats, who once again showed he has promise burying the puck, is still young. But certainly showed nothing from his play that would suggest to me he has earned more minutes and a more prominant role than Higgins. Especially not in the playoffs.

So, after all that mumbo jumbo, it seems to me that Lats is less likely to get placed on a higher line than Higgins, yet there is a slight chance they could be given similar roles. And it is certainly less likely that Lats ends up on the 1st or 2nd line if it means placing both Higgins AND Sergei only 3rd line minutes.

Basically it just falls in naturally, if I were Gainey, to start with the standard combinations we have seen in other posts involving Plekanec, Koivu, Kovalev, Tanguay, and two of the Kostys and Higgins. That leaves Lats on the 3rd as far as I'm concerned.

Atleast to start, or as a target. Of course chemistry and styles can mesh in unpredictable ways, so we'll see what happens.

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09-09-2008, 01:38 PM
  #85
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3rd line with Chipchura and either Higgins or Kostitsyn jr. Along with some time as 4th forward on PP.

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09-09-2008, 02:27 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Sure. You never know what will happen. But as Carbs, wouldn't you be more excited about, and thus more likely to try, combinations of the players who played the best for you the year before (and played well together)? (Assuming no Sundin, or whomever) I would be more likely to:

a) Keep Kovalev and Plekanec the most icetime possible. Your two best producers from the year before, who also played together mind you.
b) Give both Kostys all the opportunity to contribute as top producers. As much icetime as possible/they can handle.
c) Put Tanguay on one of the top 2 lines icetime-wise... duh.
d) Keep Saku as the #2 centre. Another duh.

Now, we're left basically with Higgins and Lats as the two who haven't been mentioned yet (worth mentioning). Despite being healthy all year, Higgins' production hit a plateau, and then failed to overly impress in the playoffs. Lats, who once again showed he has promise burying the puck, is still young. But certainly showed nothing from his play that would suggest to me he has earned more minutes and a more prominant role than Higgins. Especially not in the playoffs.

So, after all that mumbo jumbo, it seems to me that Lats is less likely to get placed on a higher line than Higgins, yet there is a slight chance they could be given similar roles. And it is certainly less likely that Lats ends up on the 1st or 2nd line if it means placing both Higgins AND Sergei only 3rd line minutes.

Basically it just falls in naturally, if I were Gainey, to start with the standard combinations we have seen in other posts involving Plekanec, Koivu, Kovalev, Tanguay, and two of the Kostys and Higgins. That leaves Lats on the 3rd as far as I'm concerned.

Atleast to start, or as a target. Of course chemistry and styles can mesh in unpredictable ways, so we'll see what happens.
See here's how i see it. A Chips-Lats-Sergei trio has two big vulnerabilities to me. 1) is lack of speed... 2) is lack of experience (two 21 year olds, a guy with 2 years exp and 2 guys with half a season).
Higgins as a veteran now can be put on that line in place of Lats and can solve both those problems. He can be given the responsibility for being the leader of the line, like Kovalev is with his and Koivu is with his line.

Carbo plays all of his first three lines pretty equally in terms of ice time too, so you aren't taking ice time away from Higgins.

What you need to do though is have Carbo sit down with Higgins and explain to him the philosophy though. You are on the third line to lead it. It is still expected to generate offence. You are not a purely defensive role, I still want the same great two way play. Its not a demotion... etc. This is all based on Higgins comments of changing his role in the few games he was pulled off Koivu's line last year.

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09-09-2008, 02:30 PM
  #87
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Now please take your head and smash it against a brick wall for about 3 hours!!!!! Higgins, S.Kostitsyn, Tanguay, Plekanec, Koivu, are all waaaaaayyyy ahead of Lats as far as finishing goes!

I don't get why people think Latendresse is such a good hockey player. If he was so good, then why didn't he play every game last year?? Why didn't he play on the top 2 lines? Why didn't he score 50 points or more???

These are all things that proven goal scorers do on a regular basis. Lats scored 20 goals in his first season and everybody thinks he is a superstar. The truth is he is a slow, out of shape kid that needs to lose the babyfat, get in shape and speed up his skating. Once he does those things, then he might deserve good icetime with some star players, but as long as he is going to continue to slow his line down, he will remain on the bottom 2 lines.

If he was saying among wingers, Lats is probably 5th, after Kovy, AKost, Tanguay and Higgins. A finisher is not someone who'll put a laser through. A finisher is just that, someone who puts it in, finishes the play, and in that case, as far as proven talent goes, Kovy, AKost, Tanguay and Higgins are better finishers at this moment.

If he was talking on the entire team, it is a total exageration, as we would have to add Pleks to the list and even Koivu. I mean, who ever saw Lats in a shootout? Finishers go into shootouts. So that would put Lats 6th or 7th on the entire team, after Kovy, Akost, Pleks, Tanguay, Higgins and maybe (for the "or") Koivu.

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09-09-2008, 02:41 PM
  #88
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Lats plays well with Koivu. Pleks and Higgins also have great chemistry. I could see Chips playing well with Higgins, but Chips and Lats would worry me.

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09-09-2008, 02:58 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beakermania View Post
Its not about demoting them... and its not about doing it just so Lats "has to get his goals"... its about what is best for the team.

There is an argument to be made that the team may be better off with
Tanguay - Koivu - Lats
Higgins - Chips - Sergei

then they would be with Lats on the third line and one of the other two on the second.

Its not saying Lats is better than Sergei or Higgins, it just may be the best way to set up the lines. Or it could be best to have Lats on the third. But I don't think we can automatically dismiss this lineup as being good for Lats and bad for the team, cause I don't think that it necessarily has to be the case. Its possible that it is best for all involved.

The biggest thing is winning, and we should be prepared to experiment in the preseason to see what type of lineup will give us more wins.

Heck even a lineup with
Lats - Pleks - Kovalev
Tanguay - Koivu - Andrei
Higgins - Chips - Sergei

Might be something to try too.... There are definitely arguments that could be made for trying something like this on paper. Would it work on the ice?? Can't knock it till you try it.

I'm totally with you for having 3 dangerous (more balanced) lines, instead of just 2 good potential offensive lines (with a 3rd line that is...not sure yet). I (like others)have no idea how effective that Lats - Laps - Sergei LINE can/will be? I wouldn't even mind if Lats doesn't reach the 20 goal plateau this year, AS LONG AS HE CREATES SOMETHING OUT THERE on a regular basis (he can be helpful if he wants to, but he really has to work on his consistency/intensity/being more aggressive, using his size effectively/confidence, and the tiresome one everyone knows...his skating/acceleration.

I'm all for trying/experimenting/tinkering, but I hope Carbo doesn't keep anyone on a line especially when it's obvious that one player is slowing down the line (ex: when Lats played with Koivu for a long period of time...Lats had many chances to attain 20goals, and not saying his chances are over, and they gave him plenty of chances to play with Koivu).

I agree that it's a great time to experiment (not even just the pre-season, but the first 10-20 games of the season, and more since the season is loooong). But, if you talk about experimenting, we can go on forever with also trying Sergei Kosts and/or Higgins at CENTER (for "insurance" purposes to cover our behind for that position, unless Sundin comes here in the middle of the season; and *knock on wood* against injuries to any of our centers).

Those lines (with Lats in them) in the above that you mentioned are great, IF...Lats can keep the tempo going. I remember seeing ONE line (when Koivu and Lats were together) that just wasn't working/clicking for approx. 15 games (or more) last year. Nothing happened whenver that line went on the ice (like it was going through the motions). Carbo cannot let that happen this year.

I agree with your philosophy of having (or trying to) have 3 (potential) dangerous lines. In this case, it seems that LATS is the answer (all up to him or the way Carbo uses him).

Right now (if I can get into Carbo's head!) Sergei will be on the 3rd line (they didn't get Tanguay for the 3rd line, and you also know everyone will say "no wonder no UFA's come here...we get Tanguay and he goes to the 3rd with Lapierre and Latendresse...", etc...). Now IF Sundin comes here, well...that's another topic! (a great one though!!).

That Higgs - Chips - Sergei line...I like it on paper (wonder how it would click on ice if given a chance, I love Chip's UPside). I'd like to see Chips on the 3rd (right away), but I really think that Carbo will start Chips on the 4th with Laraque and Kostopoulos (& sometimes Begin). The energy/grinder line...
Or else you can give Lapierre what he wants!: Laraque - Lapierre - Kostopoulos.

For now, it looks like we have 2 offensive lines and a 3rd that is not your usual kind of "3rd line" in Lats - Lapierre - S.Kosts (I'm hoping for the best, but I'm not sure how that line will do). It's quite a young line for a 3rd which is usually a defensive line but not sure what that line is? what is their task? defensive? offensive/defensive? a line of rejected 1st liners, 2nd liners?!!!(ex: S.Kosts, Lats).
If Tanguay weren't here (glad he is here), S.Kosts would be on the 1st or 2nd line, imo.

Anyways, we're already doing the lineups, and Carbo may have already made his mind up with lineups, but...you never know with that SUPER MATURE Max Pacioretty!! (maybe he'll pull a Sergei Kosts and play only 30-40 games in the AHL, and the rest might be history!).


To be continued later...!!


Last edited by Mr. Hab: 09-09-2008 at 05:28 PM.
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09-10-2008, 03:01 AM
  #90
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I'd park his ass in front of the frickin' net

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09-10-2008, 03:24 AM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beakermania View Post
See here's how i see it. A Chips-Lats-Sergei trio has two big vulnerabilities to me. 1) is lack of speed... 2) is lack of experience (two 21 year olds, a guy with 2 years exp and 2 guys with half a season).
Higgins as a veteran now can be put on that line in place of Lats and can solve both those problems. He can be given the responsibility for being the leader of the line, like Kovalev is with his and Koivu is with his line.

Carbo plays all of his first three lines pretty equally in terms of ice time too, so you aren't taking ice time away from Higgins.

What you need to do though is have Carbo sit down with Higgins and explain to him the philosophy though. You are on the third line to lead it. It is still expected to generate offence. You are not a purely defensive role, I still want the same great two way play. Its not a demotion... etc. This is all based on Higgins comments of changing his role in the few games he was pulled off Koivu's line last year.
Yeah, there's no way a Lats - Chips - Sergei line is what's on Carbs' sheet for day 1. I would suggest that Sergei is on one of those top 2 lines (whatever we end up calling them), while Higgins, Chips, Lats would form #3. I'd be patient with that line too. That has more possibilities for the future than any other combo we could put together, assuming Higgins is moving towards a 2-way role, away from a primary scoring source role, and someone expected to lead at least his line like a captain. Exactly the same as Chips. Then you have Lats, who unless he learns how to better compensate for his lack of instincts, will bounce back and forth between a secondary scoring line and a more energy-oriented and opportunistic line getting slightly less icetime.

The Kostys will, most likely, bounce around on top scoring lines, with Sergei possibly showing the same kind of promise that Higgins did a few years ago, but turn into a slightly more explosive and less steady type of player. Meaning maybe turning into a weird Koivu/Draper hybrid though less defensively effective, third line type player. Oh, but possibly still a winger.

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09-10-2008, 02:09 PM
  #92
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I'd put Latendresse wherever he deserves to be on the basis of his performance, not necessarily where he ranks on the basis of popularity.

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